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Bolter MA Request - Page 4

post #91 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Same tail tossing as Bolter,,,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Really, the same? Sorry, but I gotta disagree with that. I've watched both frame by frame and they are clearly different. One looks quite active while the other looks passive. Heck, even the outcomes don't look the same.
Max, if you'd read the rest of the sentence you quoted:
Quote:
just via a less efficient movement pattern,,, and with less fine control of the result.
you'd see that I went on to say the same things you just did in your attempted argument.

Bolter IS displaying a more refined execution of the tail toss transition. What is the same is that it exists at all. Both are in contrast to a non redirected transition, earlier and more subtle engagement, smaller skid angle, and more consistent pressure through the entire turn. Max, please, if you're going to argue with me, at least say something different from what I am.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Developing good non-carving skills requires not only improving the method by which you toss your tails (pivot),,, it also involves learning how to get rid of the tail toss completely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max
I suppose if your progression starts with an emphasis on rotary skills..
It behooves anyone who (at any point when skiing) does something other than pure carving, to learn how to do non carving well,,, and in all the turn shapes and speeds it makes available. Non carving offers so many more options in speed and turn shape than carving does. In the faddish focus on carving, non carving skills have gotten an undeserved bad rap. A classic throwing out the baby with the bath water situation.
post #92 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
It behooves anyone who (at any point when skiing) does something other than pure carving, to learn how to do non carving well,,, and in all the turn shapes and speeds it makes available. Non carving offers so many more options in speed and turn shape than carving does. In the faddish focus on carving, non carving skills have gotten an undeserved bad rap. A classic throwing out the baby with the bath water situation.
post #93 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
What is the same is that it exists at all.
The only thing that is the same is that they are both on skis that are on snow. The movements are so completely different that to suggest any similarity is either an intentional misdirection or a complete misunderstanding of what Bolter is doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
It behooves anyone who (at any point when skiing) does something other than pure carving, to learn how to do non carving well,,, and in all the turn shapes and speeds it makes available. Non carving offers so many more options in speed and turn shape than carving does. In the faddish focus on carving, non carving skills have gotten an undeserved bad rap. A classic throwing out the baby with the bath water situation.
OK, so you are stating the obvious. Perhaps you aren't aware that you can teach skiers to make very nice non-edge locked turns with carving movements?
post #94 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Max, if you'd read the rest of the sentence you quoted:

you'd see that I went on to say the same things you just did in your attempted argument.

Bolter IS displaying a more refined execution of the tail toss transition. What is the same is that it exists at all. Both are in contrast to a non redirected transition, earlier and more subtle engagement, smaller skid angle, and more consistent pressure through the entire turn. Max, please, if you're going to argue with me, at least say something different from what I am.






It behooves anyone who (at any point when skiing) does something other than pure carving, to learn how to do non carving well,,, and in all the turn shapes and speeds it makes available. Non carving offers so many more options in speed and turn shape than carving does. In the faddish focus on carving, non carving skills have gotten an undeserved bad rap. A classic throwing out the baby with the bath water situation.

You make it sound like people today just hop on a pair of skis for the first time and go directly to carving. Although changes in equipment and technique are bringing us closer to that goal, the majority of us still have to learn to crawl before we can walk, and have the opportunity to pick up plenty of bad habits along the way. Defensive movements such as pivoting, skidding, steering and the almighty wedge are all deeply ingrained in our thought process long before carving becomes second nature, and most of us will resort to our security blanket in a time of crisis. In reality though, carving movements are still the basis for all upper level skiing, whether it be powder, crud , steeps or bumps. Although pure carves are rarely consistently achieved in difficult conditions such as steeps, ice, bumps etc, the movements should still be the same. I seldom find in everyday skiing that I have to resort back to the defensive movements that good skiers strive to leave behind, and when I do, it's like waving the white flag, it's because of my own limitations as a skier, not because of the limitations of the system.
post #95 of 114
Pivotting is a defensive movement? Where oh where does this come from?

