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# Countersteering 101 - Page 2

This is actually getting interesting:

But here is some food for thought.

FACT 1: In the CSIA L4 exam you need to do a manuever called parrallel with traverse. It is really as simple as it sounds...parrallel turn into a traverse, into a parallel turn, into traverse, repeat.

Sounds easy doesnt it?,....trust me, it isnt. This manuever has one of the highest fail rates on the exam. The reason it is so tough is the traverse makes it impossible to use the forces, or energy or momentum from the last turn to create the next one. It all has to be done with proper skills. Put another way, we all know that speed can be used to hide skill deficinecies...parrallel with traverse (pw/t)prevents that....no hiding possible.

FACT 2: If you "pre-turn" to start the turn on your pw/t you will fail. If you end the turn with an "oversteer" to get your skis under you, you will fail. To pass you must be able to go straight in, and come straight out.

Now having read a few of the posts here, I can see what you mean about the cross-over or end of one turn has the same effect of a countersteer....BUT is it necessary?

Well pw/t proves it isnt, and I think intuitavley most people here agree.

So the next question is...is countersteering, or oversteering detrimental? Or put another way, is it bad or inefficient to rely on the previous turn to assist with getting the mass across the skis?

I think this is pretty tough to definativley answer...but hey I'm Skidude...so I'll give it a shot.

Oversteering is bad. The reason is the act send your feet up away from where they will eventually need to go at a time or place in the turn (ie the top) where pressure is already very low. An oversteer will make it lower still, probably too low to effectivley get the skis to come around quick enough to prevent the skier from ending up caught inside. Not good.

This however is not to say the using the previous turns momentum to facilitate the mass moving across is bad. In fact I would strongly suggest it is a key part of efficeint skiing. However there is more then one way to skin a cat, and I think the efficeint way is through ILE/OLR or Angulation as MichealA pointed out. The Angulation idea is how I always thought of it...funny this is the firts time, to my knowledge it has ever been mentioned on Epic.
Wow, bit more of an 'experiment' than I had in mind!

Now that you mention it though I suppose there is also a kind of 'counter-steering' that directly applies to sharp ruts, lumps, divots and protruding rocks - as in steering the opposite way these little buggers try to pitch the front wheel ( and you ).

.ma
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude FACT 1: In the CSIA L4 exam you need to do a manuever called parrallel with traverse. It is really as simple as it sounds...parrallel turn into a traverse, into a parallel turn, into traverse, repeat.
Out of curiosity, what slope angle is this performed on? And at what forward speed? And what turn radius is expected?

A mild slope would permit the skier to tip the skis sufficiently to engage the downhill edge (via angulation) without losing lateral balance and thereby permit initiation with tip engagement. A steep slope at slow speeds might block that method, but would surely permit the skier to flatten the skis and use gravity's pull downhill to help initiate the turn. Can't imagine why this task is difficult for L3's aiming for L4. Do you wax their skis with XC Grip Wax first?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude It all has to be done with proper skills.
Exactly what do you propose are the proper skills to be successful in this?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude FACT 2: If you "pre-turn" to start the turn on your pw/t you will fail. If you end the turn with an "oversteer" to get your skis under you, you will fail. To pass you must be able to go straight in, and come straight out.
Around here we have a Level 2 Exam Task that relies on the skier not doing Any kind of steering (hop ski to ski in a straight run). Just because we can script a specific Exam Task that requires the absence of a particular pattern doesn't make that pattern inherently 'wrong' or unacceptable in other tasks and circumstances. Heck, Exam Tasks which try to isolate a single skill for display on its own seem to be all the rage in PSIA.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude ...and I think intuitavley most people here agree.
Now That is actually pretty cool. Teach me to read minds Skidude

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude Oversteering is bad. The reason is the act send your feet up away from where they will eventually need to go at a time or place in the turn (ie the top) where pressure is already very low. An oversteer will make it lower still, probably too low to effectivley get the skis to come around quick enough to prevent the skier from ending up caught inside. Not good.

I think I could probably implement ANY movement pattern and deliberately create badness out of it but that doesn't mean the pattern itself is inherently bad, just me being bad. And I do so enjoy being bad at times, don't you?

