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Rise Againest the elistist hippies!!

post #1 of 50
Thread Starter 
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article...rness/C41/L41/

leave a comment for jill right there.
post #2 of 50
I left my comment. Thanks for the link.
JF
post #3 of 50
Bikes don't trash trails . People do.....when too many ride bikes on them.
post #4 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Bikes don't trash trails . People do.....when too many ride bikes on them.
eh, as if horse dont do more? and as if hiker who can go in 7 miles. Fish, expel solid human waste and make camps sites do less than a biker doing a 30 mile epic.

In the case of this trail not enough bike can ride to erode.

Wilderness isnt the problem its the way the law is written. Horses out bikers in. XC mountain biking is the lowest impact of any of them over a long distance.
post #5 of 50
I think you should make signs and stand at the trail head heckling hikers.

Furthermore, I'd say that if there are erosion problems or whatever they want to try and blame on bikes, then it's the fault of the trail, not the people using it.
post #6 of 50
I think they should ban access and actually make it a wilderness.
post #7 of 50
They should graze, mine and drill it then build a Lowe's on it.
post #8 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
They should graze, mine and drill it then build a Lowe's on it.
Sure, let's start with your next door neighbor's property.

There are fundamental differences between 'hiking trails' and 'MTB trails', hiking trails almost always take a very direct route, if they don't they soon will as hikers take the shortest path possible. Hiking trails in hilly regions almost always quickly turn into a series of rocky steps. MTB trails, on the other, need to be built out of the fall line. You just can't pedal up a slope that you can hike up. Modern trail building uses series of grade reversals, low gentle grades and wide switch backs that don't require skidding to negotiate in either direction.

...and mountain bikers give back, we work on trail days to get trails open in the spring and to correct problems that develop. Hikers go hiking.
post #9 of 50
Oh yeah, best comment:

The person who pointed out that the MTBer's were on the trail, the protesters were standing off the trail and so was the photographer. Stupid.
post #10 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
eh, as if horse dont do more? and as if hiker who can go in 7 miles. Fish, expel solid human waste and make camps sites do less than a biker doing a 30 mile epic.

In the case of this trail not enough bike can ride to erode.

Wilderness isnt the problem its the way the law is written. Horses out bikers in*-. XC mountain biking is the lowest impact of any of them over a long distance.
yeah Horses. After climbing a ridge on foot I came down a cool trail near my home . It was getting dark and it intersected with another that headed west so I took it. It was a horse used trail and boy was it fertilized well.Turds in huge piles all the way down and pretty hard to miss in the coming darkness. Why do we want poop machines in the wilderness ? How about they stop and clean their messes when they make them instead of ignoring them and continuing. If you bring an animal into the wilderness then how about being responsible towards minimizing it's affect ?

The bike comment came from riders not staying on the trails and cutting off switchbacks and massively disturbing the soil and plant life as they did.

I know more educated riders know to stay on trail just like decent hikers but it doesn't seem to take many trips to cause quite a bit of damage.

It's not so much riders in general but particular riders who just don't care.

Like Whiteroom noted it's all groups but some are more capable of higher degrees of damage unless they show respect for wilderness areas.

It's a responsibility and it's up to us to school our buddies or those we see, in their selfishness , that can ruin it for so many more


Hikers just rebuilt a large trail system near my home after the deep snowfall and run off damage . They did a nice job removing fallen trees and planning for drainage that doesn't allow for the path to be a new creek bed seasonally. You can't make blanket statements and expect them to be accurate
post #11 of 50
That article is one of the best examples of hypocritical wilderness exceptionalism I have seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Sure, let's start with your next door neighbor's property.

There are fundamental differences between 'hiking trails' and 'MTB trails', hiking trails almost always take a very direct route, if they don't they soon will as hikers take the shortest path possible. Hiking trails in hilly regions almost always quickly turn into a series of rocky steps. MTB trails, on the other, need to be built out of the fall line. You just can't pedal up a slope that you can hike up. Modern trail building uses series of grade reversals, low gentle grades and wide switch backs that don't require skidding to negotiate in either direction.

