The ads on the left - Page 3

Well, Bunion, I'd have hated to see a "drama queen" exit be your last post, so, I'm glad you came back. There are alternatives to viewing the ads as posted in the supporter lounge, but since you have never contributed financially, well lets just say you weren't part of the solution to help avoid the need for the ads.

Your posts have been solid and helpful over the years in matters of safety and ski patrol, so I hope you'll find your way back, and that we can help you adjust your vision so things are less stressful, when you do. We tried to explain that we can't keep the lights on without this admittedly uncherished addition, but in time I think we'll try to make it more functional and less obtrusive. If you are around this fall, I think the additional content will make it worthwhile. We'll keep the lights on just in case the rest of your favorites have to advertise eventually.

good luck, have a great and safe season. And BTW, if I'm ever in your neighborhood and the worst should happen, I'm counting on a smooth ride.

Wow. How do you folks read a newspaper or magazine. How do you watch TV? How do you get past the left-dominant menus on most other websites, especially the ones with ads below the menu? How do you drive anywhere?

Give it a week and you won't even be aware there are ads on Epic.

Here's a tip: if you're using Ad Block Plus or Ad Block Pro for Firefox, here's a string you can add to the exceptions list in order to allow banner ads only for the EpicSki forums:

@@|http://forums.epicski.com/*

I do the same for other sites I frequent and value, whose sole existence depends on ad revenue.

Well, I don't watch TV much, don't listen to commercial radio, but most of all, the ads in my newspaper and magazines are static and don't flash and jump all over the place. I have no objection to ads that stand still, but you should permanently and irrevocably ban those animated ugly ads. They are supremely annoying, and I promise to NEVER buy anything they are advertizing.

Ditto. At least make the damn things stand still so they're not too annoying.

Sad day, IMO.

Tom, I slept on this before replying and feel a PM is the appropriate way to do so. Unfortunately because of the center banner ad touting Epic products, the send PM button was not available.

Well, Bunion, I'd have hated to see a "drama queen" exit be your last post, so, I'm glad you came back.

So you felt that deleting my opinion was the correct response. So much for free speech. There was no violation of the terms of use, you or someone else just thought my reaction was overly "dramatic" and should not be viewed by others. That is sad.

There are alternatives to viewing the ads as posted in the supporter lounge, but since you have never contributed financially, well lets just say you weren't part of the solution to help avoid the need for the ads.

Why would I contribute financially? I drop by here to see what this group of people has to say about skiing and that is it. I have no need for video doodads or other services, I merely look here to see what people have to say about skiing. Your statements border on extortion. "contribute to us or we will bombard you with ads, many of which have no relation to sports or skiing".

This is the ski site I visit and post in the least out of 3. The other two, Telemarktips and TGR also feature advertising. That advertising is geared toward sports and skiing and is unobtrusive. Those sites have found a way to remain solvent and not demand a handout.

Personally I feel that this was poorly handled and that in the end your site will see less hits. Good luck.

I just visited Telemarktips, Bunion, and what do I find? Ads down both sides of the page and half of them are flashing. The ones I saw WERE ski related, though. TGR's whole front page looks like the bulletin board at the laundromat. Revolving ads but not flashing ones. I guess Jeep ads are sort of related.

As Cirque notes, current supporters (less than the cost of most magazine subscriptions) have a means of turning off the ads if they find them too bothersome.

Pretty soon, what people here will be saying about skiing will include remarking on the terrific visuals in the video library. And maybe the interactive instruction feature.

http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/index.php

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/

Really Kneale, where?

The forums have very few ads on either of these other sites and there is nothing flashing.

I read this last night and am still coming back to it.

How were the "volunteers" selected? Is there a post asking for them? You also refer to them as stakeholders, do they have a monetary interest here as well?

It is nice that Nolo explained to the stakeholders the contractual obligations, but the stakeholders never had an issue with the ads. Maybe this obligation should be explained to everyone, or at the least supporters? You also say that " re-working the site template to change the design to display ads on the right would be time consuming and expensive." I'm no expert, but IMHO swapping banner sides seems really easy. BTW, my roomate for over 3 years was a web/flash developer and did this sort of thing all the time. He recently graduated, and now programs ads much like what we are seeing.

Why did adding ads change the forum text (the washed-out (lighter) look)? This seems like a mistake on the designers part, and it should be fixed at no cost. Additionally, the ads due block forum features, PM me for a list of what I have seen since last night (there is a big one that I don't want to give away). Run it this way for now, but get it changed in the meantime. Eventually people are going to catch on about the trick posted in the supporter section and that will go away, and so will a lot of the supporters using that feature.

More needs to be said about these "Special Features". What are they, who will see them, and are they even desired? Why not just make a Premium Member level with a fee that supports these extra features? That way those off us who have no need for extraneous MA videos, instructional vids and on-site hosting can just come here to talk about skiing and have some fringe benefits of being a Supporter.

