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The Rotary Debate - Page 8  

post #211 of 236
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Hi C is better used as a drink base than a standard SL/GS technique.

But for relaxed free skiing, where speed and line tightening are not a concern? By all means, roll and engage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max
My understanding is that the High C is the part of the turn before the fall line and is needed for arc to arc skiing. Perhaps you had something else in mind?
Max, where did you find that? I don't even remember writing it,,, it must be pretty old. Have you bookmarked everything I've written, or something? Amazing my archive postings you come up with. Could you provide a link to the conversation so we have some context? Thanks.
post #212 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolter View Post
Thanks for that.
Why must I peek inside of a world in which I live? Do you think I am on the outside looking in?
For others, Bolter. It's not all about you.
post #213 of 236
Now, Bolter, I have to leave for a while. Please, if I don't respond to something you say, don't get mad and put me on ignore again.
post #214 of 236
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Max, where did you find that? I don't even remember writing it,,, it must be pretty old. Have you bookmarked everything I've written, or something? Amazing my archive postings you come up with. Could you provide a link to the conversation so we have some context? Thanks.
Click on the little arrow icon and it'll take you to the quote.

I've been rereading a bunch of old debate threads trying to find common ground. So far not much luck.
post #215 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
For others, Bolter. It's not all about you.
It's not? I'm putting EVERYONE on ignore right now until this situation changes!
post #216 of 236
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Just to provide a peek inside the race training world.
I'll add a bit on what's happening in the race world. This summer (up at Hood) I've seen many coaches working with their racers on lift and tip of the outside ski drills and I'm seeing lift and tip in the SL courses. BTW, lift and tip is used at the release/transition/engagement phase. In general, the ski is set back down on the snow by the fall line.

Retraction (outside leg flexion) seems to be the release being worked on most of the time (but there are some that are working on an extension to release).

Coaches putting emphasis on arc to arc. Very little work being done on redirection/pivot type drills.
post #217 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Click on the little arrow icon and it'll take you to the quote.

I've been rereading a bunch of old debate threads trying to find common ground. So far not much luck.
Thanks, Max. Golly, all these years here, and I'm still learnin.

Here's the whole post:


Quote:
Rusty, I'd pretty much guarantee that Greg could early engage for you on request. And I'd agree with you on it's appropriateness as something to shoot for on the recreational level, and on moderate to flat GS courses with little offset, or flat, straight SL sections.

But take a look at the nice video of Rocca you did for us. How much pre falline carve engagement do you see? While not all slalom turns display this amount of redirection, most display some, with edge engagement not occurring till near the falline. Even WC GS turns now display a pervasive use of this delayed engagement, pre carve redirection tactic. Hi C is better used as a drink base than a standard SL/GS technique.

But for relaxed free skiing, where speed and line tightening are not a concern? By all means, roll and engage.
This post was a responce to The Rusty, explaining why HeluvaSkeir was working on a pivoted turn entry. From my comments, it's clear I was saying that WC racing is a blend of arc to arc, and pivot entries (see bold). If you read the post in it's entirity, it's obvious I'm not saying arc to arc is not part of WC ski racing. Just that pivoting, at that point in time, had experieced growing application in WC racing. And especially on the steeper, more offset sections of a course. And especially in Slalom.

I would think we could find common ground in at least that (if for the moment you ignore that secondary topic of how that pivoting is executed). Max?

Ok,,, now I've really got to go. Jeesh! :
post #218 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
it's all about building a strong fundamental skill base of balance and edging. Beyond that which most deem ideal. Refined to a high degree, in small, incremental steps. It's a pyramid philosophy. The wider you build the base, the easier, and higher you can build later.
That makes sense to me. You agree with Bolter that this approach is "engineered from the beginner up"?

It would be very interesting to find out if you agree or why you (BTS, BB, and others) disagree with Bolter's observation that "PMTS movements are derived from elite skiing (WC) and reversed engineered to the beginning level. The first movements learned are the same as the movements of the elite."

They are very different teaching approaches. PMTS states that ACBAES faster than with "traditional" teaching (which I suppose is similar to yours). Some experienced skiers/instructors here seem to state that PMTS results in "limited" skiers (which I suppose means difficulty in certain terrains, conditions). At least in theory, these are real differences. I don't really care if I I learn WC movements first or last. That's just a means, suitable or not, to get me to the goal of beeing able to roam the mountain with speed and grace. The key question for me is which approach will get me closer to that goal faster. The answer to this question from Bolter's posts is unequivocally PMTS. Your student carving after 7 days makes me drool. But that may be an exception.

