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Is tip to turn universal? - Page 5

post #121 of 139
Bud and others can answer that much better than I, but in a nutshell, pronation and eversion are ALMOST the same thing...and are often interchanged, but my understanding is that pronation is more related to a flattening of the arch, which results in the ankle rolling inward. Eversion on the other hand is more to do with just the ankle rolling inward(toward the BTE side of the foot).

And no, you don't want your feet locked in plaster. You don't want them slopping around either. But you need to be able to evert the ankle in your boot. Its a very subtle movement, it does not take much room for it to happen. Your foot does not need to slop around for it.

In your bare feet, set your foot on the ground and look down at it. Hold the foot planted firmly on the ground and roll it inward without letting the bottom of your foot leave the ground and without letting your knee move inwards either. Do it all inside your ankle. You shouldn't be able to go very far that way. But look at your achilles tendon while you do this. You should see it bend ever so slightly to the inside. The overall movement of your foot should have been minimal, but internally inside your foot the balance shift is massive. That is eversion.

You need to be able to do that in your boot. You can block that by making a boot too tight. You can also block that by having too firm of a post under your footbed. Yet if you have a pronation issue, then a firmer post may be necessary. Some people use footbeds that can hold the arch but have just a wee bit of give to them to allow eversion to happen.
post #122 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
For the benefit of us with a less-practiced vocabulary, could you please define evertion, pronation, etcetera.

Also my race boots fit my feet like a a plaster cast, and my other boots have just a little extra unwanted room around the heel. What do you mean by moving the ankle inside the boot. :

I have fumbled my wording on this before but let me try again.
Inversion: an inward movement of the foot toward centerline. This is sometimes grouped with supination but they are not necessarily the same but the direction of movement is the same.
Eversion: an outward movement of the foot away from centerline. This is sometimes grouped with pronation but again they are not necessarily the same but the direction is the same.

No matter how snuggly your boot fits you are able to articulate your foot to apply pressure to different areas. It is the action that then transmits the force through the boot. The snugger the boot the less delay in the energy transmission.
post #123 of 139
Oh that's interesting, that helps me a lot bud. Inversion means "moving towards centerline" and eversion means "moving away from centerline". I always thought inversion was about moving towards the LTE side and eversion was moving towards the BTE side.
post #124 of 139
That works too! I borrowed those terms from: "ab" means away from centerline too as in abstem or abduction, and "add" means moving toward centerline as in adduction. It is only important to understand which direction the foot is moving and it is perhaps easier to remember if you think about "IN"version as the foot tipping IN?
post #125 of 139
The boot guys I have worked with refer to "eversion" as the foot tipping in...as in....tipping to the BTE edge. But its also certainly possible that I completely misunderstood them this whole time. I guess they were meaning, tipping OUT from centerline? But how do you distinguish the difference between tipping out tot he BTE side or LTE side?
post #126 of 139
This is exactly how I confused people in another thread last year, and why it is easier for most to associate eversion with pronation.
post #127 of 139
BTS, think of it this way:

Inversion is tipping the foot such that the sole of the foot faces IN. The big toe lifts. Invert both feet and the soles of the feet face each other.

Not an exact explanation of the movement, but it helps keep straight in the mind the direction of the movement.
post #128 of 139
Yea that was my understanding of the direction of inversion. I'm more questioning Bud's definition, and he's a boot guy so I am trying to learn the exact and correct definitions according to foot people, I am clearly not.

He mentioned that inversion was moving towards centerline and eversion is moving away from centerline. I was understanding centerline to be neutral. By that definition then I would view the movement away from centerline that Rick just described as "eversion", though my previous understanding before this thread was to describe that as inversion, just as Rick described it....lifting the BTE, or tipping towards the LTE. Eversion being the opposite, lifting the LTE and tipping towards BTE.
post #129 of 139
the centerline I am referring to is the centerline that splits the body in half. We are all coming to the same conclusion so use whatever definition works for you.

What could be a bit confusing is some may be thinking which direction the ankle goes and others, which way the sole of the foot goes, which are opposite directions.

I like Rick's easy to remember definition: lift the big toe = inversion, lift the pinky toe = eversion.

It really is not that big of a deal as long as you have it straight in your own mind. We really must be bored?...
post #130 of 139
Cool, I had it right to begin with. he he..
post #131 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
What do you mean by moving the ankle inside the boot. :
Stand up. Now, barely pick up one foot and balance on one leg. To balance, notice the foot and ankle are extremely active. Yes? Try the other foot. Same?