I think we can all understand that there aren't really that many ski related ads for the summer floatinf around. However, some ad exec needs to thuink for a second that this is a ski forum, we think about skiing year round. Viola, prime target for summer ski ads.

Regardless of how or why there are no ski ads, how about at least sports ads? Universal Sports seems to be plugging Applebees, shoes, iPhones and Mcain more then Golfing, Biking, Boating, Camping, Hiking, Fishing etc.

It seems like the biggest solution that you are recomending to us is to ignore the ads, wether that is just not looking at them or bloking using software. If we ignore them, how are they serving there purpose? Put them in a less obtrusive position so that they are at least still there. That way if a ski or resort ever pops up that I have interest in I might actually click.

Cool, so now I can sit in my Lazy-Boy and teach myself to ski!

Let me make this personal for you folks, so you won't think ads are here through some kind of fat corporate edict. The "new" ownership of epicski started in July 2004. Prior to that AC and dchan worked like slaves, meaning, they worked many hours per day on epicski and earned no pay. Some people donated money to help defray expenses, but the site still required a far larger donation from AC to keep it up, until he no longer could justify keeping EpicSki as his hobby. That's the legacy the new owners inherited.

We got ESA going and it makes a modest profit, which goes to running the website. Between supporter donations and ESA tuition, last year we cleared $4.67. No one who works on the website received a dime in compensation, not me, not anyone. This is how we've been operating for four years, trying our darnedest to gain support from members to give us donations and attend ESA to float this boat. ESA was never going to do it--it's not scalable. And without special content, why should people pay for what others take for free?

Thus was born the partnership that brings us the EpicSki Store, the ads on the left side of the page, and also some great new content--which you may or may not be interested in seeing, that's entirely your choice. You don't have to shop at the EpicSki store or even look at the ads, but we all will have to live with them if we expect to have this site to live at, because it's how we make the money to pay the bills to keep online.

Throughout my experience here (I started working with AC in 2002), we have been accused of crass commercialism for starting ESA, for wanting to monetize the concentrated numbers in our little market niche, and now we're actually hurting you with the ads on the left side. Right now not a lot of ski related products are advertising; we also are a client of an ad agency (Universal Sports, formerly WCSN) which places the ads -- we can demand that only ski-related ads be displayed, but we won't make any money, defeating the purpose of ads.

All we're trying to do is keep this website up and running. How long do you think the financial model based on human slavery is going to hold up? Are you proud to be insisting that it continue? Do your views about EpicSki square with your views about other regimes that prosper through the use of human slavery? I hate to be so extreme, but I've been your slave for four years and I think you should know it. So have (in no particular order) dchan, SSH, Weems, Cirque, Phil_Pug, TheRusty, BillA, Trekchick, Bob Peters, Bob Barnes, T-Square, WTFH, Epic, Tyrone, Nobody, and Sno'more.

A change like this will naturally get more response from those who dislike it than those that don't care. Let me chime in as one who does not particularly care.

The way the ads are integrated is acceptable, and much better than some forums I've seen where they are inserted in the middle of threads as if they were part of the discussion.

The arguments against commercialism seem to be mostly of two types -- purist who are against all commerce, and those who worry about a slippery slope leading to undue influence on the editorial side. I think the first is silly and the second is getting way too worked up about a theoretical future problem.

There do seem to be some technical issues where the ads change the characteristics of what is displayed next to them. That ought to get fixed, though not as an emergency firedrill.

My 2 cents.
I do not mind the ads.
I have not had any problems with changes in the background on the forums.
I may even like the ads as long as they don't flash.
Moving Ads OK, Flashing Not OK.
I pay for Realskiers, EpicSki, Public TV and Public radio but I also watch commercial TV and commercial Radio. They coexist and there is a place for both.
Clearly all the member funded media have a hard time making ends meet. They all take some "advertising" and that's OK with me because the advertising is less intrusive than a fund drive.
It seems that EpicSki came a long way as an (almost) all volunteer orgaization but nothing ever stays the same. Most organizations are in the process of either growing or dieing. Most contributors choose to not become paying members. That's OK too. Adding the advertising seems like a logical way for the nonpaying members to continue to participate in the forums while allowing those that want it can get something more to pay more for what they're getting.
Keep up the good work.

I can absolutely relate to the expense and time involved in keeping a site up and running. I also can't see how you all do put in so much of your heart, soul and time and still deal all the pettiness associated with those tasks. It's damn wearing. Kudos and thanks to all involved. This place is clearly addictive and I can't keep away. (You should get Betty Ford as a lucrative sponsor. ) There is invaluable content in these forums, I have received tons of help and learned a great deal and made new friends.

As someone clearly in the middle as a sponsor and also trying to be one of the gang it is very frustrating at times, but it is definitely time to take stock. It seems to be a fact of life that consumers want to be wooed indirectly versus a direct line to inside info, have little loyalty, take low price over time spent to offer assistance, expect this site to be there for them and deals just for showing up. It's interesting to see bitching about this topic from non-supporters of this site.