Guys,

I have an idea to shed more light on the issues of instructional effectivenesss and limitations with your participation in the following experiment. It's shamelessly self-serving but I think you will like it.

I am going to be the guinea pig. This season I will probably be able to ski about 5-10 days at Mountain High (can also go to Snow Summit or Big Bear) and Mammoth and perhaps a few days in Tahoe. I will continue my self-training based on HH's books and video. If someone here could spend 15 min video my skiing each time for everyone to see my progress or lack of it, we will have a lot of data for a good discussion. I will try to ski my best in whatever situation the cameraman wants me to. All my ski problems, limitations will be displayed. The PMTS experts can point out if the a particular issue is due to my misunderstanding or poor execution of PMTS movements. I think we can also get good input from the other forum regarding learning PMTS movements. I will then try to correct them the next time and we can all see the difficulty or ease I have with learning these movements.

Although we wouldn't have a direct comparison with a similar student taught with a non-PMTS approach, I think the experienced instructors here can look at the videos and discuss what would be better if I had done something non-PMTS under their instruction.

I am probably a typical recreational skier that shows up for lessons. I have no known physical handicap. As you can see in my video, I am probably an "experienced beginner", not good enough to skew the results of the experiment. This way we can have a really good discussion without any problems caused by real or perceived personal attacks. The only ego to be bruised is mine. But it has been so diminished by the yard sales, face plants, and sore muscles I experience that ego is never a factor for me in skiing.

BTW, beers are on me for the cameramen.

Chuck
post #219 of 236
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Just that pivoting, at that point in time, had experieced growing application in WC racing. And especially on the steeper, more offset sections of a course. And especially in Slalom.

I would think we could find common ground in at least that (if for the moment you ignore that secondary topic of how that pivoting is executed). Max?
I don't think I'd agree with the idea that pivoting had experienced a growing application in WC racing. Also, I don't think the word pivoting is a good one to use because too many people will define that as a very active movement one does to twist the skis around. I think redirect is a good word to use as we talk about racers in the course.

The coaches I know or have spoken with say the focus must be on arc to arc. It is the fundamental technique that all coaches I have been exposed to use for racers. I just haven't run into many (I think only one out of dozens) that teach turning or twisting of the feet or legs to redirect the skis.

So, can we agree that we can watch video and in some turns see the skis redirect? Yes. The why and how are the crux of this issue.
post #220 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post
That makes sense to me. You agree with Bolter that this approach is "engineered from the beginner up"?

It's engineered with an eye on the prize. The prize being the full skills and versatility package the best skiers in the world possess,,, and designing a program to most effectively get students there.




Quote:
It would be very interesting to find out if you agree or why you (BTS, BB, and others) disagree with Bolter's observation that "PMTS movements are derived from elite skiing (WC) and reversed engineered to the beginning level. The first movements learned are the same as the movements of the elite."
I agree with Bolter to an extent. The problem I have with his portrayal is the programs tendency to only focus on a portion of the movements/techniques/skills of the elite, and frown on those they don't focus on. Chuck, every skill you learn is a part of the skill package of the elite, and those skills will serve as a foundation for easy adoption of the specific skills you're looking to acquire.

Be careful in looking for the "fastest way". People are more than happy to sell you a "get rich quick" scheme. But the fact is there really is no secret method that puts high level skiing instantly at your finger tips. It takes time and work, no matter what system one goes with. That student who I told you spontaneously carved; It was a result of the base skills we were working on at the time,,, and yes,,, within a few days of working with me he was arc to arcing and just blowing past most the average Joe skiers on the slope. But even with that, he was a still far from developing all the skills needed to truly be a high level skier by the standards to which I aspire to take my students. It takes practice, it takes work, it takes time. That's not a popular theme to preach, but it's honest.
post #221 of 236
First off, I just want to point out how defensive this thread is becoming so quickly, primarily because people are taking criticisms about a "system" very personal, as if its a reflection of who they are as a person. This is my point, don't associate yourselves so closely to a system, to the point that you become a card carrying born-again believer and that system becomes part of your self identity....