Pivotting is something that all skiers have, whether or not they allow their vocabulary to embrace that fact.
post #96 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
It behooves anyone who (at any point when skiing) does something other than pure carving, to learn how to do non carving well,,, and in all the turn shapes and speeds it makes available. Non carving offers so many more options in speed and turn shape than carving does. In the faddish focus on carving, non carving skills have gotten an undeserved bad rap. A classic throwing out the baby with the bath water situation.


If we can ever overcome the technical and non-technical challenges that we have had and get the podcast interview with Stu Campbell posted, you'll hear a very similar comment from him. He believes that, with the changes in equipment, that it is the ability to manage rotary (the twisting of one part of the body relative to another) that is being lost and has become the more skillful set of movements.

I am hopeful that you'll all be able to hear the complete podcast shortly. Perhaps even by next week. Here's hoping!
post #97 of 114
this thread keeps popping up and i was wondering what all the fuss was.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

It behooves anyone who (at any point when skiing) does something other than pure carving, to learn how to do non carving well,,, and in all the turn shapes and speeds it makes available. Non carving offers so many more options in speed and turn shape than carving does. In the faddish focus on carving, non carving skills have gotten an undeserved bad rap. A classic throwing out the baby with the bath water situation.
it's really simple. either you make round turns or not. whether they are completely carved or not is really irrelevant. the movements are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac View Post
the majority of us still have to learn to crawl before we can walk, and have the opportunity to pick up plenty of bad habits along the way. Defensive movements such as pivoting, skidding, steering and the almighty wedge are all deeply ingrained in our thought process long before carving becomes second nature, and most of us will resort to our security blanket in a time of crisis.
well here it is. the defensive movements are ingrained early because of an improper focus on those movements. skiers are taught that twisting their skis is how they should turn and they are then stuck Z turning forever. The bad habits that prevent expert skiing

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

Stu Campbell posted, you'll hear a very similar comment from him. He believes that, with the changes in equipment, that it is the ability to manage rotary (the twisting of one part of the body relative to another) that is being lost and has become the more skillful set of movements.
DUH! and the problem of "managing" rotary has been created by teaching it!!!! a convenient circle....let me teach you rotary movements and get you skiing so you can ingrain them in your skiing and then we'll spend the next 10 years learning how to manage those movements!

I also dont think that this could be an accurate rep of his take on the effects of new gear on skiing. he's to smart for that. i'll await the podcast


i notice back in this thread that their was a controversy regarding seeing skiing. i was just wondering how it is bad to ask to see someone's skiing. if all of you guys are instructors don't you have to show your skiers how to do the moves on snow? so why the big deal of posting some photos to show your skiing and the moves you are talking about.

i'd say that at least in this ilttle group on this litle thread its pretty clear who you would take the lessons from. the guy bolter who can clearly ski and simply explain what hes doing
post #98 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Pivotting is a defensive movement? Where oh where does this come from?

Pivotting is something that all skiers have, whether or not they allow their vocabulary to embrace that fact.
Exactly my point. Everyone has steering and pivoting well built into their skiing movements at an early stage, it's a means of manuvering a developing skier has available to them at the start. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it doesn't become the soul focus of higher level skiing, as long as it doesn't become such a crutch that it comes back to haunt you down the road, ala the old training wheels affect on a bike. They work well at the start, but sooner or later you're going to have to leave them behind.
post #99 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by s0nyskiwer_(jib) View Post

DUH! and the problem of "managing" rotary has been created by teaching it!!!! a convenient circle....let me teach you rotary movements and get you skiing so you can ingrain them in your skiing and then we'll spend the next 10 years learning how to manage those movements! .................

well here it is. the defensive movements are ingrained early because of an improper focus on those movements. skiers are taught that twisting their skis is how they should turn and they are then stuck Z turning forever. The bad habits that prevent expert skiing

This sounds very much like carving good,,, non carving bad. As though if good non carving skills exist, they will smother the ability to carve until those skills are eradicated.

