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Hosp MA - Page 2

post #31 of 50
I'm loving this discussion.
Making use of natural human movement within the framework of skiing methodology makes too much sense to ignore.



Sorry ,carry on . I'll go sit down and follow

Nice explanation BTS. I was working this though my mind and you stated my conclusions nicely.
post #32 of 50
I understand the observation that there are similarities between gait mechanics and skiing but there are also differences, as others here have eluded to, and I am not of the thinking that the direct comparison between the two is accurate.

We could build a footbed that will not allow pronation and locks the foot in the boots in an inverted position and I could still ski. No amount of counter or pelvic tilt would change this. My balancing would be compromised and adjustments for balance would have to be done through higher joints in the chain but it could and has been done. I know this because I had an overposted superfeet orthotic made for me years ago and this is exactly what I experienced.

This is not one of Newton's laws!
post #33 of 50
Thread Starter 
bud,

accurate in what sense?
post #34 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
We could build a footbed that will not allow pronation and locks the foot in the boots in an inverted position and I could still ski. No amount of counter or pelvic tilt would change this. My balancing would be compromised and adjustments for balance would have to be done through higher joints in the chain but it could and has been done. I know this because I had an overposted superfeet orthotic made for me years ago and this is exactly what I experienced.
Very true, Bud. And I can prop myself solidly in the back seat, with no chance of ever pronating onto the front of my foot,,, and procede to make perfectly exectuted arc to arc turns. Or I can lift my outside ski and make a perfectly clean carved turn on my inverted foot, while weighting the heel or ball, which ever I choose. And people CAN learn to ski without ever going to a bootfitter to rectify their mis-alignment issues.

Sure we can ski in inefficient states, and do so quite well. The point is, what ARE the most efficient bio-mechanical approaches, and how can we help students learn to use them?

A fore/aft centered stance allows the foot to employ its full balancing capabilities. It also allows the muscles of the rest of the body to most relax. A pronated foot directs pressure to the turning edge of the outside ski. Exactly what serves us best. Counter allows a skier angulate and balance with the greatest effectiveness at big edge angles. It also aids in helping the outside foot pronate. If skiers change pressure to the old inside foot early in the transition cycle, while the old inside leg is still flexed, the CM generally trails that lead foot and needs to be moved forward prior to the start of the new turn to assume an efficient fore/aft centered stance.

Gait mechanics promote the attainment of all those things, and all those skiing efficiencies. No, it is not an exact match. We don't swing our arms, we don't actually stride forward with the new swing foot to the degree we do when walking. But the base movements ARE quite similar, and feeL so when you do it,,, and the results provide exactly what we want in achieving all the ideals I suggested above.

Bottom line: yes, we can ski in inefficient states. I do it, I teach it. It's important to know how. But it's equally important to know what efficient states are, and have numerous ways of achieving them. Gait mechanics is one. It's a tool. That's all.



Quote:
This is not one of Newton's laws!
That too is very true. Though if Newton came personally on Epicski to expain one of his laws, I'm sure there would be some who would jump in the mix to challenge him. "I knew Jack Kennedy..... You're no Jack Kennedy, Rick." Yeah, yeah, I know,,,, it's just a joke.

Gotta tell you guys; it's tough as a race coach writing about gait mechanics. I keep auto typing it GATE.
post #35 of 50
Thread Starter 
Funny thing about the arm swing... one CAN relate that to gait as well -- poling so that hip follows arm......

And it's fun to ski like that -- especially for kids. Interesting thing is, that they tend not to exaggerate the movements as much as we old folks do.

They "get it".

Now when you try to teach kids to manually force counter and get drastically early edges by "moving inside", what you see is that they start flailing by overtwisting, dump the hip and "assume the position". Now you have a real problem.... they are doing exactly what they were told and it's just not right.

They don"t "get it".

I'm sure that's to do with the fact that they know gait.
post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
You're right, sharpedges, there are very few medicine balls to be found falling from the sky while skiing. It's called an analogy.

As to the principle that analogy refers to; if you understand the physics and the forces taking place through a transition, it's really not so hard to comprehend what I'm talking about.

I could try the cutting off the table leg analogy too, but apparently analogies don't work for you, and I just don't have the time to go through all the force vector details to explain this to you, perhaps someone else here will. I know BigE and BTS understand this stuff.

I will say that if you are not feeling load being dumped onto your uphill leg/foot when you relax your downhill leg at the end of a turn, then likely 1 or more of 3 major possibilities is/are happening.

1) Sensory awareness is lacking, or is being overshadowed by focusing on other things.

2) You are relaxing your old outside leg so progressively the rate of load transfer is slow, and the dumping sensation is somewhat muted. This would also result in a very slow transition. Don't ask,,, it would take another physics lesson.

