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# Learning rotary or not - A Student's Questions - Page 6

As the body crosses over the skis, do the skis go flat when the CM is between the feet or inside? Do they go flat at "neutral"?

I think it is common to believe that frame 12 would be considered "neutral" as it is on the fall-line between the two turns, and here, the CM is between the feet. Yet the skis are not flat.

If we need the skis to be flat at neutral then we'd be looking at frame 13 as an example. But here, the CM is not between the feet!

So is the real problem in the definition of "neutral": skis flat and CM between feet?

See you all in a week,
I'm out til Sunday night....

Cheers!

### Gear mentioned in this thread:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Bolter, Doesn't the location of the CM when skis are flat to the show depend on the slope of the pitch? When there is no slope, clearly, you are correct, but at some angle, the body will be inside the turn with flat skis.

YES! Thanks, this was my point earlier, doesn't the use (degree or severity and degree) of edging, rotation (or countering, whatever you want to call it) all depend on the conditions? Is turning the body acrosss the fall line towards the next turn to initiate the shift of mass and to get the feet/legs/hips to move in the intended direction incorrect? (ADDED) The amount of tipping/edging and rotation is related to the conditions.

I don't know all the technical terms so please help a bro' here?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bolter Same old point . . . I ask everyone Torque applied to the skis before engagement to start a turn is counterproductive in arcing. How do we minimize it, what cancels out the unwanted torque of edging/tipping (with the inherent leg rotation movements)? My answer is counteraction. I see in the illustrations counter to develop after the skis begin to change direction, why? Doesn't this leave the torque unchecked? Counter after direction change is too late to avoid unwanted torque being applied to the skis. IMO, "Counter" before deflection is effective use of rotary, after deflection is not.
The answer is, Bolter, that there is no torgue to be checked. If there was, Ted's and Benni's skis would be auto pivoting on them, because they're doing nothing in the way of early counter to combat those forces you suggest exist. Obviously, as evidenced by the clean arc to arc these guys are producing while square, they're not experiencing those twisting forces. I don't either when I ski.

This is the same topic I was trying to get into with Max a couple days ago before he,,, oh well,,, I knew it would come up again. Bolter, do you feel torque on your skis when you go through a transition if you don't early counter?
Bolter 12-14?
IF 12 = old turn, 13 = transition, 14 = new turn
AND this is not the first turn
THEN I'd say that momentum keeps the body travelling down the hill.

(sorry, spent today explain SQL to users)
Quote:
 Originally Posted by abertsch I believe that Bolter is entirely correct. The static skier with flat skis and COM extending perpendicular above the slope is not statically balanced. If he were to keep skiing straight he would either need to fall over, or let his weight fall on to his new inside ski (which, being flat, is going to start to slide sideways...). The skier is not in a static position though. The skier is both moving forward and transitioning from one turn to the next. In the transition the skier is not holding the hips in that position, but allowing them to move to the inside of the ski. At this point in the transition I don't think the skier is actively pushing his COM in either direction, but allowing gravity and the forces of the old turn together to move the COM across the skis and in to the new turn. As the new turn develops the forces of the new turn will keep the skier from falling.

This description is good, but it does not represent what Bolter is advocating you do. He wants you counteracting and counterbalancing uphill in the transition,,, PMTS speak for angulating. He says you need to do that to negate the twisting forces acting on your skis during a transition. Do you see Benni or Ted doing that? Do you see ANY pivot in their turns?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Specifically, what would be required would be anglulation uphill.
:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat THEN I'd say that momentum keeps the body travelling down the hill.
Yep, momentum plays a big role in this.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bolter :
Obvioulsy, we've been down this road before. I know the pitch that's coming before the guy on the mound even begins his windup
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick The answer is, Bolter, that there is no torgue to be checked. If there was, Ted's and Benni's skis would be auto pivoting on them, because they're doing nothing in the way of early counter to combat those forces you suggest exist. Obviously, as evidenced by the clean arc to arc these guys are producing while square, they're not experiencing those twisting forces. I don't either when I ski. This is the same topic I was trying to get into with Max a couple days ago before he,,, oh well,,, I knew it would come up again. Bolter, do you feel torque on your skis when you go through a transition if you don't early counter?
So you see no point to counteract a torque that does not exist because you can not feel it? IMO the torque from leg rotation is real regardless of feelings. The OP wants to learn a2a. When he tips his feet/skis the femurs rotate this causes torque to be transferred to the skis and if he is anticipated even more torque results. Not good for learning a2a

