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# Countersteering 101 - Page 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Yeah, the ability to focus clearly on the entry to the new turn too, also makes sense. I do a similar thing with a pause at neutral, mostly in teaching arc to arc. It's a mental regrouping opportunity before launching the proper movements to ensure a quality initiation of the new turn.
Care for some "Strong Neutral" anyone?

(Strong enough to stop the toppling effect of lateral/downhill momentum through transition.)
Boy you guys sure do know how to make things sound complicated!

Counter steering on a bike kicks the bottom out and puts the bike into a lean.

Counter steering on skis moves the skis out and puts the skier into an inclined (avoiding the use of leaning as some take this to mean banking - a whole different can of worms) position.

It's really quite simple. To turn, both the bike or the skier must lean or inclinate into the turn. That means they need to have their centre of mass inside the turn with reference to their point of contact with mother earth. This can be achieved by letting cm move inside while the point of contact stays where it is. It can be achieved by letting the cm stay where it is and moving the point of contact outside the turn (counter steering). It can be done, and often is done with a combination of both moves. Indeed it is usually achieved by using momentum and gravity to move the cm inside the turn while using "counter steering"

Although a nice test, using gravity alone along with a little push on the edges of a tipped ski is limited in it's speed of execution due to geometry and gravity. Being able to initiate a turn without counter steering is ok, but I wouldn't say moving the skis outside the turn in order to get a quicker turn is necessarily bad. It can often be much faster at speed.
TDK6, Again, I do not want to speak for Skidude but I do not believe the CSIA L4 parallel to traverse to parallel is intended to demonstrate any kind of preturn or unweighting movments but I could be mistaken? Perhaps skidude or one of the other CSIA guys here could clarify the intent of the demo?
Or we could just PM jdistefa since he reluctantly posts here.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman TDK6, Again, I do not want to speak for Skidude but I do not believe the CSIA L4 parallel to traverse to parallel is intended to demonstrate any kind of preturn or unweighting movments but I could be mistaken? Perhaps skidude or one of the other CSIA guys here could clarify the intent of the demo?
I dont think so eather. Im sure SD will give us feedback sooner or later. But a parallel to traverse turn can be performed with any kind of technique as long as its one isolated turn starting and ending with a traverse.

Lets make a list of tasks for people to videotape. Level certification could be held out of the public forum but with skiers approval the demos could be posted for everyone to see. Certifiers would be a buch of or one single epic ski instructor. Traverse to parallel could be one task.
http://www.snowproab.com/skipro/course_materials.htm

Click on the level 4 demos. Parallel with traverse is shown. If you preturn you will fail.
BegE, thank you. Great set of videos at that link.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE http://www.snowproab.com/skipro/course_materials.htm Click on the level 4 demos. Parallel with traverse is shown. If you preturn you will fail.
Bud, you are misstaken. In the video the parallel with traverse is a turn made by up-unweighting. It shows the following movement pattern:
- traverse in extended square position
- flex down and prepare the poleplant by reaching forward with your outside arm flexing knees bending upper body forward displacing hips back
- plant your pole as you extend for up-unweighting pushing your hips forwards and straightening your upper body
- steer your skis skidding through the turn and flex all the way through while maintaining a square stance
- end up completely flexed
- extend for traverse etc.

The reason I knew the parallel to traverse is done by up-unweighing is because I have seen the videos before and know how CSIA skiers ski and promote their system (very good system) and the fact that if you turn from a traverse, how else would you get momentum to initiate a skidded turn? Im sure all L1 CSIA instructors can do this movementpattern. How else would they be able to turn? In fact, a preturn or countersteering as we can call it in this thread I know for sure is much more difficult. And also has no major role in the CSIA teaching program (was not mentioned in the video).
I stand corrected TDK6, Though I believe it is possible to perform a parallel initiation from a traverse without a pole plant or an up motion (like a tree grows) rather an extension perpendicular to the slope, which I did not see in your demo where I saw a movement toward the uphill ski away from the turn apex?. I also envision the down hill weighted foot moving forward beginning the lead change as the extension begins which pulls the hips across the skis and releases the edges and then the extension begins. This is the focus I take anyway. I believe the goal as you know, is to keep all movements going in the direction of turn (a GO turn).

Obviously there are many ways to skin a cat! I too like the CSIA way because their mechanics are very clear and concise and leave no ambiguity to the requirements in their certification tasks. I am actually looking forward to being able to attend a CSIA event this season!
In the video I see the turn described by tdk6, but whether the turn is done with up-move and pivot or simply leaning into the new turn is not the point as I understood it. The point was that there was not turn in the other direction to initiate it.