.ma
Wow kinda hard to respond to these multi posters...but i'll do my best

Quote:
 Originally Posted by michaelA Out of curiosity, what slope angle is this performed on? And at what forward speed? And what turn radius is expected?
Blue run....groomed...say "true blue"..ie not a steep blue, or a gentle blue. Turn radius is "medium"....speed is whatever you want....most go at "medium" speed...think of it like basic parallel with a long traverse in the middle.

Quote:
 A mild slope would permit the skier to tip the skis sufficiently to engage the downhill edge (via angulation) without losing lateral balance and thereby permit initiation with tip engagement. A steep slope at slow speeds might block that method, but would surely permit the skier to flatten the skis and use gravity's pull downhill to help initiate the turn. Can't imagine why this task is difficult for L3's aiming for L4. Do you wax their skis with XC Grip Wax first?
Well, just doing the maneuver...ie a medium radius turn at medium speed on a blue groomer with a traverse is not hard....however you cant hide improper mechanics either, so "faking it" wont work....you can either execute the proper mechanics, or you cant.

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 Exactly what do you propose are the proper skills to be successful in this?
Well the trick is really about proper turn intiation, and the skills incompased in that: they are mainly stance and balance, pivoting, edging....the hardest part seems executing a proper pivot and then the proper blending of these 3 skills.

Quote:
 Around here we have a Level 2 Exam Task that relies on the skier not doing Any kind of steering (hop ski to ski in a straight run). Just because we can script a specific Exam Task that requires the absence of a particular pattern doesn't make that pattern inherently 'wrong' or unacceptable in other tasks and circumstances. Heck, Exam Tasks which try to isolate a single skill for display on its own seem to be all the rage in PSIA.
Intresting...but I dont see the relevance here. Pw/t is not about isolating a particular skill at all. It is about blending them, which is what good skiing is. You are right thou, taking somthing out for a exam drill is doesnt automatically make it wrong....but it should make you think, and ask why was that done?

I tried to explain why it was bad, ultimatley because it will likely put the skier too far inside.

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 Now That is actually pretty cool. Teach me to read minds Skidude
One step at a time Micheal, first I am working on teaching you guys to read the dictionary...second and third will be to teach you guys how to ski and teach skiing. Fourth will be the mindreading.

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 Didn't quite follow this. OK, I did follow the 'Counter-steering Is Bad' part but not so much the explanation for its badness. I think I could probably implement ANY movement pattern and deliberately create badness out of it but that doesn't mean the pattern itself is inherently bad, just me being bad. And I do so enjoy being bad at times, don't you? .ma
First I would only enjoy being bad if you were going to spank me after...snookums....

As for why oversteer is bad...well I think you first need to understand why ILE/OLR is good. If both get the same result (ie move the mass inside the next turn), but ILE/OLR uses less effort, results in less of an "upmove" which allows the skis to engage the new turn sooner, then wouldnt that be better?

Oversteer as I understand it, is about getting things moving in the right direction, TDK is pointing out a key reason is for it on bikes is because they cant ILE or OLR, I think he may have a point there. But people can ILE/OLR...so shouldnt we use the most efficeint means possible?

ILE/OLR is actually not as easy to master as people think. Try some pw/t and you will see for yourself.

Intresting side....trains, passenger and freight, use ILE/OLR concepts to turn. You dont see tracks laid with a "preturn or courter turn" in them. Instead they use superelevation in the tracks, this superelevation is approached by what is known as a "spiral"...ie the outside track goes up (ILE) while the inside track goes down (OLR) to transition from the tangent track to match the superelevated curve. Really modern trains, like high speed passenger services even tilt, like a skier above the tracks.....

Anyway not sure if that is clearer or not....
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 Oversteering is bad. The reason is the act send your feet up away from where they will eventually need to go at a time or place in the turn (ie the top) where pressure is already very low. An oversteer will make it lower still, probably too low to effectivley get the skis to come around quick enough to prevent the skier from ending up caught inside. Not good.
Who said "send the feet up and away"?