3) You're doing more ILE than you realize.
Don't ask,,, it would take another physics lesson.

No thanks, I had 10 years of university physics training which is enough for one lifetime.

I could try the cutting off the table leg analogy too, but apparently analogies don't work for you, and I just don't have the time to go through all the force vector details to explain this to you

This is a very different analogy. I accept this one as having something to do with skiing. Your previous analogy did not.

2) You are relaxing your old outside leg so progressively the rate of load transfer is slow, and the dumping sensation is somewhat muted. This would also result in a very slow transition. Don't ask,,, it would take another physics lesson.

I can release progressively, in the blink of an eye, or anywhere in between. For quick releases, the dominant perceptual experience is the near instantaneous lateral translation of the CM, not the loading of the formerly-light foot which remains somewhat light until the end of the high-C phase in OLR. (it's called the float phase, not the load phase for a reason.) For slow release, the experience is, as you say, muted. I've taken and taught enough physics lessons to agree with your suggestion not to taken another physics lesson.

back to Hosp MA.
post #37 of 50
Sharpedges, if you know the physics of this, then you know that a release of the outside leg, with nothing else done to divert the forces working on the CM will send you straight into the snow. Something has to be done to divert the CM laterally. Without supplementing with a lateral muscular effort, the thing that will divert the CM is the loading of the old inside leg, which catches and keeps the body from pummeling to earth, and diverts it laterally across the skis as it topples/pendulums over the old inside leg and into the new turn. Relax that old inside leg along with the old outside leg, and do nothing else to promote a lateral movement of the CM, and believe me, you've got a date with the snow.

There are things that can be done to create that float you're feeling, but it takes more than just pure OLR.
post #38 of 50
Quote:
BUD HEISHMAN
I don't believe counter is prerequisite to pronation? and I do not believe creating counter necessarily causes pronation. We can pronate without counter and counter can be created without pronation. In fact, counter can cause inversion. The two movements are not necessarily linked in my mind.


I totally agree. Keep going I'd like to read more.


Quote:
BorntoSki683
Well, let me just say, its UNLIKELY that she would have been able to transition, particularly with her CoM as well projected as it is in frame#2, without putting weight onto her left foot. How do you figure she could have gotten there otherwise? Please explain your thoughts.


Momentum. I dont see any magic here....does she have weight on the left foot? Likely....but so what?


Quote:
Rick
Bud, I'd be interested to hear your detailed thoughts on this. In gait mechanics the foot pronates as the CM moves across the foot, from heel to balls,,, and the hip counters toward the stance foot as the CM makes that aft/fore journey.


But in skiing we go from balls to heel (After reading jdestifa, I think I get this part now, heel to toe through transition...but I still dont see it as the same).....this gait mechanics theory seems just a really complicated way of saying the foot should pronate naturally...I dont really see the value or applicaton here.

Quote:
Rick
Very true, Bud. And I can prop myself solidly in the back seat, with no chance of ever pronating onto the front of my foot,,, and procede to make perfectly exectuted arc to arc turns. Or I can lift my outside ski and make a perfectly clean carved turn on my inverted foot, while weighting the heel or ball, which ever I choose. And people CAN learn to ski without ever going to a bootfitter to rectify their mis-alignment issues.
Seriously Rick.....you seem to be throwing red herrings here left right and center.



Quote:
Rick
Sure we can ski in inefficient states, and do so quite well. The point is, what ARE the most efficient bio-mechanical approaches, and how can we help students learn to use them?

A fore/aft centered stance allows the foot to employ its full balancing capabilities. It also allows the muscles of the rest of the body to most relax. A pronated foot directs pressure to the turning edge of the outside ski. Exactly what serves us best. Counter allows a skier angulate and balance with the greatest effectiveness at big edge angles. It also aids in helping the outside foot pronate. If skiers change pressure to the old inside foot early in the transition cycle, while the old inside leg is still flexed, the CM generally trails that lead foot and needs to be moved forward prior to the start of the new turn to assume an efficient fore/aft centered stance.
Ok...no problem here, but how do you then make this giant leap?


Quote:
Rick
Gait mechanics promote the attainment of all those things, and all those skiing efficiencies. No, it is not an exact match. We don't swing our arms, we don't actually stride forward with the new swing foot to the degree we do when walking. But the base movements ARE quite similar, and feeL so when you do it,,, and the results provide exactly what we want in achieving all the ideals I suggested above.
Walking is heel toe, with a stride to counter the hips, and the mass moves fore.....

Skiing is toe heel, there is no stride to cause counter, and the mass moves fore, aft, left and right. The base movments are NOT even close to similiar and skiing feels nothing like walking when you do it. That is why so many beginners fall backwards when they try to ski...they are nothing alike.