In a locked down ski boot, I've closed down the ability to use my feet to balance.

Only elite gate chasers should consider a 'rigid' orthotic. For the rest of us, we need a bit more ankle articulation for balancing.
post #132 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
A goal is always to feel what the skis are doing. Of course, knowing what to feel is critical.
Anja Paerson: http://www.skiracing.com/index.php?o...656&Ite mid=2

“In recent years I have pushed really hard at the material... I have a good feeling in my feet and I know most of the time in what direction I want the material to go. Now we can be faster...and focus more on the small details and on finding peace in training with skis we know ... are effective at their purpose.”
post #133 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
Stand up. Now, barely pick up one foot and balance on one leg. To balance, notice the foot and ankle are extremely active. Yes? Try the other foot. Same?

In a locked down ski boot, I've closed down the ability to use my feet to balance.

Only elite gate chasers should consider a 'rigid' orthotic. For the rest of us, we need a bit more ankle articulation for balancing.


What do you mean by "locked down"? This may be misleading to some?


I disagree here. a more rigid orthotic is good for a very mobil foot and a softer one is better for a more rigid foot and my thinking is the foot should always have the ability to articulate a bit and pronate inside the boot to balance effectively. Doesn't really matter the level of athleticism.
post #134 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
Only elite gate chasers should consider a 'rigid' orthotic. For the rest of us, we need a bit more ankle articulation for balancing.
Are you saying that a skilled racer aiming for the best time in a course would have better control with the foot solidly casted into the boot shell, but most of us would perform better without that degree of closeness between flesh and plastic?


BTW, I tried your test and noticed that without the boots there is a preference to use the ankle more and with the ankle locked in place the knee and hip compensate. It feels different, but at least for me the direct connection is worth the compensation. I don't chase gates, but I find I have better response, power and control with the race-fit boots. Maybe it's just what I got used to.
post #135 of 139
Utilizing the ankle inside the boot helps you balance. It's much harder to balance with a cast on your ankle than without, as the body finds it more difficult to balance once you take the articulation of the ankle out of the equation.

IMO, this ease of balance is what drove the soft boot industry -- IMO, that went too far. However, I see a trend for instructors/coaches to guide their students to using softer boots.
post #136 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Oh that's interesting, that helps me a lot bud. Inversion means "moving towards centerline" and eversion means "moving away from centerline". I always thought inversion was about moving towards the LTE side and eversion was moving towards the BTE side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
The boot guys I have worked with refer to "eversion" as the foot tipping in...as in....tipping to the BTE edge. But its also certainly possible that I completely misunderstood them this whole time. I guess they were meaning, tipping OUT from centerline? But how do you distinguish the difference between tipping out tot he BTE side or LTE side?


With eversion the little toe rises the big toe goes down, the foot tips out the ankle tips in. This is where many are getting confused because some are thinking ankle and some are thinking foot which go the opposite directions in both inversion and eversion.

Eversion - ankle goes inward and foot rolls outward
Inversion - ankle goes outward and foot rolls inward.
post #137 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Utilizing the ankle inside the boot helps you balance. It's much harder to balance with a cast on your ankle than without, as the body finds it more difficult to balance once you take the articulation of the ankle out of the equation.

IMO, this ease of balance is what drove the soft boot industry -- IMO, that went too far. However, I see a trend for instructors/coaches to guide their students to using softer boots.

I have said this many times before, as you ski in a progressively stiffer boot it is progressively more important to have the boot fit and alignment optimized to get the most advantage out of the stiffer boot. A bit off in a softer boot and the skier can compromise more easily to overcome the boot misalignments but in a stiffer boot this becomes more difficult to do.
post #138 of 139
Bud,

That's completely true. But so is the need for some ankle articulation inside the boot. When many folks think "Race fit", they think close fitting cement stiff boots. Boots will get punched on the inside of the ankle to provide for a little ankle movement inside the boot when that is lacking.

However, for the vast majority of skiers (those 5-10 times/season rec skiers) a softer boot will be much more fun than a custom fit racing machine. These folks are most unlikely to add on the expense of a custom fit, so, as you say, a softer boot allows them to overcome the boot misalignments (if they are not too severe).
post #139 of 139
no disagreement here.
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