I'm also a bit confused as to why, with check book in hand, I never received any response or action when offering to pay for advertising in the past. Are the ads to be exclusive to Universal or will you allow others to advertise? It clearly could have been lower cost to me (financial & time wise) to simply place an ad versus providing incentive deals to the dozens of members who became supporters and providing countless hours of online support.

Definitely lose the blinking ads.

As another revenue option, you should start up ESAs for golf & biking, along with other trips & sports.

Well last night I finally got to see the infamous ads on the left. While at first I was hating it, I am quickly getting used to them. Many forums have a menu system in the same spot, so its not that big a deal IMHO. However if anyone out there is still on a 15" monitor, or at too large a resolution, then maybe it can cause some issues

Hey Nolo et al. I have an idea that may help Epicski make money and for you and the staff to be compensated for your efforts while at the same time add an immense service for the skiing community; more so than you already are. Why not set up a ski related 'lowest price' application, like Bizrate, or Pricetag, Pricegrabber etc., then Epicski gets a percentage of either the click throughs or the actual sale. I dont know if any of those companies have programs to work with 3rd parties but its worth the try I think. I spend hours online shopping for the best prices for all the gear I seem to buy on a daily basis, it would be great if there was one reliable site that only dealt with ski gear and that did the work for me.

I have since blocked them, but honestly they were not that bad on a 22" screen at work. However, on a 15.4 laptop at home, they looked like absolute crap.

There you go! Richie will fund Epic!

Why not. There is more to life than what we can "take". I contribute because I think EpicSki is a good thing for the skiing community. There is certainly a lot of valuable information on this site, but I'd contribute without any of that. Personally, I browse the forums, rarely go into the members only areas, and am happy to contribute a small amount to help keep the site going. When others are contributing their time and money, it's only fair to share some of the burden as well. (Responsibility is a beach.) I know the pittance that I contribute is far from fair, but it eases the guilt if nothing else.

Disappointing to see how ruffled feathers get when ya'll are trying your darnedest to juggle all the plates.

Thanks for all the hard work everyone puts into the site. The ads - meh. NBD.

From a PM, posted with permission:

Would someone please post a tutorial on how to block the ads? I've looked all over and I don't get it. The explanation that was given didn't relate to anything I could find on my screen, or at least it didn't seem to. I'm sometimes too literal about things and don't make the jumps in logic that others do.

In the message to which I responded, you said "telemarktips". When I Googled that I got to: http://www.telemarktips.com/

You also said "tgr", which led me to: http://www.tetongravity.com/

Both of those look to me as I described them.

Go to the Supporter Lounge, look for Cirqurider's posting, "Style Choices for Supporters". It's there.

TGR is a completely different beast. It is a film and entertainment company (a for-profit business enterprise). The forums at TGR do not have ads within that space - basically because that space is a "marketing tool" for the company. It is paid for by the real business of the company and hosting the forums is exposure for their product. I've employed the very same strategy for companies in other industries.

The forums were Epic's "business". from the beginning The ESA's are growing out of that, but the core product is still the forum.

TGR is Hollywood and Epic is a grass-roots co-op. Can't compare the two. ...not that you were, but I'm just sayin'.


*** Actually I guess there are "sponsor" placements on the right side of TGR forum pages. My ad blocker is on, so I never noticed them. Still doesn't change the fundamental differences between the two sites. Epic is a community forum. TGR is basically a film/entertainment company.

I fail to see why you should have to explain anyof this nolo. You can put the ads anywhere you want and the Epic Ski forums will still contain the same content.

Left or Right, why care at all?

Some people just got to bitch.

I'm writing a piece of java script to remove the everything but the forums. (ie ads on left, crap on bottom, crap on top). I'll post it up here when i'm done and you can run it with a plugin called grease monkey. I'm already running similar scripts on Newschoolers and TGR. I'm also pretty sure I can write in an ignore function too, so if you want to ignore someone who you can't using the vb software you'll be able to. Might take me a few days

OMG it's the famous Internet script kitty from Redmond,Wa. Damn PhilT I never put the two together. Cut some slack with Epic folks they're just trying to get by,mmmkay.

oh if only you knew. I when I was in junior high twas the cool thing to do. C++/Java/html. Coding was for the 1337 h@x0r$. Now that my days of re passwording the schools' macs are over ( I got in HUGE trouble for that one) i must content myself with writing dumb little scripts for my own pleasure

Ohhhh the stories this man could tell. Only a shadow of his once glorious feats of mayhem and carnage. I am humbled. And he skis too, how cool is that. This guy could burn this place down.

oh for sure. although spending the last 15 minutes on this reminded me 100percent why that was a ******* stupid hobby. "36 Errors"

I would love your TGR greasemonkey script. I never have felt like sitting down to do that, but often wanted to. PM?