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Skiing into Counter - Page 2

post #31 of 57
I'm just trying to paint a picture of what I think people are trying to emphasize when they talk about "skiing into counter" instead of teaching them to actively "counter-act".

of course, another question is whether these are all really the same thing, various degrees of counter-action.

But mental models can differ to achieve similar results I guess.
post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
I think I'm lost. Truly. I'm trying to clarify, not confuse. Pretend I'm 10 years old. Tell me what this says.
Tricky, isn't it, trying to draw pictures with nothing but words. (we need a man beating head on wall emoticon)


OK,,, example: Skier enters transition with skis and body pointing north.

- If the skis begin to turn East, and the body remains facing North, that's pure skiing into counter.

-If body turns East in harmony with the skis, that's NOT skiing into counter.

-If body turns East, but not as much as the skis, that's skiing into counter a little.

-If body turns West, as skis turn East, that's creating counter manually.
post #33 of 57
Just FWIW,

"Skiing into counter" as used by the Instructor in question simply means:

Let the counter develop naturally as a function of the differce between where your feet are pointing and where your torso is pointing.


That is it. No gait mechanics, no ILE, no BS.

As previously posted:

Torso points "straight ahead"...ie tangent to the arc it is travelling...however another good way, which is slightley different, and perhaps more accurate, is to say "face the force".

Feet direction is a function of steering angle.

If I understand Rick's point, it is simply that in certain circumstances, we will from to time to time, see abit of "english" used...fair enough. But I think the goal is to start with the base line..or "neutral position", then tweak from there.
post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Tricky, isn't it, trying to draw pictures with nothing but words. (we need a man beating head on wall emoticon)


OK,,, example: Skier enters transition with skis and body pointing north.

- If the skis begin to turn East, and the body remains facing North, that's pure skiing into counter. .
Maybe...but not necessarily

Quote:
-If body turns East in harmony with the skis, that's NOT skiing into counter
. Maybe...but not necessarily

Quote:
-If body turns East, but not as much as the skis, that's skiing into counter a little.
Maybe...but not necessarily

Quote:
-If body turns West, as skis turn East, that's creating counter manually.
True
post #35 of 57
72: "Let the counter develop naturally as a function of the difference between where your feet are pointing and where your torso is pointing."

This is what I see in Hosp's montage. In her series it happens very late in the turn.
post #36 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
72: "Let the counter develop naturally as a function of the difference between where your feet are pointing and where your torso is pointing."

This is what I see in Hosp's montage. In her series it happens very late in the turn.
Yes I agreed with your assessment when i read it.
post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
OK,,, example: Skier enters transition with skis and body pointing north.

- If the skis begin to turn East, and the body remains facing North, that's pure skiing into counter.

-If body turns East in harmony with the skis, that's NOT skiing into counter.

-If body turns East, but not as much as the skis, that's skiing into counter a little.

-If body turns West, as skis turn East, that's creating counter manually.
Sounds good to me.

WRT the analysis of Hosp. Maybe should we start a different thread?
post #38 of 57
Thread Starter 
Whoa, fellas! Let's not make this more than it is! I love how these Epic threads get so technical. With respect to my own skiing, I think BTS's words really summarize what Bart felt I should work on:

I thought it had been established already that skiing into counter was a way of acheiving counter, without actually "counter-acting". Letting the skis steer underneath you while you cause your torso and upper body to not follow the skis completely.

He obviously felt that there was some level of artificiality in how I was "creating counter" with movements as opposed to letting the turning motion of the legs under the body create it... no more, no less.

Mike

PS - Bart didn't give me exercises because he really wasn't asked, and there was little time. For the most part, he was skiing with other instructors form our school, and the time we had was limited to only a couple of runs with a large group.
post #39 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmckimson View Post
...his only specific recommendation as it related to my skiing was that he would like to see me "skiing into counter" a little more.

What does his comment mean to you? How do you achieve it? I look forward to your responses!

Mike
Many good and correct responces so far but I thaught I would express my viewpoint.

The instructor ment that he would have liked you to apply some more counter. Not only that, he wanted you to apply it proggressively through out the turn. He wanted you to ski into it.

There are two ways of looking at it, fall line to fall line (more of a SL type of turn with little gate offset) or transition to transition (speed skiing).