Where does this thinking come from? No skills are bad skills. Each skill learned just expands the ability to perform, and the options by which the sport can be enjoyed. Non carving does not mean Z turns. Poorly skilled non carving skills equate to default Z turns. Expanding the non carving skill base allows a skier to move away from Z turns, when they want.

Carving is good,,, carving is fun,,, in fact arc to arc carving is the edging technique I generally use when I ski. But people don't always want to rip down runs at the speeds riding clean edges create, or deal with the G forces produced by speed controlling big angle carving. Sometimes they just want to tone it down, and ski relaxed. They should not be looked down upon for that, and they should not be misled into thinking learning to non carve well will somehow ruin their ability to carve. It only enhances it.

Honestly,,, the problem on the slopes is not of people trying to learn to carve after learning to steer well. The real problem I see is the neophyte carving skier who hasn't developed the base skills needed to handle the speeds carving thrust them into. They're unguided missiles, putting themselves, and those around them in peril. Bob Peters was touching on this earlier in the thread when he asked Bolter how he would quickly adjust his line. Many of these rush to carve skiers don't have the ability to do it. Fun, wow,,, just don't get in their way, cause they can't change course.
post #100 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac View Post
Exactly my point. Everyone has steering and pivoting well built into their skiing movements at an early stage
Mac, that's just the problem,,, they don't. They have inefficient pivoting, widetrack sliding, edge jamming, and up unweighting built in. Look around, it's everywhere. There's so much more to good edge control skills then just that, or tipping and riding.
post #101 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac View Post
Exactly my point. Everyone has steering and pivoting well built into their skiing movements at an early stage, it's a means of manuvering a developing skier has available to them at the start. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it doesn't become the soul focus of higher level skiing, as long as it doesn't become such a crutch that it comes back to haunt you down the road, ala the old training wheels affect on a bike. They work well at the start, but sooner or later you're going to have to leave them behind.
Agreed, except for the leaving them behind part. It is the gross rotary movements (shoulders) that generally need to be left behind. Sometimes, like standing on a steep icy pitch with little room to maneuver, a strong up move with full body twist will mean the difference between getting down and tumbling down. Look at Bolter's take-off in the first or second vid - he pivots his left ski around his right leg and even throws a little shoulder in there for good measure. Granted it is a take off move, but still used to get started. Many first-timers wind up and throw their shoulders to get started. Bolter is making a smooth controlled movement to begin his chosen course. In the drills video, he pivots around the ski pole. ...just enough to initiate the movement. Once initiated, gravity takes over from there. He is not steering his skis with leg or foot rotation, but he could if he wanted to add fine tuning. He is choosing to add fine tuning through body position. Either works - nice to have options.

He also isn't using rotary steering (feet/legs) as an active component in his short radius turns either, again body position and physics is adding the "divergence" at the back end of the ski. Call it whatever- just not clean a2a.

Functional steering and rotary is very subtle. An analogy is the functional tension I use on my steering wheel when going through the car wash. A slightly loaded wheel steers the outside of my rims away from the outside track bar which will scratch my wheels. Heavy loading and I could force the tire to grab and jump the inside track (why the sign says "HANDS OFF THE WHEEL!").

...Ignore proclamations when you know what you want to accomplish.


edit: sorry, just realized it was the short-wing vid where the pivot/shoulder start was present. Have't looked at the vids for a couple of days. I do recall the should when stop-motioning through his start sequence and 0.04-0.05 showing the tail divergence forces quite clearly.
post #102 of 114
I see the definition of rotary argued about all the time here. Some people see it as a ways to a means, a byproduct of other external forces, as inevitable, as unavoidable, even necessary. Lito Tejada-Flores from the video Breakthrough on the New Skis claims that he doesn't use any rotary movements at all to start his turns, Harb teaches counteracting movements to offset the negative turning forces that rotary produces. My definition of harmful rotary is the use of any external force or movements that interfere or overpower the way the skis were designed to be used. The skis today have so much technology built into them, it makes no sense not to learn how to take advantage of it.
post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Honestly,,, the problem on the slopes is not of people trying to learn to carve after learning to steer well. The real problem I see is the neophyte carving skier who hasn't developed the base skills needed to handle the speeds carving thrust them into. They're unguided missiles, putting themselves, and those around them in peril.
This is another interesting point that nobody wants to talk about, but I have thought it many times myself. I'm not so sure its good for the greater society for all skiers to find out straight away the secrets of skiing fast on arcs. There is so much that comes from time-on-skis, physically, mentally and emotionally. Before shaped skis, new skiers did not have this option and the social ski order was such that it took a long time to learn how arc those straight skis, and that was not neccessarily a bad thing for the overall ski society we ski in. Frustrating for new skiers perhaps, but hey, having something to learn can also be interesting. But still, it took a long time to learn how to arc, and this generally was a speed control element.