I don't think the above bolded statement is necessarily true. A skillful skier should be able to project the com forward and to the inside of the new turn at the appropriate vector to pressure the shovels. I wish I could paste a video of Shanzy here from the National D team try outs in Mammoth this spring where he was skiing some very gnarly frozen chicken heads and still making beautiful turn entries demonstrating what we are talking about here. He was bending the skis very early in the top of the turn with his com going toward the apex and his feet simultaneously twisting away and tipping into the turn. This can be used WITH ILE, OLR.

If we can't agree on whether this is countersteering or not is more likely just the image we individulally hold in our minds and not the actual mechanics of what is happening in good turns.

I really like the task of parallel turns to traverse and traverse into paralllel turns. We would use a task of making the slowest speed parallel turns you could and maintain a parallel turn entry. Again this isolates skill from fudge.
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 Originally Posted by bud heishman Who said "send the feet up and away"? I don't think the above bolded statement is necessarily true. A skillful skier should be able to project the com forward and to the inside of the new turn at the appropriate vector to pressure the shovels. I wish I could paste a video of Shanzy here from the National D team try outs in Mammoth this spring where he was skiing some very gnarly frozen chicken heads and still making beautiful turn entries demonstrating what we are talking about here. He was bending the skis very early in the top of the turn with his com going toward the apex and his feet simultaneously twisting away and tipping into the turn. If we can't agree on whether this is countersteering or not is more likely just the image we individulally hold in our minds and not the actual mechanics of what is happening in good turns. I really like the task of parallel turns to traverse and traverse into paralllel turns. We would use a task of making the slowest speed parallel turns you could and maintain a parallel turn entry. Again this isolates skill from fudge.
Well hard to say....I took the term "over steer" to mean to steer the feet more then you needed to....or put another way, continue steering them past the point of where you ulitimatley want them to go...or up and away from where you want them to go..."up as in more up the hill the and away from where you are going"

I wish you had some video too...I would be surprised to see a high level skier consistently showing "oversteer" or "countersteering" to get the mass moving inside. We have better options.
Can I ask a really dumb question?

What is steering?

I do all these things when I ski, but dont use handlebars or a steering wheel. I'm pretty sure steering is a piece of it, but when we talk of steering what are we saying? Rolling anlkles? Physical rotary? Gimme a break! I grew up on snowplows and short swing.
Maybe "over steer" is not the best analogy to use here? To do what I am suggesting is not "over" doing anything rather a very precise movement to optimize the top of the turns which involves the simultaneous twisting and tipping of the feet and ankles to engage the edges and help move the com inside the turn arc. Again so there is no confusion, the twisting I am referring to is NOT into the turn but away from the intended turn and is slight but very affective to early edge engagement and getting the com inside the new turn.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman Maybe "over steer" is not the best analogy to use here? To do what I am suggesting is not "over" doing anything rather a very precise movement to optimize the top of the turns which involves the simultaneous twisting and tipping of the feet and ankles to engage the edges and help move the com inside the turn arc. Again so there is no confusion, the twisting I am referring to is NOT into the turn but away from the intended turn and is slight but very affective to early edge engagement and getting the com inside the new turn.
Got any proof of that? Sure the rest is true...but that italic part isnt. It is infact the opposite of true. ILE/OLR will produce much earlier edge engagment. That is why they are the method used by top skiers and taught by knowledagble pros.
But can ILE/OLR be combined with a rolling of the ankles?

I think, the premise is that the action of engaging the edge through ankle/ foot movements is a barely perceptible counter motion
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude Well the trick is really about proper turn intiation, and the skills incompased in that: they are mainly stance and balance, pivoting, edging....the hardest part seems executing a proper pivot and then the proper blending of these 3 skills.
So, the proper (expected) mechanism then is a pivot entry? Quick pivot or progressive pivot (ie, pivot to an edge and go or rely on momentum across the slope to round out the top of the turn.) I'm curious because if 'progressive' then that was pretty much our criteria for the L1 Exams this last spring. We looked for Easy Blue terrain though.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Cirquerider What is steering?
That's where you take a herd of Bulls and make them Non-Bulls...