I don't care which system you're talking about...I'm not pointing my finger at any one in particular right now. I've seen this behavior all around. But that is precisely my point about the problem with getting too deeply entrenched in any one program. If you find yourself getting defensive about it, then you are probably too deeply entrenched and need to take a few steps back to get a glimpse of the trees from outside of the forest.

I have tried within the past few days to make observations about two popular systems and I have tried to voice both positive and negatives that i perceive, in an attempt to show an unbiased viewpoint. But still, it fired up the defensiveness of some people. All they read was the negative about their system.

But the question is, why so defensive about a system? its not your gender or race. Its just a system. Why can't you just take a step back, be objective and say to yourselves "ok, I see what you mean, I really love my system, its working for me, I've gotten a lot of good out of it and will continue to do so, but I see that its not completely perfect and I will keep an eye out for biased thinking" ??


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post
It would be very interesting to find out if you agree or why you (BTS, BB, and others) disagree with Bolter's observation that "PMTS movements are derived from elite skiing (WC) and reversed engineered to the beginning level. The first movements learned are the same as the movements of the elite."
I don't disgree with that particular statement from Bolter. HH did in fact attempt to derive his method from WC skiing, and quite effectively, its a handy system for what it does. But I would clarify that statement by saying that the end result is a subset of WC skiing. He intentionally avoids certain skills because in his opinion some of those skills can lead new skiers in particular down a path to bad habits that are hard to break. For example, pivoted turn entries, pop extensions, etc.. I personally don't think he is wrong about that.

But on the other hand, I think he has gone too far by completely villianizing certain skills that are actively and currently used by many WC star athletes including top contenders. Its true that some WC skiers ski closer to his model, so he always uses them as examples. And that is fine. If you want to ski like those particular athletes, then PMTS will help you get there. But its not the only effective way to ski, and even win races.

Unfortunately, the PMTS crowd tends to villianize the verboten skill set. For all mountain skiing, I personally feel that some of those particular skills we are talking about are crucial to all mountain expert skiing. That is my opinion, and I don't plan on changing it. PMTS, by itself, is simply not comprehensive enough to cover the full spectrum of skiing conditions that a true all mountain expert experiences.

Every PMTS role model that is a true all mountain expert, also has loads of other experience and other skills under their belt from many years of skiing prior to the invention of PMTS. The skiers isolated only to PMTS have not skied long enough to be at that level yet. They all believe in their heart that eventually they will ski like Jay or HH. And perhaps someday they will, but I feel that in order to get there they will need to branch outside of PMTS, just as their role models did before PMTS ever existed.

But on the other hand, PMTS does teach you how to carve very effectively and quickly, something that a lot of non-PMTS skiers do not do very well for a very long time. True expert skiing, even all mountain, will have a carving element to it. This is where PMTS shines in my opinion.

Many other people attempt to watch WC skiers and reverse engineer what they are doing there too, HH is not the only one. He did happen to hit on a useful learning tool with the phantom move and a focus on tipping. He has tried to find a way to take a very complex set of movements and turn it into a simple mental model that many people can latch onto and get good results. Its handy indeed and does teach some valuable skills. I would not hesitate to use the phantom move as a teaching method. However, that alone is not a comprehensive training program and it does not cover the full spectrum of skills that are useful for all mountain ripping. His latest book focuses more on base level skills and I happen to think its a great book and for the particular skills it focuses on, awesome. But again, he skips over certain verboten skills which he feels are dangerous for skiers to think about.

Quote:
The key question for me is which approach will get me closer to that goal faster. The answer to this question from Bolter's posts is unequivocally PMTS. Your student carving after 7 days makes me drool. But that may be an exception.
If you tend to primarily ski the groomers and want to be a carve monster, I do think PMTS will get you there faster. If you want to be a true all mountain mad man, personally I think PMTS would also be a great foundation, but at some point you should plan to separate yourself and branch off into vertoben territory. And personally I don't feel that mixing up both PMTS and other programs all along the way will ruin you. If you are too isolated in a single program, that will ruin you.