In my free skiing it's all a matter of current speed and desired position. I'm free to choose if I want to move my skis over with "counter angulation" to get more lean sooner. How lucky I am not to be an ski instructor.
Bud - I dont think you fail the CSIA demo traverse to parallel only if you pre-turn. I think you fail it if you dont do it exactly like in the demo. For instance if you make a jump-turn. Or if you carve, stem or wedge.

Im not sure if I understand exactly what kind of movements you use in your example. Care to explain it more indepth. Maybe in the light of "countersteering".
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost In the video I see the turn described by tdk6, but whether the turn is done with up-move and pivot or simply leaning into the new turn is not the point as I understood it. The point was that there was not turn in the other direction to initiate it.
Exactly (see my reply to Bud)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost In my free skiing it's all a matter of current speed and desired position. I'm free to choose if I want to move my skis over with "counter angulation" to get more lean sooner. How lucky I am not to be an ski instructor.
I have not heard about "counter angulation" before. Im a creative person so I suspect you are talking about a so called "upside down" position. Where you form angulation in the upper C way before you hit apex straight after transition. Typical if you ski faast. Do you ?
OK. Since we are talking about counter steering or maybe a broader interpretation, "counter movements", the parallel initiation from a traverse could be a good analogy here.

Again, I do not know the specific mechanics of the CSIA demo so what I am describing may not correlate with CSIA's demo.

Starting with a good traverse position (Bob Barnes neutral) where the uphill ski, knee, hip, shoulder, hand are all slightly ahead, you will begin the edge change by sliding the downhill ski ahead while maintaining pressure on it. This squares the hips and pulls the com over the skis. As this movement is begun the extension begins as the skis flatten and follows through as the new edge angle develops. The weight transfer also begins once the skis are passing through flat (not before). With the fluid movement of all these parts in concert, the parallel initiation happens very nicely. The keys here are the timing of the weight transfer and the lead change (or counter movement).

The similarity to the countersteering topic is that the skis continue on the traverse momentarily as the com moves toward the new turn apex then follow. There is no preturn just two opposing vectors for the feet and the com.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman OK. Since we are talking about counter steering or maybe a broader interpretation, "counter movements", the parallel initiation from a traverse could be a good analogy here. Again, I do not know the specific mechanics of the CSIA demo so what I am describing may not correlate with CSIA's demo. Starting with a good traverse position (Bob Barnes neutral) where the uphill ski, knee, hip, shoulder, hand are all slightly ahead, you will begin the edge change by sliding the downhill ski ahead while maintaining pressure on it. This squares the hips and pulls the com over the skis. As this movement is begun the extension begins as the skis flatten and follows through as the new edge angle develops. The weight transfer also begins once the skis are passing through flat (not before). With the fluid movement of all these parts in concert, the parallel initiation happens very nicely. The keys here are the timing of the weight transfer and the lead change (or counter movement). The similarity to the countersteering topic is that the skis continue on the traverse momentarily as the com moves toward the new turn apex then follow. There is no preturn just two opposing vectors for the feet and the com.
Would not the skis continue straight forward on their new edges in a situation like that? How do they get into a skidd?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 ...if you turn from a traverse, how else would you get momentum to initiate a skidded turn?
Easy - and no un-weighing, flexion or extension are needed!

From a perfectly balanced position during a traverse the skier can simply implement Independent Leg Steering (ILS) to initiate the beginning of a skidded turn.

If ILS is done progressively the skier will start their turn gradually (no pivot) with no need to extend, un-weight, flex, counter-steer, nor anything else to drive a direction change.

Tdk6,
To me, your recommendation to use an un-weighing move suggests the skier needs to use their upper body to initiate the turn via upper body rotation as out skis don't need to be un-weighted at all to begin an Open Parallel (skidded) turn.

Whether that specific CSIA Task permits ILS to drive the turn or not I've no idea but I suspect they wouldn't want to see an upward & downhill lurch of the upper-body to start the turn.

.ma
Come on now TDK6, with forward momentum, a fall line, gravity and the ski's taper angle, they will turn to seek the fall line rather than go straight.

I am not just making this up, I have actually spent time doing this and it works. It does take practice and you may feel like you will fall over if you do it, but you may be surprised? Keep weight on the downhill foot as you push it forward to draw the hips across, don't fight it, just let the hips fall across then extend aggressively.