Lets first look at the "fall line to fall line". In this case you would start out at the fall line with your upper body and your skis alligned down the hill. That would be called a square stance. From there as your skis would have been turning across the hill your upper body would have remained facing down the hill and there would have been an upper and lower body separation in form of rotation between the two body parts created progressively. This is what is called "skiing into counter". Its not a mechanical rotation of your upper body to create counter. At the same time it is allso "skiing into anticipation" since as you make your transition your upper body would have been facing down hill waiting to be unwinded as your skis started to turn down the hill to allign your upper and lower body square down the hill at the fall line. This kind of progression does not have something they call "upside down position".

If you were doing it from transition to transition then it would be exatly the same only with different timing. One difference, insted of skiing into anticipation you would for an "upside down position" right after the transition and your counter would be progressively building up before the fall line.
post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmckimson View Post
He obviously felt that there was some level of artificiality in how I was "creating counter" with movements as opposed to letting the turning motion of the legs under the body create it... no more, no less.
This "letting" is not as easy as it sounds. It demands a much higher level of finesse and awareness than does artificially creating counter.

Assuming that you have a student that artificially creates counter, are there any suggestions for drills to decrease/better manage that counter?
post #41 of 57
Uphill christies into an increasingly countered position. By that I mean create a little counter, then create a little more counter, then a little more, etc.

Use crossed poles to sight a downhill target in the "V" and make turns keeping the target in the V. In short turns, you can use tapping the poles together to make an auditory rhythmic turn timer.

Pivot slips might be the last step to separating upper and lower body parts.
post #42 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
it is allowing the skates/skis to follow a rounders path than the torso.
Weird to quote yourself but maybe this phrase will help you guys develop some drills. I use the pole frame which I assume is much like Kneale's "v" but what works better for me is a variation of the pole box drill (gotta drag both simultaneously though) along with a strong mental focus on feeling the legs turning in the hip sockets. Why? Ever see a student move their arms to keep line of sight with an object down the hill but their shoulders follow the skis through the turn?
post #43 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Ever see a student move their arms to keep line of sight with an object down the hill but their shoulders follow the skis through the turn?
Oh yea JASP, that is what happens almost every time with intermediate and lower level skiers when trying to get them to develop some counter. No doubt.

I think there are two sets of goals here. One is taking a skier that can't counter and trying to help them to start doing it. Another is to take someone like the OP and help them use more finese. More finely controlled counter.

As to what kinds of drills to work on that, I'm not sure of a good one right now. I think I would be more inclined to look at a specific case and try to determine more precisely why they might be lacking this finese. Just telling them to ski into counter more, MIGHT help them to lay off on some of the counter-action and just keep trying until they get it. Or might not. For example, perhaps they are not getting enough projection of their upper body into the inside of the new turn, as in frame #2 of the montage above. Hosp has her upper body facing pretty darn close to the gate starting from before frame #1 and lasting for quite a while as the skis make lots of changes in path and she changes edges even. If I saw weakness there I might choose to focus just on that.

Lots of time people tend to say something like "keep your upper body facing down the fall line", etc. But in reality perhaps we want the upper body to switch from facing one side to the other side of the trail, (as if there are imaginary gates there), while the skis go even wider.

I think finding objects on the terrain and working with them to perform turns relative to certain objects and making them aware of where their body is facing while they execute that turn may help them get a feel for it. This is for advanced skiers and requires very careful setup by an instructor to avoid getting it wrong.
post #44 of 57
If I had somone "faking counter"..ie putting in more then was naturally generated I would consider:

Gorilla Turns
Double Pole Plants
Handcuff drill
Soldier Turns

If I said someone who showed no counter, but should have for the turn generated, I would consider:

Power Plows
Spiess
Pivot Slips
Delay turns

These would create a different feeling to the one they previously had, you would then refine from there.
post #45 of 57
Agreed BTS, That's why the pole box drag while turning the legs to create turns works so well. The upper body is forced to remain relatively stable, quiet and on target while the legs get the task of figuring out what it will take for them to create turns.
post #46 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I'm sorry I mentioned Bart's name. How about we refrain from saying things that will slander him, he's not even here to defend himself. Skiing into counter is used commonly throughout the industry in recent times.
I work with the said L4 on a regular basis, and I know exactly where he is coming from with this phrase (Ski into counter).

