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Countersteering 101 - Page 5

post #121 of 135
tdk6,

It doesn't matter what method I use to initiate a turn from a traverse. Once the turn starts I can use my feet and legs to shape the turn to any size/shape/type I want from a sub 3m skidded turn to a 20m carved arc.

fom
post #122 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I dont understand where the missunderstanding lies since I agree fully with you in this above quoted posting. Pre-turning is used to create momentum. When we link turns we do not need to create momentum since we have ski rebound at our disposal. In a way the pre-turn is when the skier is creating the end phase of the previous turn that does not exist when truning out of a traverse. All linked short turns are in that sence closely related to the pre-turn, cross under and also countersteering. Also, countresteering is used out of a traverse at very small G forces. Thats the whole ide with the pre turn.
In my mind a preturn doesn't create momentum, it separates our momentum's direction from our skis direction, thus creating an imbalance that draws the body in the direction of the new turn. Even ina slow traverse we have gravity and our own momentum working on us. So in this regard, it is another form of release right? We move our base of support away from underneath our CoM (Center of Mass).

As I see it ski rebound works for us only if we control and direct the skis directional travel and energy in a deliberate and divergent way from our momentum's direction of travel. We encourage and allow the skis to continue on their curved path as we release our CoM into the turn. Otherwise rebound will simply result in the skis jetting forward in the direction of least resistance, putting us into a backseat position playing catch up. In my mind the path of least resistance lies in our CoM's direction of travel. Done effectivelly harnessing ski rebound will have that energetic winding up and unwinding between the lower and upper body as we move from short turn to short turn.

So I guess I don't see either a preturn or ski rebound creating any real momentum for us. They do allow us to utilize our momentum more effectively in differing situations though.
post #123 of 135
I think you can get over 1 g on a bike, but not nearly as much as you can on skis.

If you are turning from a turn, then you have a pre-turn, skis turning left as body moves right (cross-under or cross-over or anything in between).

Michael nailed it with the axis of rotation making a difference in how quickly you can rotate. Integrate mass x distance from rotation axis and you have less resistance with the axis at the centre of mass.

Skidude is also absolutely right; you have to be smooth, all the quickness in the world is worthless if you break traction. Hello trees bye bye world!

I would probably agree it is a tactic more than a technique. The techniqe being in my case rolling the skis on edge to get them to pre-turn and back onto the other edge to get them to turn.

It's too bad that if you took a skier and he skied arc to traverse to arc without any ILS he would fail. I suppose by the time he is taking his L4 though he knows what is expected of him. It doesn't sound at all hard to do; it's just that it is not what I would choose to do outside of such an exam. Why bother with ILS when all you need to do is engage the sidesct? Perhaps that's a question for another thread.
post #124 of 135
Gee, this is pretty well stated...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
In my mind a preturn doesn't create momentum, it separates our momentum's direction from our skis direction, thus creating an imbalance that draws the body in the direction of the new turn.
Ric is referring to linear momentum here, but we do create some angular momentum (laterally) with this pattern.


Ghost,
The thing with Exams is that they specify Tasks to perform based on the desire to see specific capabilities in the skier. In this case they might want to see the ability to use ILS properly and so disallow carving. I've no doubt that they also have specific tasks that require the skier to demonstrate cleanly carved turns with no ILS permitted.

These Tasks are not Final Forms and are not meant to highlight or define 'good skiing' but rather to highlight 'proper execution' of specific capabilities in the candidate.

.ma
post #125 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
Gee, this is pretty well stated...
Ric is referring to linear momentum here, but we do create some angular momentum (laterally) with this pattern.


Ghost,
The thing with Exams is that they specify Tasks to perform based on the desire to see specific capabilities in the skier. In this case they might want to see the ability to use ILS properly and so disallow carving. I've no doubt that they also have specific tasks that require the skier to demonstrate cleanly carved turns with no ILS permitted.

These Tasks are not Final Forms and are not meant to highlight or define 'good skiing' but rather to highlight 'proper execution' of specific capabilities in the candidate.

.ma
That makes sense.
post #126 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
Gee, this is pretty well stated...
Ric is referring to linear momentum here, but we do create some angular momentum (laterally) with this pattern.
I would have to ask, is there any other kind of momentum other than linear? If we are adding something new to the mix wouldn't we really just be setting up an imbalance so that we harness gravities influence? Gravity pulling us down the hill, coupled with our momentum (inertia) wanting to return to it's linear path.

Think back on the original movie that started this thread. the cycle is moving in a straight line and then the wheel is turned away from the direction of travel. What I see happening next is that the base of support moves from under the CoM, yet the momentum wants to keep on moving straight forward. The result of this new imbalance is that the cycle starts to tip to the side.


Our momentum pulls us in the opposite direction of our movements we use to creates the pre turn, so what else could cause the lateral. Because our lower body movements are briefly in the opposite direction, we can pretty much write off kinetic chain invovlement for the lateral influence until we start tipping in the new direction. What do you see happening?
post #127 of 135
Oops, Sorry, I guess I should have been more verbose in my statement... ( )

I agree with all you say above RicB. In my short statement I wasn't referring to lateral linear momentum but rather the sideways rotational momentum created about an axis through the CM by initial counter-steering. For a skier to initiate a reorientation from one side to the other it takes a bit of force (torque) to make that rotation happen. That's what I was referring to.