I too, have concerns about teaching new skiers how to arc their skis. Perhaps it is true what some people are saying that if you teach them to twist their ankles to turn on the first day, they will spend the next 10 years learning how to carve. I actually do not have a problem with that. It SHOULD take them the next 10 years, for the good of our overall ski society, that is FINE WITH ME. The slopes have gotten increasingly crowded and dangerous with too many people skiing mach schnell and lacking the experience. Why make it worse. There is something good that comes from a slower learning progression that forces skiers to grow wise at the same rate they learn to ski fast.

However, the issue about new skiers is not the only thing being argued here. This thread has kind of been jumbled together with the other one. It started out as a request for MA from Bolter, though it was realistically more of a showcase from Bolter, then turned into a general is-steering-taboo-or-not thread...and given recent threads about race coaches, etc...its clear that we are not really talking about what beginners should be taught, we're talking about whether steering at all should be completely villianized in all skiers, including beginners, intermediates, experts, racers, Bolter, Rick, BTS and everyone alike.

What Rick is trying to say here, and I agree, is that steering has its place and it should not be completely villianized. Like him, I also spend a huge part of my time skiing on arcs. But there is no question that I use steering skills on a regular basis. Every time I enter a mogul field, get into super steep off piste I know I do for sure. If I raced I'm certain I would be using them on a regular basis, but I don't race.

I did not just naturally have those skills at birth. I learned them on non-shaped skis over the course of 10-15 years that it took skiing a few weekends a year to learn how to really carve and arc my skis in a controllable way. Anyone can twist their ankles, its true, but that alone does not constitute steering skills. There is an art to it and it takes time to learn and fine tune it, just like any other skill.

When I hear people frustrated by all the people they see on the mountain twisting their ankles, using gross amounts of upper body rotation, etc.. what I hear are the demons of an angry and frustrated austrian coach who can't stand the visuals he is seeing all over the slope, it drives him crazy that there are so many skiers out there that could be carving their skis and having more fun, and look better too....especially on shaped skis...if they just approached things a slightly different way. Ok.