Sure we pronate and counter when we ski, and if you say so, sure it happens when we walk...but pronation and counter are created....(ie are the RESULT of) totally different things in the two activities. To imply that they are the same or related, or this is somehow significant concept in skiing....just seems a very unsubstantied claim.

If you have some details on this I would be intrested to read it.

Quote:
Bottom line: yes, we can ski in inefficient states. I do it, I teach it. It's important to know how. But it's equally important to know what efficient states are, and have numerous ways of achieving them. Gait mechanics is one. It's a tool. That's all.
I assume these are typos.
post #39 of 50

My Critique

This may be a big call from 1 still shot..ok it is a big call for 1 still shot...but....

This sequence shows Hosp recovering beautifully from being slightly back and inside.

This is obvious from Frame #1. That old inside arm...and pole basket reaching for the sky, this appears to me as someone trying to agressivly pull their shoulder back. At the same time she would be trying to drive the new inside shoulder forward...AND use all her core strength to get her torso over her feet by the time she hits skis flat.

She clearly makes it....somewhere between frames 1 and 2. We then see the effectivness of this recovery in the beautiful turn she shows in frames 2 to 4.

Take aways from this:
  • Core strength is paramount to good skiing.
  • A turn that starts well is a turn that ends well.
  • If you get bent out of shape, go the other way, the resulting reduction of turning forces will allow you to recover without dumping excessive speed....
post #40 of 50
Maybe I'm simple minded, but when I look at this sequence I simply see:

2 - starting to freefall down the hill from the new ski (projection)
3 - early separation allowing the hips/COM to move inside the arc
3 - weight on the outside ski

Re. gait mechanics and skiing, there is a moment of 'toe off' from the end of one turn to the start of the next. This is the foundation for projection of the mass forward and inside the new turn.

Hips crossing over the feet (COM momentum down the hill more than the feet, and some times - for a moment - just ahead of the feet) provokes a step reflex which creates an automatic weight transfer.

I agree with Bud re. counter (too much) can create inversion and also 'pull' the shin off the front of the boot. This happens as a result of top-down external rotation. The sweet spot for counter allows separation of the hips (COM inside the arc), and pronation, and shin contact. You can easily pronate with no counter, but then the hips won't be inside the arc .
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post #41 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
bud,

accurate in what sense?

A better word would have been "direct" ?
post #42 of 50
This is a great discussion guys and I am learning some things here. I can see the argument for both sides. Personally I just think gait mechanics related to skiing is an observation of results or effects of good skiing and not necessarily a good match for explaining the complex actions that are involved in skiing. The sensations in skiing and walking are too different to have a valuable teaching benefit for all but maybe ski nerds like us.
post #43 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post








But in skiing we go from balls to heel (After reading jdestifa, I think I get this part now, heel to toe through transition...but I still dont see it as the same).....this gait mechanics theory seems just a really complicated way of saying the foot should pronate naturally...I dont really see the value or applicaton here.




Right, the transition is heel to ball. That is the portion of the turn where gait mechanics apply. Where the weight moves forward, and the pelvis shifts rotationally (clear to see in the Hosp montage, if you know what to look for), and the foot pronates. Pronation does not necessarily happen naturally. Stay on your heels,,, don't make the fore adjustment through the transition,,, and pronation suffers.



Quote:
Seriously Rick.....you seem to be throwing red herrings here left right and center.


Dude, I actually find your suggesting that I am intentionally trying to mislead very rude. The statement you quote was taken out of the context of a direct response to Bud, in which he was discussing the possibility of skiing in inefficient states. What is your purpose in suggesting I'm being disingenuous? I'm not pleased.






Quote:
Skiing is toe heel, there is no stride to cause counter, and the mass moves fore, aft, left and right. The base movments are NOT even close to similiar and skiing feels nothing like walking when you do it. That is why so many beginners fall backwards when they try to ski...they are nothing alike.



You're thinking of the turn body again. The transition IS heel to toe, and the pelvic shift out of counter (again, you can see it in the Hosp montage) does produce a movement pattern that resembles a step. The difference is that in skiing the hip leads. If the foot lead, as in walking, it would result in TOO MUCH tip lead going into the new turn. Leading with the new inside hip pulls the new inside ski along, and produces functional tip lead. The result, though is similar to a mini stride.

See the tip lead change through the transition of the Hosp montage. That is not a result of natural skiing into counter. The skis are not turning through the transition such to create that tip lead change by skiing into it. So many ways to see this stuff happening, if you know how and what to look for.

This manner of leading with the inside hip to produce the pelvic shift is a valuable concept for eliminating the new outside hip dumping so many novice skiers/carvers do through their transitions, while ATST creating a functional rotational state for the start of the new turn.