I can't seem to reload your video on this computer for some reason but if I remember the image, you are not allowing your hips to fall across the skis before you begin extension, consequently I saw a shift toward the uphill ski, a lifting of the down hill ski and an anticipation release to create the rotary which turned the new outside ski into the fall line? I could be wrong and will have to look again when I get home to the other computer.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 Exactly (see my reply to Bud) I have not heard about "counter angulation" before. Im a creative person so I suspect you are talking about a so called "upside down" position. Where you form angulation in the upper C way before you hit apex straight after transition. Typical if you ski faast. Do you ?
Maybe I've just coined a new term. I' thinking of "counter steering" by initiating a sharp right turn of the skis, using angulation to engage the left edges to move the skis into a turn to the left, but not the cm, so that the skis are then in a good position to engage the right edges with the cm in a position with a lot of inclination and make that hard right turn.

I used to ski fast, so fast I would be afraid of making any such sudden moves. I've slowed down a lot as I have gotten older.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by michaelA Tdk6, To me, your recommendation to use an un-weighing move suggests
Recommendation. I thought it was a description of the video.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 When we need to make a turn without momentum we need to PT in order to turn using the CS consept.
Why?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Care for some "Strong Neutral" anyone? (Strong enough to stop the toppling effect of lateral/downhill momentum through transition.)
BigE, care to explain where that strength comes from. I'm pretty sure you know.

Quote:
 From a perfectly balanced position during a traverse the skier can simply implement Independent Leg Steering (ILS) to initiate the beginning of a skidded turn. If ILS is done progressively the skier will start their turn gradually (no pivot) with no need to extend, un-weight, flex, counter-steer, nor anything else to drive a direction change.
Michael, exactly. Though I just call it steering. Somehow, I think tdk6 knows this too. Pivoted turn initiations are the intermediate nemesis. The more we can focus on and teach this clean entry alternative, the better.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by michaelA Easy - and no un-weighing, flexion or extension are needed! From a perfectly balanced position during a traverse the skier can simply implement Independent Leg Steering (ILS) to initiate the beginning of a skidded turn. If ILS is done progressively the skier will start their turn gradually (no pivot) with no need to extend, un-weight, flex, counter-steer, nor anything else to drive a direction change.
Somehow I have a hard time believing that my skis would be turning simply if I shifted some weight onto the outside ski. Or maybe they would. But I suspect I could not turn as tight as if I up-unweighted or countersteered. 3 months to go before season starts.... ratts!

A video of ILS would be much appreciated. We have in this thread mentioned 4 ways of making a turn from a traverse:
1 countersteering
2 phantom move
3 up-unweighting
4 ILS

Comes to mind..... there is an old method that was very common in the 80s at least and that was to aggressively relese the outside ski and pick it up in the air at transition. I have later analyzed the effect to be an up-unweighting move where some unweighing takes plase at the moment the upward movement of that old outside ski is slowed down and stopped. Not much but just enough to trigger steering. No rotation or flexing/extending needed. It looked very smooth. Very hard to get rid of.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by michaelA Tdk6, To me, your recommendation......
What Ghost said, it was only a description of what I saw in the video.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by michaelA Whether that specific CSIA Task permits ILS to drive the turn or not I've no idea but I suspect they wouldn't want to see an upward & downhill lurch of the upper-body to start the turn.
I also dont know for a fact if this CSIA task permits ILS to drive the turn or not but Im pritty positive that it doesent. I suspect that the task is to be performed as in the video.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost Maybe I've just coined a new term. I' thinking of "counter steering" by initiating a sharp right turn of the skis, using angulation to engage the left edges to move the skis into a turn to the left, but not the cm, so that the skis are then in a good position to engage the right edges with the cm in a position with a lot of inclination and make that hard right turn. I used to ski fast, so fast I would be afraid of making any such sudden moves. I've slowed down a lot as I have gotten older.
Your description nails the countersteering consept perfectly . Thanks for the description.

If you never slow down you never grow old
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman Come on now TDK6, with forward momentum, a fall line, gravity and the ski's taper angle, they will turn to seek the fall line rather than go straight. I am not just making this up, I have actually spent time doing this and it works. It does take practice and you may feel like you will fall over if you do it, but you may be surprised? Keep weight on the downhill foot as you push it forward to draw the hips across, don't fight it, just let the hips fall across then extend aggressively. I can't seem to reload your video on this computer for some reason but if I remember the image, you are not allowing your hips to fall across the skis before you begin extension, consequently I saw a shift toward the uphill ski, a lifting of the down hill ski and an anticipation release to create the rotary which turned the new outside ski into the fall line? I could be wrong and will have to look again when I get home to the other computer.
At the present Im not really familiar with the ILS method as you guys describe it so I need some on snow time to figure it out later on this winter. In the mean time it would be very nice to see a video where it is being performed.