Quote:
I am going to be the guinea pig. This season I will probably be able to ski about 5-10 days at Mountain High (can also go to Snow Summit or Big Bear) and Mammoth and perhaps a few days in Tahoe. I will continue my self-training based on HH's books and video. If someone here could spend 15 min video my skiing each time for everyone to see my progress or lack of it, we will have a lot of data for a good discussion. I will try to ski my best in whatever situation the cameraman wants me to. All my ski problems, limitations will be displayed. The PMTS experts can point out if the a particular issue is due to my misunderstanding or poor execution of PMTS movements. I think we can also get good input from the other forum regarding learning PMTS movements. I will then try to correct them the next time and we can all see the difficulty or ease I have with learning these movements.
Many people here will gladly provide feedback on your video.

For PMTS feedback I strongly suggest you head over to the PMTS forum and ask HH himself. His MA skills are extraordinarily great and he is usually happy to do it.
post #222 of 236
Another good post BTS, it would be great if you could drop the first four paragraphs. I don't need another parent.
post #223 of 236
Bolter, does that mean that you consider yourself to be getting defensive? Just asking...
post #224 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I don't think I'd agree with the idea that pivoting had experienced a growing application in WC racing.
Bolter, you say you're a race coach,,, so just to appease my curiosity,,, What did YOU observe in regards to the amount of pivoting/redirecting present on the WC over the first several years after the entry of the shaped ski. Did you see it change over those years? If so, in what respect and why? Or do you agree with Max, who says there were none? And what about currently? Any changes going on?

This can help in answering Max's questions about the whys of pivoting/redirection.
post #225 of 236
BTS,
Wow! Thanks.
Chuck
post #226 of 236
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
He intentionally avoids certain skills because in his opinion some of those skills can lead new skiers in particular down a path to bad habits that are hard to break.
Did HH tell you this? I haven't seen that written anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Unfortunately, the PMTS crowd tends to villianize the verboten skill set. For all mountain skiing, I personally feel that some of those particular skills we are talking about are crucial to all mountain expert skiing. That is my opinion, and I don't plan on changing it.
That's fine, and I think its great that you qualified that statement as personal feeling. Typically, you state it as fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
PMTS, by itself, is simply not comprehensive enough to cover the full spectrum of skiing conditions that a true all mountain expert experiences.
The above is just an opinion and everyone is entitled to one. My opinion is that its great for all mountain expert skiing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Every PMTS role model that is a true all mountain expert, also has loads of other experience and other skills under their belt from many years of skiing prior to the invention of PMTS. The skiers isolated only to PMTS have not skied long enough to be at that level yet. They all believe in their heart that eventually they will ski like Jay or HH. And perhaps someday they will, but I feel that in order to get there they will need to branch outside of PMTS, just as their role models did before PMTS ever existed.
The implication here is that the coaches are lying to their students and using movements they don't teach to ski all mountain. BTW, Jay and Diana both say they are much better skiers now that they use solely PMTS movements for all of their skiing and they are a couple of the best all mountain skiers I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I would not hesitate to use the phantom move as a teaching method. However, that alone is not a comprehensive training program and it does not cover the full spectrum of skills that are useful for all mountain ripping.
Of course the phantom move is not comprehensive. Its only one piece of PMTS. That statement makes is sound like you don't understand the breadth of PMTS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
But again, he skips over certain verboten skills which he feels are dangerous for skiers to think about.
He skips over skills generally considered to be active rotary because he doesn't feel they need to be used in expert skiing. Doesn't matter if its carving on groomed runs or skiing a 35 degree pitch with bumps you don't need them from the PMTS point of view.

BTS won't see this but I will pose a question. He often makes posts about PTMS as if he has in depth knowledge of PMTS. So I wonder, has he been to camps or lessons?
post #227 of 236



Have not the points been made yet? I don't understand the need to try to "prove" something or to "convert" people to your way of thinking.

Once ideas have been made and something goes on this long it really makes the reader wonder what the participants motives are.

There is only one way to heaven. My way - certainly seems to be a familiar phrase. Holy wars!


sheesh!
post #228 of 236
BTS,
That's pretty much the impression I get too.
post #229 of 236
are you speaking to me?

I can honestly say that I am not for or against any side and I am not in any kind of war. Chuck has asked for some honest feedback about how he can choose where to go get some ski training. I have done my darndest to present an objective view of both programs he asked about, positives and negatives on both sides. I'm sorry if certain people don't like my opinions or my manner of expressing them, but my purpose is, and always has been, to further ski enlightment....
post #230 of 236
sorry bts, no I was very much not talking to you, sorry. Should have started out by saying how much i liked your most recent post actually.