Bennie will tip to turn, Bennie may or may not counteract early, Bennie may or may not a2a.

In this learning context Bennie has little to do with the OP's journey to a2a. The OP will need to work on many things that Bennie will show as intuitive and given.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bolter Aren't these as "viewed from above" from a point of observation that moves with the skier.
Yes! But, not from a reference point perpendicular to the slope. I would say the reference from above is the "gravity" line.

See the blue bar to the right of the montage showing the pitch of the slope and the angle of the skis relative to the slope. Straight down in this blue side bar would be gravity and I believe that is the same frame of reference used in the montage.

Chris

[Edit: Ah, never mind. Somehow I just refreshed and got updated with a bunch of posts I didn't have a few minutes ago. Sorry for the redundancy]
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat Bolter 12-14? IF 12 = old turn, 13 = transition, 14 = new turn AND this is not the first turn THEN I'd say that momentum keeps the body travelling down the hill. (sorry, spent today explain SQL to users)
This sounds like a vote for using momentum, the best move to harness this is flex to release- if you want to be effecient. I do this, do you it when you ski?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bolter This sounds like a vote for using momentum, the best move to harness this is flex to release- if you want to be effecient. I do this, do you it when you ski?
"Best?" Not sure about that. But certainly a good and efficient move for at least some (and perhaps many) situations on snow.

I can't speak for the Fox's crossunder, but yes, I do it when I want to. But not all the time.
I'm not an efficient skier, but I am a lazy one (and not a very good one as many, including me, will tell you) - if you've got momentum, why do you need to perform any "release" movement?
IF my body has momentum down the hill
AND my feet are attached to my body (ok, via my legs)
THEN as my body moves down the hill, my skis will go from being on one set of edges, through flat, to being on the other set of edges

When I was learning to ski in Europe, I was taught this, but with a pop in the middle - I stood up for the transition. Then I went through a static phase where I skiied very rigidly. Now I try to bend at the waist a bit more, and keep my upper body quieter as it moves. So, my legs may be extended coming out of one turn, but rather than standing up over the transition, I try to keep my body at a similar height above the snow, so my legs flex as I move through the transition.
On a good day it almost looks like I have a clue what I'm doing.

If what I've described above is what you call flexing to release, then yes, I do it sometimes.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ssh "Best?" Not sure about that. But certainly a good and efficient move for at least some (and perhaps many) situations on snow. I can't speak for the Fox's crossunder, but yes, I do it when I want to. But not all the time.
Is crossunder the same as flex to release?

Efficient use of momentum (IMO) to learn linked a2a is flex to release, bending movements.

-Bending makes tipping easier
-Bending the legs increases tipping range
-Bending allow for quick edge changes
-Bending increases terrain absorbing ability
-Bending keeps you closer to the snow
-Bending, the inside leg once skis are engaged draws the hip to the snow
-Bending, the inside leg allows higher tipping and lengthening of the outside leg
-Bending allows foot pull back
-Bending allows you to make tighter arcs, shorter turns and therefore gives skiers more control
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat If what I've described above is what you call flexing to release, then yes, I do it sometimes.
Probably not as based on your word choice/description. Video would show us the answer. This is not some F***ing challange, OK?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bolter The OP wants to learn a2a. When he tips his feet/skis the femurs rotate this causes torque to be transferred to the skis and if he is anticipated even more torque results. Not good for learning a2a Bennie will tip to turn, Bennie may or may not counteract early, Bennie may or may not a2a. In this learning context Bennie has little to do with the OP's journey to a2a. The OP will need to work on many things that Bennie will show as intuitive and given.
First, tipping does not necessarily produce a torque that transfers to the feet/skis. It can,,, if you don't allow the joints free reign to articulate as they need to assume the various positions needed to edge and balance.