Your MA of my video seems to be correct. Its not how I normally ski so Im no expert on it. Its simply a struggling demo where I use the movements you described except there is no "consious" rotary involved. I would say it resembles ILS a bit because weight is shifted to the old inside ski and as tipping in the direction of the old outside ski into the new turn takes place new outside ski steering starts to happen.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman Why?
Thats what my world looked like when I posted .
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Michael, exactly. Though I just call it steering. Somehow, I think tdk6 knows this too. Pivoted turn initiations are the intermediate nemesis. The more we can focus on and teach this clean entry alternative, the better.
Could it be that steering is a more general term for steering while ILS is a consept where both legs have been given precise tasks. For instance a wedged turn could be steered but it would not be ILS. ILS is among other things parallel turning. Correct me if Im wrong. Pivoted turn initiations are indeed the nemesis of intermediate skiers. Correct me if Im wrong but isnt pivoted turn entries coupled to up-unweighting? Stemmed, pivotted and heavily rotated.
ILS from a traverse will start a turn but isn't the real mechanism creating the turn our progressive ILS which draws our CoM in the direction of the new turn and onto our new edges? Where ILS developes a lateral componenet to it. Movement in two planes at once.

And something else is needed for upunweighting to create a turn from a traverse as well. No turn at all will happen if upunweighting is simpy done by itself. We either need to pivot the ski changing the steering angle along with the location of the CoM to bear on the new edges, or we need to add a directional component to the upunweighting movement. A diagaonal or lateral direction to it that places the CoM inside of the ski edge, or at least moves it to bear over the other edge of the ski.

This is what all these different mechanisms being discussed have in common right? The ability through a realease of the CoM or by a direct manipulation of the CoM through the kinetic chain, we get the body or CoM to move in the direction of the new turn.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick BigE, care to explain where that strength comes from. I'm pretty sure you know.
The core.

Of course, how you use momentum from the previous turn plays a huge role in the success or failure of being fully recentered at neutral. ( By fully recentered, I mean all of fore/aft, lateral, and rotational recentering. ) But nonetheless, it's the strength of the core that allows us to control that momentum and spend some time in neutral.

Without that strength, we are doomed to flop from one side to the other of the back seat. Exactly what you'd expect from those that are very out of shape.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB ILS from a traverse will start a turn but isn't the real mechanism creating the turn our progressive ILS which draws our CoM in the direction of the new turn and onto our new edges? Where ILS developes a lateral componenet to it. Movement in two planes at once. And something else is needed for upunweighting to create a turn from a traverse as well. No turn at all will happen if upunweighting is simpy done by itself. We either need to pivot the ski changing the steering angle along with the location of the CoM to bear on the new edges, or we need to add a directional component to the upunweighting movement. A diagaonal or lateral direction to it that places the CoM inside of the ski edge, or at least moves it to bear over the other edge of the ski. This is what all these different mechanisms being discussed have in common right? The ability through a realease of the CoM or by a direct manipulation of the CoM through the kinetic chain, we get the body or CoM to move in the direction of the new turn.
Im a bit lost in translations here and not much of what you say makes any sence to me (my fault). However, its correct that simply up-unweighting will not start a turn as an isolated move by itself. It shows in one of the CSIA videos where the skier extends and flexes repetedly during the traverse without turning. You need to add a little bit of rotation to pivot the skis into a skidd. This will start steering and turning.
TDK6 I don't believe rotary imput is necessary to add to upunweighting to facilitate a turn. The key element as stated by RicB is that the Com moves to the inside of the new turn.

In your demo it looks like you are using upunweighting to facilatate your hopping from your uphill edge to the inside edge and pivoting aids this movement, unfortunately your com is not moving into the turn, rather you are moving your foot under your com. This is a common problem for many skier who lack the ability to let the com move across the skis.

This is why the timing of any upunweighting (if you feel it is even necessary) or simply any extension, needs to happen a split second after the com has moved over the base of support or the path of the com is disrupted and we see straight lines between turns.

I think you would find that an accurate projection of the com would completely eliminate any need or urge to upunweight.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman TDK6 I don't believe rotary imput is necessary to add to upunweighting to facilitate a turn. The key element as stated by RicB is that the Com moves to the inside of the new turn. In your demo it looks like you are using upunweighting to facilatate your hopping from your uphill edge to the inside edge and pivoting aids this movement, unfortunately your com is not moving into the turn, rather you are moving your foot under your com. This is a common problem for many skier who lack the ability to let the com move across the skis. This is why the timing of any upunweighting (if you feel it is even necessary) or simply any extension, needs to happen a split second after the com has moved over the base of support or the path of the com is disrupted and we see straight lines between turns. I think you would find that an accurate projection of the com would completely eliminate any need or urge to upunweight.
A video would be informative. If you say you dont need any un-weighting when you turn with ILS then what happens when you link turns and you have lots of rebound? Will that affect ILS in any way?
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