.ma
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 Originally Posted by Cirquerider But can ILE/OLR be combined with a rolling of the ankles? I think, the premise is that the action of engaging the edge through ankle/ foot movements is a barely perceptible counter motion
Well...you do extend the ankles to intiate a turn...so you could argue that is pushing away....however, combined with pivoting, which is pulling in, or edging in arc to arc, the skis are also pulling in....where as with motorbikes, the front wheel ACTUALLY moves the other way....this isnt the case in good skiing.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 This is actually getting interesting: But here is some food for thought. FACT 1: In the CSIA L4 exam you need to do a manuever called parrallel with traverse. It is really as simple as it sounds...parrallel turn into a traverse, into a parallel turn, into traverse, repeat. Sounds easy doesnt it?,....trust me, it isnt. This manuever has one of the highest fail rates on the exam. The reason it is so tough is the traverse makes it impossible to use the forces, or energy or momentum from the last turn to create the next one. It all has to be done with proper skills. Put another way, we all know that speed can be used to hide skill deficinecies...parrallel with traverse (pw/t)prevents that....no hiding possible.

Parallel with Traverse
is a good drill, one I do at the beginning of every ski day. But I'm surprised to hear that it's a stumbling block for many L4 candidates.

I've worked on this in a group lesson with 5 other strong intermediate skiers, but it was called a different name (target tipping.) The same rigid requirement of zero use of momentum from the previous turn or pre-positioning of the skis was imposed. I've encountered several instructors who use this drill successfully with students who have much less experience than would be typical of a L4 candidate.

Success at this drill pretty much guarantees quality carving in the top half of the turn long before the fall lline if you're carving and well-balanced short turns if you're not. "Oversteer", pre-turn, or not ,,, it doesn't matter much what you do in that category if you can make efficient transitions without crutches as tested in this drill.
OK, I might have some Proof for Bud to support his statement.

If a skier only uses OLR then their body topples to the side at a rate determined by Gravity and the placement of the uphill foot.

If a skier only uses ILE then their body topples to the side at a rate determined by the rate of uphill leg extension plus Gravity and the placement of the uphill foot.

If a skier only uses counter-steering then their body topples to the side at a rate determined by their forward travel speed, old-turn radius, Plus Gravity - and how long they continue to counter-steer.

All three mechanisms cause the CM to migrate across the skis - but the last is the only one that includes an effortless and automatic mechanism that can actually accelerate the crossover with no added skier effort - they just need to 'wait' a brief moment longer for the skis to travel a bit further out of lateral alignment with the CM. Highly Efficient if you ask me.

As to edge-angle increase (at turn entry) all three mechanisms do this but only the last (counter-steering) provides an automatic (and exponentially accelerated) edge-angle change component. As the feet continue to turn and the body continues to diverge then the whole skier system is rapidly tilting - and the rate of tilting increases exponentially the longer the skier maintains counter-steering. This translates into a greater amount of edge-angle change (per second of action) vs each of the other mechanisms...

I now think it could be proved mathematically. And before anyone raises the question of WC Racing, yes, I think they already do this. It's so automatic that I can't see why they wouldn't since they're generally in a hurry to get from high-edge-angle on one side to high-edge-angle on the side.

.ma

PS: Regarding that Drill, when we say "Zero Momentum from the old turn" I suspect we're talking about zero momentum across the skis (lateral) rather than zero momentum all together...? Having momentum along the traversing direction helps a lot.
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 Originally Posted by michaelA OK, I might have some Proof for Bud to support his statement. If a skier only uses OLR then their body topples to the side at a rate determined by Gravity and the placement of the uphill foot. If a skier only uses ILE then their body topples to the side at a rate determined by the rate of uphill leg extension plus Gravity and the placement of the uphill foot. If a skier only uses counter-steering then their body topples to the side at a rate determined by their forward travel speed, old-turn radius, Plus Gravity - and how long they continue to counter-steer. All three mechanisms cause the CM to migrate across the skis - but the last is the only one that includes an effortless and automatic mechanism that can actually accelerates the crossover with no added skier effort - they just need to 'wait' a brief moment longer for the skis to travel a bit further out of lateral alignment with the CM. Highly Efficient if you ask me. As to edge-angle increase (at turn entry) all three mechanisms do this but only the last (counter-steering) provides an automatic (and exponentially accelerated) edge-angle change component. As the feet continue to turn and the body continues to diverge then the the whole skier system is rapidly tilting - and the rate of tilting increases exponentially the longer the skier maintains counter-steering. This translates into a greater amount of edge-angle change (per second of action) vs each of the other mechanisms... I now think it could be proved mathematically. And before anyone raises the question of WC Racing, yes, I think they already do this. It's so automatic that I can't see why they wouldn't since they're generally in a hurry to get from high-edge-angle on one side to high-edge-angle on the side. .ma
I dont know what to do here.....so OLR/ILE isnt effected by my bold bits, huh? Only countersteer you say. Good grief.