Co-contraction you guys call it, don't you? Muscular utilization that causes tipping to generate twisting forces on the skis. You say you can even pivot the skis in the length of a ski doing this, right? Yikes, that sounds very intentional and active. But I diverge,,, stay on topic, Rick.

I don't feel torque on my skis in my transitions because they don't exist. If they did, I would know, and the quality of my arc to arc initiations would suffer because of them. I do nothing to combat those forces because they are not there, and my transitions into arc to arc are fine.

The reason those forces are not present in my skiing is because I relax my joints and allow my body to move into the positions needed to carve a turn without creating these rotary forces you're talking about. This is what I call "passive rotary" relaxing and allowing my joints to articulate as they need to to assume new positions. This is the same thing Benni and Ted are doing in the montages. It's why they're not experiencing these mystery rotary forces you're speaking of either, and why their arc to arc turn entries are so clean. Because they are simply allowing them to be.

Now, where I agree with you. Yep, the anticipated position will create potential rotary forces that will want to act on the skier when the skis are released. It's why it's so helpful to use some anticipation when a pivot is desired, and why a more square position is better for arc to arc. And also why systems that teach heavy counter through the turn in the early learning phases do also have to teach early counter the other way to eliminate those over countered states, and remove the pivoting tendencies they introduce.

And also I agree that for the learning skier, who's trying to do arc to arc transitions at slow speeds, on flat hills, and on mega sidecut skis,,, early angulation does provide the early outside ski balance they need, in an environment where the momentum and balance forces provided by speed are lacking. So this is a legitimate the reason it is helpful for new skiers to use some angulation at the start of their turns. It's not a solution for mystery rotary forces that only exist if they are self created. Get rid of the self creating stuff,,, the root cause. Use early angulation for balance.
Sorry, I don't think I have any suitable video (of me skiing or F***ing )

How would you describe "flex to release" using simple words that can't be mis-interpreted?
Remember the OP wants to learn a2a so here are the extension worries that slow progress and may stop it dead in the water.

There are more but here are some . . .
-Extending hurts the ability to tip the skis
-Extending delays the entry to the next turn
-Extending eliminates the legs from making quick movements
-Extending or pushing against the snow puts skiers out of balance
-Extending interrupts movement to the next turn or downhill
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat Sorry, I don't think I have any suitable video (of me skiing or F***ing ) How would you describe "flex to release" using simple words that can't be mis-interpreted?
Flex the downhill leg this lets momentum create transition. Can't be misinterpreted, that is a tall order WTFH. We will see.

IF THE SKIS ARE ON EDGE, when you begin to flex.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Co-contraction you guys call it, don't you? .
Let me tell you something if you continue this sort of BS, I will put you on ignore on your next post. In fact, Edit that out or I will not respond and I will ignore you NOW!. I'm pissed at that and I am waiting.

By you turning this into a "we versus they" the thread will suck!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat Sorry, I don't think I have any suitable video (of me skiing or F***ing )
:
Please? Suitable or not I want to see both.
Good bye Rick.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Obviously, as evidenced by the clean arc to arc these guys are producing while square, they're not experiencing those twisting forces. I don't either when I ski.
Without seeing a sample of your skiing we can't know why you don't experience those forces. Could be because you are mainly thinking of what happens in a leisurely GS arc where they aren't as noticeable. Go crank a dozen high energy SL turns down a moderate to steep slope and you should notice them.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick This is the same topic I was trying to get into with Max a couple days ago before he,,, oh well,,, I knew it would come up again.
Over there I didn't think we were talking about GS arc to arc skiing. BTW, when you have time can you take a look at this post.
Hello, it's me, the OP, again. I just posted a request for MA

