First off, I just want to point out how defensive this thread is becoming so quickly, primarily because people are taking criticisms about a "system" very personal, as if its a reflection of who they are as a person. This is my point, don't associate yourselves so closely to a system, to the point that you become a card carrying born-again believer and that system becomes part of your self identity....
I don't care which system you're talking about...I'm not pointing my finger at any one in particular right now. I've seen this behavior all around. But that is precisely my point about the problem with getting too deeply entrenched in any one program. If you find yourself getting defensive about it, then you are probably too deeply entrenched and need to take a few steps back to get a glimpse of the trees from outside of the forest.
I have tried within the past few days to make observations about two popular systems and I have tried to voice both positive and negatives that i perceive, in an attempt to show an unbiased viewpoint. But still, it fired up the defensiveness of some people. All they read was the negative about their system.
But the question is, why so defensive about a system? its not your gender or race. Its just a system. Why can't you just take a step back, be objective and say to yourselves "ok, I see what you mean, I really love my system, its working for me, I've gotten a lot of good out of it and will continue to do so, but I see that its not completely perfect and I will keep an eye out for biased thinking" ??
Originally Posted by ChuckT
It would be very interesting to find out if you agree or why you (BTS, BB, and others) disagree with Bolter's observation that "PMTS movements are derived from elite skiing (WC) and reversed engineered to the beginning level. The first movements learned are the same as the movements of the elite."
I don't disgree with that particular statement from Bolter. HH did in fact attempt to derive his method from WC skiing, and quite effectively, its a handy system for what it does. But I would clarify that statement by saying that the end result is a subset
of WC skiing. He intentionally avoids certain skills because in his opinion some of those skills can lead new skiers in particular down a path to bad habits that are hard to break. For example, pivoted turn entries, pop extensions, etc.. I personally don't think he is wrong about that.
But on the other hand, I think he has gone too far by completely villianizing certain skills that are actively and currently used by many WC star athletes including top contenders. Its true that some
WC skiers ski closer to his model, so he always uses them as examples. And that is fine. If you want to ski like those particular athletes, then PMTS will help you get there. But its not the only effective way to ski, and even win races.
Unfortunately, the PMTS crowd tends to villianize the verboten skill set. For all mountain skiing, I personally feel that some of those particular skills we are talking about are crucial to all mountain expert skiing. That is my opinion, and I don't plan on changing it. PMTS, by itself, is simply not comprehensive enough to cover the full spectrum of skiing conditions that a true all mountain expert experiences.
Every PMTS role model that is a true all mountain expert, also has loads of other experience and other skills under their belt from many years of skiing prior to the invention of PMTS. The skiers isolated only to PMTS have not skied long enough to be at that level yet. They all believe in their heart that eventually they will ski like Jay or HH. And perhaps someday they will, but I feel that in order to get there they will need to branch outside of PMTS, just as their role models did before PMTS ever existed.
But on the other hand, PMTS does teach you how to carve very effectively and quickly, something that a lot of non-PMTS skiers do not do very well for a very long time. True expert skiing, even all mountain, will have a carving element to it. This is where PMTS shines in my opinion.
Many other people attempt to watch WC skiers and reverse engineer what they are doing there too, HH is not the only one. He did happen to hit on a useful learning tool with the phantom move and a focus on tipping. He has tried to find a way to take a very complex set of movements and turn it into a simple mental model that many people can latch onto and get good results. Its handy indeed and does teach some valuable skills. I would not hesitate to use the phantom move as a teaching method. However, that alone is not a comprehensive training program and it does not cover the full spectrum of skills that are useful for all mountain ripping. His latest book focuses more on base level skills and I happen to think its a great book and for the particular skills it focuses on, awesome. But again, he skips over certain verboten skills which he feels are dangerous for skiers to think about.
|The key question for me is which approach will get me closer to that goal faster. The answer to this question from Bolter's posts is unequivocally PMTS. Your student carving after 7 days makes me drool. But that may be an exception.
If you tend to primarily ski the groomers and want to be a carve monster, I do think PMTS will get you there faster. If you want to be a true all mountain mad man, personally I think PMTS would also be a great foundation, but at some point you should plan to separate yourself and branch off into vertoben territory. And personally I don't feel that mixing up both PMTS and other programs all along the way will ruin you. If you are too isolated in a single program, that will ruin you.
|I am going to be the guinea pig. This season I will probably be able to ski about 5-10 days at Mountain High (can also go to Snow Summit or Big Bear) and Mammoth and perhaps a few days in Tahoe. I will continue my self-training based on HH's books and video. If someone here could spend 15 min video my skiing each time for everyone to see my progress or lack of it, we will have a lot of data for a good discussion. I will try to ski my best in whatever situation the cameraman wants me to. All my ski problems, limitations will be displayed. The PMTS experts can point out if the a particular issue is due to my misunderstanding or poor execution of PMTS movements. I think we can also get good input from the other forum regarding learning PMTS movements. I will then try to correct them the next time and we can all see the difficulty or ease I have with learning these movements.
Many people here will gladly provide feedback on your video.
For PMTS feedback I strongly suggest you head over to the PMTS forum and ask HH himself. His MA skills are extraordinarily great and he is usually happy to do it.