Oh ya...for those who care...you missed the key factor...momentum.

Nice chatting with you guys.
OK, I'll bite... what does momentum have to do with differentiating between these three possibilities? I don't think there are any Rabbits to be found in that hat but then, you might surprise me.

In my view pre-existing momentum applies equally to all three transition mechanisms so I see no need to list it as a difference. I suppose I could have left 'Gravity' out as well since that doesn't change either but then OLR wouldn't have had any dependencies for me to list so it seemed appropriate to mention it. Whatever momentum exists (both forward momentum and lateral momentum) at the moment we're experimenting with should exist equally in each experiment if we are honestly comparing identical turns where the only thing we're trying to measure is the difference credited to each mechanism.

So Skidude: Assuming the skier is making a medium radius turn and draws out transition for a brief moment (as in your stated drill above) and the skier chooses at that moment to use ILE, OLR or Counter-Steering to drive new-turn entry...

In your view how exactly does existing forward and/or lateral momentum get affected by extending the old inside leg (ILE)? Me? I'm stating that lateral momentum is increased (say from zero) only by the force of the extension combined with the pull of Gravity (just as I stated above). I don't believe forward momentum matters to ILE.

Also, in your view how exactly does existing forward and/or lateral momentum get affected by retracting the old outside leg (OLR)? Me? I'm stating that lateral momentum is increased (say from zero) only by the force of Gravity (again, just as I stated above). Once more, I don't believe forward momentum matters to OLR.

(All three of these tipping mechanisms depend on exactly where the feet are but for the sake of simplicity we'll specify that the left & right feet are always the same distance apart and side-by-side in all three examples. We'll also specify that the initial relationship of both feet to the skier's CM are all the same in each experiment.)

- Be sure to remember that in our skiing experiment that act of traversing for a moment pretty much eliminates any momentum down the hill so we can ignore that component (which is why I choose to label it as starting from zero).

Finally, let's also not play any games like saying, "But that's not real skiing" or anything like that because we're looking to compare these mechanisms in as much isolation as we can get. Let's just stick to discussion of the concepts as presented so we can understand exactly what you are proposing as being different from what I've stated about efficiency and rapidity to higher edge-angles for the three mechanisms.

I must admit though, I'm really curious how forward travel speed matters to the ILE and OLR mechanisms. I'm also curious how Turn Radius matters to either of them as well.
Got my pencil in hand all set to handle your Truth.

.ma

PS: Hmmm, I just thought of another Huge impact we gain from counter-steering that is unavailable in ILE and OLR... Guess we can talk about that after we get through the matter above.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 Got any proof of that? Sure the rest is true...but that italic part isnt. It is infact the opposite of true. ILE/OLR will produce much earlier edge engagment. That is why they are the method used by top skiers and taught by knowledagble pros.
Dude, think about how pronation and supination are directly tied to eversion and inversion. then reference these movements to finishing a turn. As we finish the previous turn and move through transiition into the next turn, keeping the feet subtly rotating in the direction of the old turn as we move into the new turn will cause the new outside foot to everyt and pronate and the new inside foot to supinate and invert. This sets us up for earlier loading phase of the outside foot combines with earlier edge engagement.

Here's a little quote from a long ago discussion with DavidM.