...and mountain bikers give back, we work on trail days to get trails open in the spring and to correct problems that develop. Hikers go hiking.
Funny thing is that trails the go right up the hill like those you describe as not suitable for MTBs generally are not environmentally sustainable anyway, no matter who is using them. If the trail is down to bedrock all of the erosion has already occured.
post #12 of 50
In these neck of the woods we just follow the Deer trails.
post #13 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
yeah Horses. Turds in huge piles all the way down and pretty hard to miss in the coming darkness. Why do we want poop machines in the wilderness ? How about they stop and clean their messes when they make them instead of ignoring them and continuing. If you bring an animal into the wilderness then how about being responsible towards minimizing it's affect ?
I encounter this problem daily.



I have been riding a Mt. bike since before there were production models. I even got a ticket once for riding in a "Wilderness area", I really had no clue that they weren't allowed. After I was turned around I read the sign at the trailhead that talked about mechanized vehicles & HANG GLIDERS . All I could do was scratch my head, as the FS trail supervisor who gave me the ticket was carrying a gas chainsaw.

In the early days I will admit that many riders weren't very responsible, but with education the impact has changed a lot for the better. Improved trail design has also made a huge impact. In the beggining the equestrians were out to stop all Mt. bikers from riding on "their" trails. They were an organized, vocal minority. As Mt. biking became more popular, bikers began to organize, became more responsible & actually helped evolve trail design & lessen impact. The advent & popularity of DH bikes had me worried that all the progress would be lost, but it seems that they usually stay in the lift served areas & after a few years their technique improved & they learned to quit locking the brakes up.

I wonder how many Mt. bikers there are now compared to horseback riders in this country?


JF
post #14 of 50
Excellent post 4ster.

Mountain Biking, and Mt bikers, have changed a lot over the last 20 years, having a minimal impact is STRESSED. Bikes have evolved allowing for a level of control that was never dreamed of in the 80's, it's easy to ride without skidding, trails don't get torn up. I think if anyone with an open mind were to take a look at a 'hiking trail' and a 'MTB trail' they would be very surprised by which trail was more sustainable and which trail had less impact on wildlife.

As for DH riding... that's a red herring. There aren't packs of punk kids out tearing down hiking trails scaring everything in their path. Unless you hike at the Whistler Bike Park you aren't going to run into DHers. It is a VERY small user group, they need lifts or roads to access terrain. Talking about downhill mt biking at the same time as wilderness access is ridiculous. It just isn't applicable to the conversation. It's like talking about XC ski touring and then bringing up heli/ cat skiing... it isn't the same activity, there's no cross over.
post #15 of 50
Here is another article that provides a bit more insight into the historical motivatgion for the Wilderness Act:

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/html/Ar...Wilderness.htm

Note the paragraph about the 'Leave No Trace' initiative of the 1990's and it's huge improvement to the environment... if hikers/ campers/ hunters can clean up their act why not give cyclist a shot at proving we can fit in?

I'm all for Wilderness, I just can't understand how Hiking, Fishing, Hunting, Rafting, Skiing, Snowshoeing, Horseback Riding (even commercial outfitting) and Camping are OK, but riding a bicycle isn't... it doesn't make any sense.

I'd honestly rather see ALL humans kept out, at least that would make sense. It wouldn't be self righteous window dressing.
post #16 of 50
The distinction between mechanical transport devices that are allowed like AT and telemark ski bindings and devices that are not allowed such as bicycles and other wheeled devices in wilderness seems capricious. I understand that historically bikes were allowed in designated Wilderness areas.