Quote:
Sure we pronate and counter when we ski, and if you say so


I don't say so universally. I say it's an important element of good skiing. Some ski such that it does not happen as well as it should/could.

Quote:
pronation and counter are created....(ie are the RESULT of) totally different things in the two activities. To imply that they are the same or related, or this is somehow significant concept in skiing....just seems a very unsubstantied claim.


Well, I've studied it, and have substantiated it to myself. I think if others experiment with it they too may discover the similarities in function and feel. For me, I actually find the sensations and outcomes strikingly similar. Like I said earlier; it's just an option and a tool. Those with curious minds may want to explore it.

Now I'm going to go take my girls (puppies) hiking in these beautiful Colorado Mountains. Come on girls!!
post #44 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
The transition IS heel to toe, and the pelvic shift out of counter (again, you can see it in the Hosp montage) does produce a movement pattern that resembles a step. The difference is that in skiing the hip leads. If the foot lead, as in walking, it would result in TOO MUCH tip lead going into the new turn. Leading with the new inside hip pulls the new inside ski along, and produces functional tip lead. The result, though is similar to a mini stride.
Rick,

You're bang on.

I still remember one of my coaches talking about the feeling of striding down the hill. Smart guy .
post #45 of 50
The heel to toe movement during transition makes sense to me, it is the toe to heel movement (ie; backpedaling) in the latter phases that is nothing like walking. So for me it makes sense during transition but loses direct similarities for the rest of the turn. Perhaps this is where we have different perspectives. I certainly agree with the mechanics Rick describes and can maybe understand how encouraging an athlete to direct hip movements to mirror gait mechanics during transition could be beneficial.

It just isn't as much fun if we all agree all the time, is it?
post #46 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
The heel to toe movement during transition makes sense to me, it is the toe to heel movement (ie; backpedaling) in the latter phases that is nothing like walking. So for me it makes sense during transition but loses direct similarities for the rest of the turn. Perhaps this is where we have different perspectives. I certainly agree with the mechanics Rick describes and can maybe understand how encouraging an athlete to direct hip movements to mirror gait mechanics during transition could be beneficial.

It just isn't as much fun if we all agree all the time, is it?
Bud,

I think the analogy to gait is primarily about the transition/linking phase. However, the rest of the turn is still a reasonable parody of frontal plane gait mechanics with a slow version of midstance (less rapid progression to maximal pronation).

Perhaps a closer analogy to skiing would be sprinting - no heel strike.

However, I completely agree with you that the toe/mtp to midfoot/proximal arch (heel if you're in trouble) progression of center-of-pressure is ass backwards .
post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
The heel to toe movement during transition makes sense to me, So for me it makes sense during transition but loses direct similarities for the rest of the turn. Perhaps this is where we have different perspectives. I certainly agree with the mechanics Rick describes and can maybe understand how encouraging an athlete to direct hip movements to mirror gait mechanics during transition could be beneficial.
Actually, that is exactly what we are talking about. It sounds like we are in violent agreement!
post #48 of 50
Bud, I think the gait mechanics very likely do carry through towards the end of a turn. I think it travels further up the body into the shoulders in a natural gait reaction/balance. Ever since BigE started this thread I've been paying more attention to my own as well as watching the kids at football agility practice. They have some strange moves to develop more balance & upper/lower seperation.

For me, when my foot is carrying the most load & my hip is behind, that same shoulder is now moving forward to match up/counter balance with the opposite foot that has moved forward ready to heel strike. It made me think that is the point in a turn when my shoulder naturally wants to rotate forward. And we know what that can do. And how common that is for intermediates, preventing advancement. So that opens up several different shifts in focus to me rather than using just the core to prevent that from occuring.
post #49 of 50
Does anyone else here see a future ski instructor in the making??
post #50 of 50
Gee thanks Bud. That would be like a tax write off instead of a paycheck ? hmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Funny thing about the arm swing... one CAN relate that to gait as well -- poling so that hip follows arm......

And it's fun to ski like that -- especially for kids. Interesting thing is, that they tend not to exaggerate the movements as much as we old folks do.

They "get it".

Now when you try to teach kids to manually force counter and get drastically early edges by "moving inside", what you see is that they start flailing by overtwisting, dump the hip and "assume the position". Now you have a real problem.... they are doing exactly what they were told and it's just not right.

They don"t "get it".

I'm sure that's to do with the fact that they know gait.
BigE thanks for pointing this out. Nothing to do w/the orig point of the thread, but I think this is a huge point. Every thing a kid does is learning, developing & engaging all their senses & systems. All they do is grow.

Grown ups have to think about it, get way technical, and I suspect don't engage all our physical systems & senses to "grow". We get stuck in our thinking & don't engage enough of our physical abilities to grow/expand to just "get it".
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