Quote:
 Now, letâ€™s just think about this for a moment. In a skiing situation the foot would be turning away from the hill prior to contact with the snow. The forces of making contact would begin to drive the rotation of the foot into pronation (into the hill) simply as a result of our weight pushing the foot against the ground (read â€˜snowâ€™). Remember that this is the new outside leg of a turn here. Is anyone going to suggest that this a bad thing? If the ground were sloped across the line of travel so that the inner aspect of the foot made contact first then the forces set up would cause the foot to rotate even more in the direction of supination. Some would argue that this would certainly happen in skiing. True â€“ unless a way can be found to make the outer aspect of the new foot contact the snow first. [I think nolo knows the answer to this issue] If we can start this movement then it would seem that we could drive the edge of the outside ski into the hill by doing nothing more than aligning our COG in the right place through our foot. And remember that the foot does not like working on a sloped surface. In view of this it would seem that if anything we would want to maximize the process of pronation rather than preventing it. Yet, the current wisdom in skiing is that pronation must be prevented at any cost. Principle: When the foot makes contact with a surface that provides a source of resistance (i.e. it pushes back) the foot will always rotate on its axis away from the border of the aspect of the foot that makes contact with the ground first.
How I view this is that we are encouraging these important foot mechanics to happen through subtle ankle movements and foor rotations in the direction of the old turn, and not waiting entirely for downward force and alignament to accomplish this. We are giving a helping hand, or should I say foot to the process. Or as Bud said,
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 the twisting I am referring to is NOT into the turn but away from the intended turn and is slight but very affective to early edge engagement and getting the com inside the new turn.
Further thoughts.

Really in my mind we are talking about the role of gravity's downward force, ground reaction force, the foot's adaption to these two and how we can expedite the foots alignment to the big toe side of the foot through subtle foot rotation. Because we can utilize this mechanism before momentum change forces come into play and do their job on the foot we are getting a jump on foot alignment and edge engagement.

Another way to view this Dude is that as the foot pronates it rotates away from the midline of the body. If we take this to the point that we are starting a new turn we have the slope to move into but that slope under the big toe side of the foot is a ways away from contact for the forces to have their impact on the pronation process. At this point we have two focuses or movements to bring the foot into pronation faster and engage the edge earlier, tipping the foot, and everting of the foot by continuing the foot on it course of the last turn by moving the toes up the hill away from the direction of the new turn. In other words everting the foot as we tip it.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 This is actually getting interesting: But here is some food for thought. FACT 1: In the CSIA L4 exam you need to do a manuever called parrallel with traverse. It is really as simple as it sounds...parrallel turn into a traverse, into a parallel turn, into traverse, repeat. Sounds easy doesnt it?,....trust me, it isnt. This manuever has one of the highest fail rates on the exam. The reason it is so tough is the traverse makes it impossible to use the forces, or energy or momentum from the last turn to create the next one. It all has to be done with proper skills. Put another way, we all know that speed can be used to hide skill deficinecies...parrallel with traverse (pw/t)prevents that....no hiding possible. FACT 2: If you "pre-turn" to start the turn on your pw/t you will fail. If you end the turn with an "oversteer" to get your skis under you, you will fail. To pass you must be able to go straight in, and come straight out.
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=5FBBB0CF

Is this a proper traverse to parallel turn?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 Well...you do extend the ankles to intiate a turn...so you could argue that is pushing away....however, combined with pivoting, which is pulling in, or edging in arc to arc, the skis are also pulling in....where as with motorbikes, the front wheel ACTUALLY moves the other way....this isnt the case in good skiing.
I can see some of us are on different thought trains here. Your statements above are inaccurate, at least in reference to my posts. To clarify myself... recline back in your recliner chair in your bare feet and tip your feet like you are making a turn to the right. Notice how your feet simultaneously twist slightly to the left. This is the simple comparison I am referring to as similar to the initial post here. The movement inside the boot does not cause the skis to pivot in either direction but simply helps engage the edges early and with the path of the com in the right direction engage the shovels too. This can and does complement any ILE, OLR movements.