I don't know if the clip is clear enough for MA, but I think I will be able to say what I was consciously doing and hope that you could point out movements (either deliberate or not) that are not good for getting to arc to arc skiing. I also made the same request on the PMTS forum.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Co-contraction you guys call it, don't you? Muscular utilization that causes tipping to generate twisting forces on the skis.
Rick, who is 'you guys'. And where did you get that description. I've never heard it defined that way.
Bolter, if you can still read this, sorry I didn't respond sooner,,, I was away. By "you guys", I was of course referring to the PMTS teaching system, and those who follow it. I was under the impression you were a strong believer in the system, and the content of what you were saying was very consistent with what I've heard/read of the theories regarding this particular technical topic. I meant no disrespect, and my including you in that group who believe in that particular system of learning carried no derogatory intent. I respect anyone who has a passion to learn, regardless of the learning vehicle. That I occasionally will question particular technical view points of a system does not equate to my thinking that system carries no valu. The same holds true of my views on the PMTS system. I believe it helps many people, and I give a big thumbs up to those people for the commitment and progress they've made.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bolter : Please? Suitable or not I want to see both.

They haven't invented a camera to capture slow enough images for one, and fast enough for the other. I'll let you decide which is which!

### Chuck's MA

Ahh--the poor forgotten OP! Hi Chuck. On behalf of everyone here, let me apologize for the drift of this thread. (Although there are some excellent new cans of worms being opened, or reopened, here. One comment on recent discussions that is relevant to your original "rotary or not rotary" question: Hey all you anti-teaching-rotary guys--if rotary is such an unimportant skill that you don't think should be bothered with, why are you obsessing over it so much here? This thread is living proof of why it is so important that the rotary skill be addressed and kept in the forefront of any teaching progression. Rotary movements, and the skillful management thereof, are clearly a big deal!) 'Nuff said on that.

---

Regarding your video clip, Chuck: You are clearly not a beginning skier, and not as far from making strong, arc-to-arc carved turns as many of us might have imagined. (I assume that you are the one skiing fastest, carving through the crowd...man, I hope it's not that crowded everywhere you ski!) You have developed the ability to balance on one foot and let the edge of your ski carve. Your practice of the one-footed exercises Lito focuses on have done you some good!

Now, it's time to remember one of my favorite adages: Every exercise has something wrong with it--otherwise it would be "skiing." While Lito is absolutely right that a critical skill for good skiing is the ability to balance on one foot, and he has some great exercises for improving your one-footed balance, take a look now at the original video of Bolter, whom you said you wanted to learn to emulate. Unlike you, he does not make that complete, 100% weight transfer and lift the old downhill ski off the snow to initiate his turns. Lito has helped you develop some important skills. Now it's time to stop doing the exercises and set those skills free! (That's not to say that going back to those exercises periodically won't continue to pay dividends. But those exercises are obviously not what Bolter is doing in that video clip.)

In your case, that "lift" move is causing exactly the problems I described in my earlier post--that "early weight transfer" is actually blocking your "cross-over" move into the new turn, at least indirectly. As you have already said, "transition is the key," and your focus on the active 100% weight transfer before starting your new turn is what's preventing your transitions from looking like Bolter's.

It may feel to you like it's working, too. Transferring weight to your uphill leg and lifting that downhill ski helps move you across your skis and into the new turn. The problem is that you need to make that weight transfer to cause the crossover in the first place. The reason you need it is that you finish the old turn still way to the inside. In a vicious cycle, you may actually be unconsciously creating the need for the weight transfer by finishing inside; the weight transfer ("lift") corrects the problem, and everything seems hunky-dory.

Regardless, the solution will involve learning to keep that downhill ski on the snow through the transition. But just doing that--not "lifting"--probably won't work, because it isn't the problem itself. The problem is finishing inside. Solve that problem, and you won't need to make that early, active weight transfer, and you'll be on your way to a breakthrough.