Some of those skiers, the athletically gifted ones, I think would be ok to do that, but personally I think that the greater majority of them are not ready for the responsibilities of arcing their skis and should not be pestered about it. They should be allowed to swish and cruise, have all the fun they think they are having and maybe if they stick with it for 10 years the light bulb will go on and they will learn to arc too. What the austrian coach needs to do is take a chill pill, take a deep breath, relax and accept that this is a good and natural progression and that it takes time and that there are going to be a lot of tail swishers on the hill...perhaps the vast majority of skiers will fall into that category....and that is really not a bad thing for the good for the greater ski society. Personally, if everyone out there was arcing around, with the number of people on the hill as there are now, I would have to become a midweek only skier or something.
post #104 of 114
For clarification, that certain other system doesn't teach edge locked carving to beginners. The typical progression for beginners and intermediates is well covered in the materials. In fact, riding the sidecut isn't even considered to be carving in that system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I'm not so sure its good for the greater society for all skiers to find out straight away the secrets of skiing fast on arcs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
There is so much that comes from time-on-skis, physically, mentally and emotionally. Before shaped skis, new skiers did not have this option and the social ski order was such that it took a long time to learn how arc those straight skis, and that was not neccessarily a bad thing for the overall ski society we ski in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Perhaps it is true what some people are saying that if you teach them to twist their ankles to turn on the first day, they will spend the next 10 years learning how to carve. I actually do not have a problem with that. It SHOULD take them the next 10 years, for the good of our overall ski society, that is FINE WITH ME.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
They should be allowed to swish and cruise, have all the fun they think they are having and maybe if they stick with it for 10 years the light bulb will go on and they will learn to arc too. What the austrian coach needs to do is take a chill pill, take a deep breath, relax and accept that this is a good and natural progression and that it takes time and that there are going to be a lot of tail swishers on the hill...perhaps the vast majority of skiers will fall into that category....and that is really not a bad thing for the good for the greater ski society.
Wow...just wow!!! Are the sentiments mentioned above shared by the majority of ski instructors?
post #105 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Some of those skiers, the athletically gifted ones, I think would be ok to do that, but personally I think that the greater majority of them are not ready for the responsibilities of arcing their skis and should not be pestered about it. They should be allowed to swish and cruise, have all the fun they think they are having and maybe if they stick with it for 10 years the light bulb will go on and they will learn to arc too. What the austrian coach needs to do is take a chill pill, take a deep breath, relax and accept that this is a good and natural progression and that it takes time and that there are going to be a lot of tail swishers on the hill...perhaps the vast majority of skiers will fall into that category....and that is really not a bad thing for the good for the greater ski society. Personally, if everyone out there was arcing around, with the number of people on the hill as there are now, I would have to become a midweek only skier or something.
:::

I see. Following that approach, we could dumb down drivers education courses to the tail swish level and keep students on learners permits for 10 years (and off of high speed highways) until the light bulb goes off for a fraction of them to whom we could grant regular drivers licenses. There would be fewer collisions involving teens and twenty-somethings. The trouble is that one day (tomorrow or 10 years from now) those skiers / drivers are going to be on the slopes / highways at over 10 mph. Which training do you prefer? No drivers ed teacher starts off at highway speeds with never-evers and no direct to parallel instructors teach edge-locked carves to never-evers. The most effective of each do teach in such a way to transition to high performance as the student's abilities and progress permit.

I wonder how many skiers and drivers would simply give up, quit paying $$$ for lessons, permits, (gas), etc. if they knew from the start it would take 10 years to reach the first significant milepost of many on the path of success. Heck, I'd surrender pretty fast.

Dare we consider the lightbulb test and the 10-yr rule for voter eligibility, as you say for the greater good of society, because deciding the course of society is a somber burden perhaps beyond the proper, untested reach of many.

How about we give up on big brotherish societal planning, and rely instead on good ole individual responsibility. There's already a widely used Responsibility Code that's even reflected in some State laws. Resorts have the right and obligation to caution or remove boarders/skiers whom they see violating the code. Instructors have an obligation to tutor their students in the code. Skiers have a responsibility to not ski beyond their ability or beyond what is safe on the slope. 1) STAY IN CONTROL...

: BTW, the individual you are smearing calls himself Canadian, not Austrian. Seems reasonable since he grew up in Canada and raced on the Canadian National Ski Team. Given your geographic location, you should learn the difference between Canada and Austria
post #106 of 114
Heh heh...I had a feeling my politically incorrect statements would strike some funny.. Oh well.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post
I see. Following that approach, we could dumb down drivers education courses to the tail swish level and keep students on learners permits for 10 years (and off of high speed highways) until the light bulb goes off for a fraction of them to whom we could grant regular drivers licenses.
No, but interesting that you bring that up. We do make kids wait 16 years until they can even get a drivers permit or license at all. Why is that? How about gun permits? You think any old anybody of any age and experience should be allowed a gun permit? But wait you say, people die from bad drivers and gun owners. Yup. People have been dying from wreckless skiers too.