I have seen hundreds, yes, hundreds, of Instructor candidates "force" an unnatural countered position, mainly by twisting their upper body into a countered position, as opposed to letting counter rotation happen as a result of turning their legs under and independently of their upper body.

Probably because they have seen others do it, and from photo montages, and not realising how to get to the final position.

The phrase that we tend to use alongside these days is "natural separation".
post #47 of 57
I like "natural separation" as a description of skiing into counter. It's important that the torso (pelvis through shoulders) be sufficiently relaxed to allow separation to occur rather than be so tensed separation can only happen artificially.
post #48 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by veeeight View Post
....
The phrase that we tend to use alongside these days is "natural separation".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
I like "natural separation" as a description of skiing into counter. It's important that the torso (pelvis through shoulders) be sufficiently relaxed to allow separation to occur rather than be so tensed separation can only happen artificially.
Yet another reason I love participating here on EpicSki. Natural separation is a great description of what we are after with our skiiers. I'm going to steal that term and use it along with forced separation to describe what we don't want to see happen.

Thanks.
post #49 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by veeeight View Post
The phrase that we tend to use alongside these days is "natural separation".
I like this term a lot. I believe it represents exactly what Bart was suggesting could be improved in my own skiing.

Mike
post #50 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
If I had somone "faking counter"..ie putting in more then was naturally generated I would consider:

Gorilla Turns
Double Pole Plants
Handcuff drill
Soldier Turns

If I said someone who showed no counter, but should have for the turn generated, I would consider:

Power Plows
Spiess
Pivot Slips
Delay turns

These would create a different feeling to the one they previously had, you would then refine from there.
Thanks 'dude.

Are soldier turns the same as cossack turns?
post #51 of 57
I forgot to ask Skidude what both the Soldier turn and Handcuff drill are and whether power plows were the same as wedgelocks.
post #52 of 57
Soldier Turns are done through, no angulation, or counter....really just tip to turn...think how a soldier standing at "Attention" would ski.

Handcuff drill is skiing with your hands together, high, infront...like a very high tuck.

These drills basically help people get a feel for skiing more square to their skis, good in this case for someone who is artifically generating counter...

Powerplows are like a high performance turn, but in a wedge...the inside ski is often lifted right off the snow. Not the same as a wedge lock, as I understand a wedge lock, is akin to just locking the edge on...a power plow actually involves all the mechanics of a good turn...it forces counter....again good for someone who skis with none.

Not sure what Cossack turns are.
post #53 of 57
I must say that picking up the inside ski but leaving it in a wedge is pretty old school (a converging step turn comes to mind). Good drill though. My question would be if you use a sequential edge release during this drill?
post #54 of 57
Here's another version SD, white pass wedges. Legs have to work independently from the torso just to accomplish the maneuver.
post #55 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Not sure what Cossack turns are.
Cossack turns are with arms crossed in front at chest height. Decreases the moment of inertia of the upper body which reduces rotational stability, i.e. easier to spin. As a drill, this makes one much more aware of separation and torque through the hips and core.

You can ski this drill:

- with active effort through the core
- to assess symmetry
- with relaxation (create separation with pivoting or functional lead change)
- to unmask top down rotational problems
- etc, etc, etc
post #56 of 57
Can you see a Cossak Soldier doing a Powerplow?

Couldn't figure out any way to Handcuff him, though.
post #57 of 57


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Skiing into counter to me means allowing creation of a separation of upper and lower body alignment, with the torso aiming toward where you WILL be going next while the skis and legs are pointing where you ARE going right now.

It serves as preparation for the next turn and contributes to center of mass flow between turns.


Hmm, this got me thinking.  I was looking at the pic and Kneale's comments above about preparation and flow between turns.  Why is it that I always hear about skiing into counter, but never about skiing OUT of it?  When i first looked at the pic after reading these comments, I immediately focused on image one, not two or three because I could tell that just prior to pic one she must have had some counter and pic one shows her unwinding that to facilitate Kneale's definition above.  Perhaps our focus on the intermediate shouldn't be so much about skiing into it, but show them how to ski out of it.  From my perspective, it seems more natural to ski into counter than it does to ski out of it sometimes, and that's where the flow really happens. 

 

Just a thought - feel free to slap me if I'm way out there on this one.

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