Here are a couple of articles that discusses the issue with some perspecitve and wisdom.

http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=376

http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/arti...ry=departments
post #17 of 50
Tromano,
Thanks for the links!
JF
post #18 of 50
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=70188

http://wvmba.freeforums.org/protect-...o-ride-f5.html

I'll say it again, don't fight with the other factions for trail access. Everyone will lose! The real 'enemy' is the DNR/NPS. I wonder how Jill would feel if they actually turned these trails into a wilderness area. When this happens, it is often illegal to maintain the trail. After a period of time, the trail becomes overgrown, covered with tree falls, etc. Several trails here in the New River Gorge have overgrown to the point of being unusable. The DNR/NPS has deemed the land should 'revert to nature'. It is almost unhikeable in areas now. I know a 90 year old man, he was arrested for flipping over stones, looking for helgamites to fish with.

It amazes me how often people complain about erosion, trash, and others use of trails. Seldom do I see anyone doing any trail maintainance. Share the trails, like you should share the road (hopefully).

If you believe strongly in keeping the trails open, use the link above, sign the petion, and join IMBA.
post #19 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=70188

http://wvmba.freeforums.org/protect-...o-ride-f5.html

I'll say it again, don't fight with the other factions for trail access. Everyone will lose! The real 'enemy' is the DNR/NPS. I wonder how Jill would feel if they actually turned these trails into a wilderness area. When this happens, it is often illegal to maintain the trail. After a period of time, the trail becomes overgrown, covered with tree falls, etc. Several trails here in the New River Gorge have overgrown to the point of being unusable. The DNR/NPS has deemed the land should 'revert to nature'. It is almost unhikeable in areas now. I know a 90 year old man, he was arrested for flipping over stones, looking for helgamites to fish with.

It amazes me how often people complain about erosion, trash, and others use of trails. Seldom do I see anyone doing any trail maintainance. Share the trails, like you should share the road (hopefully).

If you believe strongly in keeping the trails open, use the link above, sign the petion, and join IMBA.
whats happening up in the Dolly Sods is a real shame. I say after it goes to wilderness you guys should schedule a group ride there and just pedal your hearts out!!
post #20 of 50
When the Wilderness Act was created they used the exclusion of "mechanized" travel, which was before mountain bikes were invented. The irony is that the actal intent could very well have been to just exclude motorized vehicles and not human powered ones. Unfortunately, we are now stuck with the semantics of the original act and changing it will literally take an act of Congress. It's like making it illegal to canoe through wilderness.
post #21 of 50
The articles I link below disputes that bikes were ever considered to be mechanized transport under the 1964 act. It seems that bikes were permitted before being banned specifically in 1977, permitted again again between 1981 and 1984 before being banned again in 1984.

http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/arti...ry=departments
post #22 of 50
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takea...689073280#body

Not sure how this petition ended up here. It used to be on the wvmba site. Just over 1000 signatures, pretty weak!
post #23 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=70188

http://wvmba.freeforums.org/protect-...o-ride-f5.html

I'll say it again, don't fight with the other factions for trail access.
I agree 100%. I think of myself as a MTB'er first, but I also own horses and live in a very equestrian area. I ride horse trails everyday on my MTB. Yes, they damage the trails, yes, they leave waste. Just deal with it!
Your not going to get them banned, without MTB's also being banned. Try, being a little tolerant of other people.
post #24 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHREDHEAD View Post
I agree 100%. I think of myself as a MTB'er first, but I also own horses and live in a very equestrian area. I ride horse trails everyday on my MTB. Yes, they damage the trails, yes, they leave waste. Just deal with it!
Your not going to get them banned, without MTB's also being banned. Try, being a little tolerant of other people.
If other animals poop on the trail they are expected to clean it up . Why is it about you and other horse users that allows you to hold no respect for other users of the trail ? Clean up after your animal or stay off the trails. If not then expect the wrath of other more considerate users.
post #25 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Bikes don't trash trails . People do.....when too many ride bikes on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
If other animals poop on the trail they are expected to clean it up . Why is it about you and other horse users that allows you to hold no respect for other users of the trail ? Clean up after your animal or stay off the trails. If not then expect the wrath of other more considerate users.
So you don't want either one on the trails? How much do bikes really trash trails? I see wild animals shit on the trail everyday, who cleans up after them?
Horse shit is pretty innocuous stuff, it's grass.