Next time you're on the snow, try making turns that start on the downhill ski, delaying the weight transfer as long as you can. If you want a new exercise, try "White Pass Turns," which begin with the uphill/outside ski lifted off the snow all the way to the fall line (straight downhill), before finally transferring to balance on the outside ski through the end of the turn (and the beginning of the next turn). You'll find this exercise difficult at first, I suspect, until you learn to finish each turn in "neutral" instead of inside, uphill from your skis. Look at my diagrams (particularly the Dynamic Parallel diagram)--as well as Bolter's video. Note that the crossover movements begin way back in the previous turn, and that by frame 12, the skier is balanced directly over his skis, in the middle of the crossover. That's the frame where you're still uphill from your skis, inside the old turn, needing to do something (transfer weight) to create the force that starts your crossover.

Other good exercises for you:
• traverse on the downhill ski (lifting the uphill ski), then initiate your new turn without putting the uphill ski down on the snow. Expect to need some time with this one too! Then try it without touching your uphill pole, either....
• Ski on one ski only--if you really want to commit, park a ski at the bottom of the lift and ski back to it, then change skis.
• Practice "railroad tracks" (basically, what you were doing in your video clip) keeping both skis on the snow at all times. Tip your skis smoothly out of the turn, through "flat," and onto their new edges for the new turn, in a continuous, unbroken movement. Seek to feel the pressure flow smoothly from foot to foot, with full commitment to the outside ski coming only after the turn starts. Note that any "active weight transfer" will create an abrupt glitch in your transitions.
All of these drills are to help develop the smooth, passive weight transfer I described earlier, where everything flows smoothly and effortlessly from turn to turn. It will be very obvious when you have it--completely different from the large effort you've been making to force the transition. It will be the transition you covet, and the breakthrough you seek!

---

Now, as you do these things--especially the railroad tracks with both skis on the snow--focus on the tipping movements through the transtion. Make sure you're tipping both skis, not just the new outside ski. There must be a moment when both skis are flat on the snow. That moment is what many other posters have been discussing here recently--it's where it's very easy to twist your skis off line, or to push their tails out to get them on edge. You want to make sure they track true through this "flat" moment, and that you roll them to their new edges with no pushing or twisting sideways. When you get to this point, come back and revisit this thread, and I think it will make even more sense!

Best regards,
Bob
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bolter Flex the downhill leg this lets momentum create transition. Can't be misinterpreted, that is a tall order WTFH. We will see. IF THE SKIS ARE ON EDGE, when you begin to flex.
OK, that vaguely sounds like what I was badly describing earlier.

Let's exaggerate it for a minute. Imagine I am carving fast on a steep slope, so my inside leg is bent a lot, and the outside leg is fairly straight in any turn.
To go from one turn to the next, if I don't want to stand up during the transition, then I need to bend the old outside leg to stay low. It also means it's bent as it needs to be as the inside ski in the new turn.

Is that closer to what you're talking about?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bolter Is crossunder the same as flex to release? Efficient use of momentum (IMO) to learn linked a2a is flex to release, bending movements. -Bending makes tipping easier -Bending the legs increases tipping range -Bending allow for quick edge changes -Bending increases terrain absorbing ability -Bending keeps you closer to the snow -Bending, the inside leg once skis are engaged draws the hip to the snow -Bending, the inside leg allows higher tipping and lengthening of the outside leg -Bending allows foot pull back -Bending allows you to make tighter arcs, shorter turns and therefore gives skiers more control -Extending hurts the ability to tip the skis -Extending delays the entry to the next turn -Extending eliminates the legs from making quick movements -Extending or pushing against the snow puts skiers out of balance -Extending interrupts movement to the next turn or downhill
Bolter,
Could we also say flexing where you say bending?
I love this list, & I'm gonna steal it.

I don't think that crossunder is necessarily flex to release.

JF
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