Just maybe a few others here have a similar knowledge base as you but may communicate their thoughts in a way that does not click with your perception initially. Perhaps questioning those posts rather than condemning them before you understand the thinking would be a better tact?
Skidude, regarding the traverse to parallel turn demo. This is a great task and I believe many PSIA level III's would have difficulty with this task. (FWIW I do not envision the demo as done by TDK6).

In addition to using ILR and OLR to initiate parallel turns from a traverse, I think there are maybe a few other key factors that contribute to a successful demo here. One of which certainly is efficient lead change and timing as well as pressure control movements through the edge change.

thoughts?
If someone could post a link to the CSIA demo of the parallel turns from a traverse, I would sure love to see it. It sounds like an excellent demo to have in your kit-bag. I think you could learn a heck of a lot from it.
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 Originally Posted by T-Square If someone could post a link to the CSIA demo of the parallel turns from a traverse, I would sure love to see it. It sounds like an excellent demo to have in your kit-bag. I think you could learn a heck of a lot from it.
There are various techniques for turning from a traverse. There are various techniques but the most common I can think of is the up-unweight method. You ask for a CSIA demo and although not a "traverse to parallel" demo the following clip demonstrates a CSIA coach performing parallel turns from traverse position.

The preturn takes away the need for up-unweighting like in the video. In the up-unweighing example we have an up-move to get momentum. In the pre turn we have the small turn in the opposite direction to get momentum. With momentum we can unweight and create ski tip/tail offset and steer our skis through the turn skidding/brushing. An other way of turning out of a traverse is by using the phantom move. Please list more ways and if you have a video to go with it even better.
Sounds like the turn/traverse/turn task focuses more heavily on a clean turn exit into a traverse, then on the entry into the new turn? Sounds like a good drill for working on a clean release, and developing good cross-over management skills. Would need to maintain balance on the uphill edges while traversing, and exercise fine manage of rotary to come into the new turn with no oversteer, then keep tracking straight during the traverse. Not terribly difficult, but a good drill for further development of edge control and balance skills.

Keep in mind, turn/traverse/turn is a nemesis turn shape of skiers who have not yet learned how to consolidate transitions into linked round turns with no traverse. The traverse interrupts the flow from turn to turn. Good drill, none the less, as long as the intention is understood, and it's used in the context of an comprehensive training program that also teaches flow.
Aaaaah, good old countersteering... Sportbike riding wouldn't be the same without it- the faster you go, the better it feels...

Hey I've notived that when I drive a car, you turn the wheel to the left to make a left turn... Any parallel in skiing???
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 Originally Posted by DoWork Hey I've notived that when I drive a car, you turn the wheel to the left to make a left turn... Any parallel in skiing???
That would be a nonpareil parallel. I've oft been tempted to have kids turn using a steering wheel, but that encourages detrimental shoulder movements.
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 Originally Posted by therusty That would be a nonpareil parallel. I've oft been tempted to have kids turn using a steering wheel, but that encourages detrimental shoulder movements.
Its funny that there are instructors that are completely in love with that steering weel drill. I have passed on a global warning to all my instructors that I dont ever want to see that kind of teaching on our local hill.
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 Originally Posted by Rick Sounds like the turn/traverse/turn task focuses more heavily on a clean turn exit into a traverse, then on the entry into the new turn? Sounds like a good drill for working on a clean release, and developing good cross-over management skills. Would need to maintain balance on the uphill edges while traversing, and exercise fine manage of rotary to come into the new turn with no oversteer, then keep tracking straight during the traverse. Not terribly difficult, but a good drill for further development of edge control and balance skills. Keep in mind, turn/traverse/turn is a nemesis turn shape of skiers who have not yet learned how to consolidate transitions into linked round turns with no traverse. The traverse interrupts the flow from turn to turn. Good drill, none the less, as long as the intention is understood, and it's used in the context of an comprehensive training program that also teaches flow.
I think that it not only focuses on a clean turn exit but equally much on a clean turn entry. Once you know how to make independent turns with traverses in between linking them is the next step. Its easier to do if you know how to independently make turns. Linking turns, speed and ski poles all make it easier to cheat. And I think there is as much flow to turn and traverse as there is in linking turns. In my book flow is all about maintaining movement. IMO there is as much flow to pre turning and bump skiing as there is to any other kind of method of turning.
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 Originally Posted by tdk6 I think that it not only focuses on a clean turn exit but equally much on a clean turn entry. Once you know how to make independent turns with traverses in between linking them is the next step. Its easier to do if you know how to independently make turns. Linking turns, speed and ski poles all make it easier to cheat. And I think there is as much flow to turn and traverse as there is in linking turns. In my book flow is all about maintaining movement. IMO there is as much flow to pre turning and bump skiing as there is to any other kind of method of turning.