In my area, the trails wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the horse clubs that got the easements. Many in the clubs don't want hikers or bikers too use the trails. They are afraid that once another group gets access, that horses could be pushed out.


I am out there everyday and see how little they are actually used. I think with a little tolerance, everybody should be able to share the trails.
post #26 of 50
Bun Bag Baby...Bun Bag!

http://www.bunbag.com/
post #27 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHREDHEAD View Post
Horse shit is pretty innocuous stuff, it's grass.

I think with a little tolerance, everybody should be able to share the trails.
It's not innocuous to me, it's disgusting, it attracts biting flies, it smells, it sticks to my boots when I'm hiking, it is usually right in the crux of a turn when I'm riding, it sticks to my glasses, it jams up my cables, chain & gears.

I can be tolerant, & some of your points about equestrians developing some of the older trails are valid. I don't expect everyone to go out & get "Bun Bags", just clean the crap up, or at least get it off the trail. The parking areas should be cleaned up by responsible owners as well. I see a few people actually bring shovels & put the crap in their trailer before they leave. These folks usually get a big smile & a thank you from me. I've seen others actually shovel their trailers out into the parking area, all I can give them is a frown. Why do horse people think their sh*t doesn't stink.

Where I live, part of our trail system is on private land & horses are not allowed. The change in conditions when moving from the bike section into the horse section is dramatic.

I would only ask two things to make a huge improvement to get along better.

1. Clean up your crap.
&
2. Don't ride when it is wet. This one goes for both bikes & horses.

Thanks,

JF
post #28 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post
It's not innocuous to me, it's disgusting, it attracts biting flies, it smells, it sticks to my boots when I'm hiking, it is usually right in the crux of a turn when I'm riding, it sticks to my glasses, it jams up my cables, chain & gears.

I can be tolerant, & some of your points about equestrians developing some of the older trails are valid. I don't expect everyone to go out & get "Bun Bags", just clean the crap up, or at least get it off the trail. The parking areas should be cleaned up by responsible owners as well. I see a few people actually bring shovels & put the crap in their trailer before they leave. These folks usually get a big smile & a thank you from me. I've seen others actually shovel their trailers out into the parking area, all I can give them is a frown. Why do horse people think their sh*t doesn't stink.

Where I live, part of our trail system is on private land & horses are not allowed. The change in conditions when moving from the bike section into the horse section is dramatic.

I would only ask two things to make a huge improvement to get along better.

1. Clean up your crap.
&
2. Don't ride when it is wet. This one goes for both bikes & horses.

Thanks,

JF
In American Fork horses are now required to wear bun bags!!!

why you may ask? the recent trail maintence guys have been hikers/biker/motos but there has been no horse people. So now the NFS in American Fork has new rules as off last weekend.

simple getting the crap off trail would help alot of people out.

In Pittsburgh we had anti horse defense, it was called giant log piles everywhere. the horse were technically allowed where the trails were built buy MTBers, but due to the numerous log piles and granite shelfs we effectively made them horse proof with out changing any laws.
post #29 of 50
Ask Biff what he thinks of horse manure......
post #30 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
In Pittsburgh we had anti horse defense, it was called giant log piles everywhere. the horse were technically allowed where the trails were built buy MTBers, but due to the numerous log piles and granite shelfs we effectively made them horse proof with out changing any laws.
You really are a "Monkey Wrencher" aren't you .

It's the same thing up here, there are a lot more MTBer's working on the trails than horse people. If everyone used a little ettiquete & common sense, I think we could all get along better.

JF
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