Once started, it takes a counter-torque to eliminate continued sideways rotation (because of the now-existing angular momentum). This matters because once the skier initiates lateral rotation from one side to the other... how do they stop it? What stops the skier from just planting the new inside-ear into the snow?

My answer is increased centripetal force from the engaging skis. And not just increased, but increased just beyond the point the skier would be back in normal lateral balance. This occurs for a brief moment, then the skier settles into a more refined state of lateral balance. This is true for ILE and OLR also.

In the video (at 2:36) you can see this multi-move rebalancing act with the bicycle and again with the motorcycle a moment later. That little extra 'wobble' after the initial move is not a mistake, it's a brief, necessary over-steer to stop the over-rotation laterally that would otherwise occur.

If you've ever gone over a sharp drop off just after turn initiation (at speed) you may have found yourself toppling sideways while in the air. Once the skis leave the surface they can't stop our lateral rotation (angular momentum) and we end up with a hip check on our new inside-hip.

.ma
post #128 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
It would be very interesting to see a demo of a person skiing straight in a traverse and then flexing his outside leg OLF causing an evenly steered non carved turn down in the fall line and beyond. Lets say turn radius 3m. I dont believe simple weight transfer will cause a turn. It will but then the skis must be steering to begin with. Like in a wedge.

I agree with you that a simple weight transfer will not cause a STEERED turn. It won't produce steering. You have to actually steer to produce steering. ILE/OLR are not steering generating mechanisms,,, they're release moves that cause the CM to pass over the skis and into the new turn, powered by the external forces of gravity and centrifugal force. How the new turn is powered is another matter. You can use the legs and steer the turn, into any shape/radius you want, as HuskyMatureMan explained very well. You can carve. You can pivot. You can rotate. You can counter-rotate. The release and the turn are different skills, melded together into a single flowing package.
post #129 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I agree with you that a simple weight transfer will not cause a STEERED turn. It won't produce steering. You have to actually steer to produce steering. ILE/OLR are not steering generating mechanisms,,, they're release moves that cause the CM to pass over the skis and into the new turn, powered by the external forces of gravity and centrifugal force. How the new turn is powered is another matter. You can use the legs and steer the turn, into any shape/radius you want, as HuskyMatureMan explained very well. You can carve. You can pivot. You can rotate. You can counter-rotate. The release and the turn are different skills, melded together into a single flowing package.
Precisely .
post #130 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
Oops, Sorry, I guess I should have been more verbose in my statement... ( )

I agree with all you say above RicB. In my short statement I wasn't referring to lateral linear momentum but rather the sideways rotational momentum created about an axis through the CM by initial counter-steering. For a skier to initiate a reorientation from one side to the other it takes a bit of force (torque) to make that rotation happen. That's what I was referring to.

Once started, it takes a counter-torque to eliminate continued sideways rotation (because of the now-existing angular momentum). This matters because once the skier initiates lateral rotation from one side to the other... how do they stop it? What stops the skier from just planting the new inside-ear into the snow?

My answer is increased centripetal force from the engaging skis. And not just increased, but increased just beyond the point the skier would be back in normal lateral balance. This occurs for a brief moment, then the skier settles into a more refined state of lateral balance. This is true for ILE and OLR also.

In the video (at 2:36) you can see this multi-move rebalancing act with the bicycle and again with the motorcycle a moment later. That little extra 'wobble' after the initial move is not a mistake, it's a brief, necessary over-steer to stop the over-rotation laterally that would otherwise occur.

If you've ever gone over a sharp drop off just after turn initiation (at speed) you may have found yourself toppling sideways while in the air. Once the skis leave the surface they can't stop our lateral rotation (angular momentum) and we end up with a hip check on our new inside-hip.

.ma
Michael I understand now and agree. I actually had a mental image in my head yesterday when thinking on this subject of a skier falling over if no other movements where initiated just like you stated.
post #131 of 135
Heh, I've had that same image pounded firmly into my head quite a few times. Sometimes, our skis just decide head to the Bar before the rest of our body realizes where they're going...

.ma
post #132 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
Sometimes, our skis just decide to head to the Bar before the rest of our body realizes where they're doing....ma
I so wish there were enough snow to choose the bar over more skiing. Instead we've got .... blue skies .... 70 degree temps .... green up and brown below .... nice breezes .... and birds chirping. How depressing. So I turn to these forums. Is this good .... or really pathetic?
post #133 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet
Instead we've got .... blue skies .... 70 degree temps .... green up and brown below .... nice breezes .... and birds chirping.
Gee, this sounds a lot like Alpental was in mid May. Weren't nothing wrong with that.

.ma
post #134 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Countersteer might be a good tactic for creating a HP turn from a traverse.

Countersteer is not used in regular turn to turn skiing.
I generally agree with you SkiDude and I liked your list of points. I will say though that TDK pointed out some use of countersteering in the bumps with a video that was perfectly acceptable to me as a useful choice.
post #135 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I generally agree with you SkiDude and I liked your list of points. I will say though that TDK pointed out some use of countersteering in the bumps with a video that was perfectly acceptable to me as a useful choice.
Thanks ! I have found it highly useful in the bumps.
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