Yeah, the ability to focus clearly on the entry to the new turn too, also makes sense. I do a similar thing with a pause at neutral, mostly in teaching arc to arc. It's a mental regrouping opportunity before launching the proper movements to ensure a quality initiation of the new turn. A momentum driven traverse, without the uphill edge engagement. I thought the exit was the focus point from Dude's explanation. But obviously, everyone is free to use and exploit drills for multiple uses, and I like yours too.

The flow I was referring to was the flow of the CM out of the old turn, across the skis. and into the new turn. With turn/traverse/turn, the CM starts to flow,,, pauses at traverse,,, then starts again. In arc to arc,,, or turn to turn,,, the CM flows smoothly from turn to turn. No interruption.
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 Originally Posted by Rick Yeah, the ability to focus clearly on the entry to the new turn too, also makes sense. I do a similar thing with a pause at neutral, mostly in teaching arc to arc. It's a mental regrouping opportunity before launching the proper movements to ensure a quality initiation of the new turn. A momentum driven traverse, without the uphill edge engagement. I thought the exit was the focus point from Dude's explanation. But obviously, everyone is free to use and exploit drills for multiple uses, and I like yours too. The flow I was referring to was the flow of the CM out of the old turn, across the skis. and into the new turn. With turn/traverse/turn, the CM starts to flow,,, pauses at traverse,,, then starts again. In arc to arc,,, or turn to turn,,, the CM flows smoothly from turn to turn. No interruption.
Ok, I see now what you mean by flow. Yes, that is correct. At higher level skiing like in powder if you dissrupt the flow of the CoM you will be thrown off balance.

BTW, we have been discussing "countersteering", which is kind of a new consept talked about like this. Since we have concluded that its ok to countersteer how will that affect steering? Can both be right? If steering is neutral and countersteering is on one side, what is on the other side? Would that bee rotation? Or anticipation?
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 Originally Posted by tdk6 Its funny that there are instructors that are completely in love with that steering weel drill. I have passed on a global warning to all my instructors that I dont ever want to see that kind of teaching on our local hill.
Golly, I say the same thing! It's a horrible thing to teach into malleable minds and bodies.

That 'Car Steering' movement pattern is essentially opposite what they need to be doing in every way. The arms and hands go in a poor direction, the shoulders tend to follow, they tip the upper body from the waist into the turn moving their CM onto the inside ski, etc.

Traversing between turns has been unfairly painted an ugly color in the past but it has great value in learning to use our across-the-hill momentum effectively as well as unlearning the need to use down-slope momentum to drive everything.

Traversing between turns is probably my single best go-to method of installing new Turn-Linking patterns in students (regardless what Turn-Type we're working on). I tend to teach the Turn-Exit patterns first, isolated from Turn-Entry patterns. I then teach Turn-Entry patterns, again isolated from Turn-Exit patterns. With a large traverse between the two (giving lots of time) students are able to 'reset' their mind and body to make the transition between the two more successfully. With Exit & Entry working well I then focus on the morphing pattern between he two and gradually have them shrink the traverse until they have normally-Linked turns going for them in the given technique.

This seems to work well regardless of Turn Type, terrain, snow conditions, age or skier level. Highly recommended.

Think of teaching ILE vs OLR this way. The student would get a clear idea exactly what the nature of each pattern might be without much explanation from the instructor.

Oh... and for those of you who can't see any possible way for Bike-Related counter-steering to apply to our world of skiing, well... Maybe this will help.

.ma
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