Mostly talking to Max, just didn't want to quote that long post.
post #231 of 236
Originally Posted by mdf
..and for me, the only way I was able to do that was to (temporarily) eliminate it entirely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Eliminating it entirely means pure arc to arc carving. Is that what you really mean?

That's exactly what I mean. I had twenty years of tail pushing behind me. Those habits were not going to lie down without a fight.

I spent a couple of years where I really focused on arc to arc. I'm still not perfect by any means, but I feel I've gotten control of my turn initiation habits and can safely mix things up a little more.

(One caveat -- moguls never were included in my self-imposed rules.)
post #232 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolter View Post
.

I would like to know how many others have given themselves to the PMTS as I have. I checked it out from top to bottom, out on the hill, on a daily basis, who else here has done that?
This bears repeating- what Bolter has done is what is required to really understand what PMTS can do for your skiing. It's not easy, and for advanced skiers the payoff may seem elusive at first.
Why "mix and match" is frowned upon- add leg steering and you lose that outside ski balance, and kinectic chain of the phantom move. Extend into the turn and you lose much of the ability to tip the inside ski, as well as the opportunity to carve the top of the turn in steep terrain. So 2 of the most popular "TTS additions" (sorry, couldn't think of a better way to say it) to PMTS inhibit 2 of the PMTS fundamentals- outside ski balance and inside ski tipping. That is not to say that PMTS skiers (sorry-a label...) don't ever do those things, but it's NOT what we practice.

ChuckT, I ski at Baldy and Mammoth. Let me know when you go skiing and if I'm there I will be happy to video you, as long as you are aware that while it may be helpful to you, it's not likely to prove anything here.
post #233 of 236
I must be a very dumb or very dim skier -- I still don't get what the big deal of this debate is.

Rotary, steering, pivoting: phooey.

Ever since shaped skis came out I knew that I shouldn't twist my feet in order to turn. Whether I accomplished this goal from the beginning is a topic for another endless debate.

What I do know is that shaped skis (and using them "properly") have enabled me to ski better than I ever did before. After 35 years of skiing, I continue to improve. I am a better skier than I was 15 years ago, and I am a better skier than I was a year ago. With two bad knees and a bad back I ski bumps, chutes, powder, groomers, you name it. I have taken a variety of lessons over the years, and have attended 5 ESA's.

I am not a fantastic skier, but I am a good skier. Most importantly, I enjoy skiing more than most activities on the planet. I am offended that according to some people, I am termed a loser or that "I don't get it" or that "I couldn't buy a turn" because of the the instructors that I listen to or because of the camps that I attend.

In all of the ESA's that I have attended, I do not recall any of the instructors mentioning rotary skills much less teaching them.

My wife attended two of Lito's camps before attending ESA's and felt that the instruction from one was compatible with the other. One of her ESA coaches is PMTS qualified, and Marcia never felt that she was learning anything other than "skiing".

ChuckT: there are good instructors and there are bad instructors (and, in my experience, there are some very talented instructors)(By the way, the coaches that I have met in the last 3 years have all been teaching skiing for a long time. Most claim to follow no particular ski instruction method, but have found what works for them best in teaching, and adapt their teaching technique according to the needs of the students they are teaching. To claim that a one-size-fits-all method is the way to go is totally laughable to me. Also to think that beginners never get good instructors is perhaps mostly, but not always true -- at dinner with a couple of demo team members, they remarked that some of their most rewarding times as coaches is when they teach classes with never-ever-skiers. I saw the look in their eyes , and I believe it. And I've been coached by them, and can vouch for their skill as skiers and teachers). In the opinion of this consumer, there is no good or bad "system". There are only bad instructors, and more importantly, bad connections between teacher and student. My advice to you, Chuck, is to attend a camp, any camp -- find an instructor that you trust and stick with him/her. And then ski a lot; do drills if you must (I am sure that they are a necessary evil in some weird way)(I hate them), but ski.

Oh, in case anybody missed it, this is my answer to the rotary debate:
PHOOEY.
post #234 of 236
bbinder that is the post of the month.

the thread should be locked here with that final word.


PHOOEY.
post #235 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
bbinder that is the post of the month.

the thread should be locked here with that final word.


PHOOEY.
Yep.

One last word...

Tails follow the tips.
post #236 of 236
Indeed.
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