Quote:
The most effective of each do teach in such a way to transition to high performance as the student's abilities and progress permit.
If the mass majority of skiers on the mountain were taking lessons on a regular basis and following a well disciplined progression, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, they are not. They typically take one or two lessons (if even that) and as soon as they feel like they can rip a bit, they go off on their own, sometimes for years before ever thinking about another lesson. Handing a set of shaped skis to a new skier, showing him just enough about how to ski fast that he is dangerous and then waving good bye to him as he screams away....well...danger will robinson. On the other hand, if you have a dedicated student that is willing to engage in the proper training over the course of a few years...like say Max_501 for example, then I think this method of training of going right to arcing is perfectly fine. But Max and others like him do not represent the mass majority.

Quote:
I wonder how many skiers and drivers would simply give up, quit paying $$$ for lessons, permits, (gas), etc. if they knew from the start it would take 10 years to reach the first significant milepost of many on the path of success. Heck, I'd surrender pretty fast.
They only give up if they are not ignorant of what they are missing. Most skiers are ignorant of what they are missing. They are perfectly content to swish. The ones that really want to get beyond that have been at it a while and probably are more dedicated to pursue an accelerated program and thankfully there are programs out there for people like them.

Quote:
Dare we consider the lightbulb test and the 10-yr rule for voter eligibility, as you say for the greater good of society, because deciding the course of society is a somber burden perhaps beyond the proper, untested reach of many.
actually we have many requirements for voter registration, including 18 years of waiting; and for men, you have to register for selective service. The right to vote does not come for free.
post #107 of 114
The silliness of this is oen thing, the elitist nature is another but what is really sad is how misinformed you must be to actually make these staements

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
. I'm not so sure its good for the greater society for all skiers to find out straight away the secrets of skiing fast on arcs. There is so much that comes from time-on-skis, physically, mentally and emotionally. Before shaped skis, new skiers did not have this option and the social ski order was such that it took a long time to learn how arc those straight skis, and that was not neccessarily a bad thing for the overall ski society we ski in. Frustrating for new skiers perhaps, but hey, having something to learn can also be interesting. But still, it took a long time to learn how to arc, and this generally was a speed control element.
So what we had then and what we have now is skiers who are skiing way to fast, wearing helmets and skidding all over the place. You actually think these skiers have more control than a skier skiing arc to arc? If you do your just wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
The slopes have gotten increasingly crowded and dangerous with too many people skiing mach schnell and lacking the experience. Why make it worse. There is something good that comes from a slower learning progression that forces skiers to grow wise at the same rate they learn to ski fast.
This is nonsense. There hasn't been any real increase in skiers in a long long time. Many people are skiing faster and more recklessly not as a result of trying to carve but as a result of shorter more stable skis, better boots and most importantly grooming! Theyre skiing the same as they always have. They dont know how to ski and the gear hasnt helped them improve. In addition many see no value in ski instruction prob because for many who can't get good instruction they see it takes too long so instead tehy just keep hacking. So in fact it would be a better argument that it is not carving that creates what you view as a bad situattion but rather a broken ski school system stuck in status quo mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
When I hear people frustrated by all the people they see on the mountain twisting their ankles, using gross amounts of upper body rotation, etc.. what I hear are the demons of an angry and frustrated austrian coach who can't stand the visuals he is seeing all over the slope, it drives him crazy that there are so many skiers out there that could be carving their skis and having more fun, and look better too....especially on shaped skis...if they just approached things a slightly different way. Ok.
I dont know what you mean by a "frustrated austrian" but I dont think the frustration comes from observers it comes from the doers. The skiers who when it snows 3" can no longer ski, who can't handle bumps, chowda, etc all becasue no one has shown them how you make a round turn.
post #108 of 114
Yep..that's me....BTS the elitist!! ::::

BTW - 99% of the threads on this forum are ridiculous within the past year. Haven't you noticed already?
post #109 of 114

Rotary MA

Sorry for the long delay - some people have a life...
Bolter asked for an MA based on steering skills. I'm doing this MA based on rotary movements as defined by PSIA. I posted the visual cues for rotary movements earlier. This MA will review the video clips with respect to each cue.

-The skiers legs turn underneath a strong/stable torso to help guide the skis through the turn.
We can see your skis pointed more to the sides of the trail than your chest, thus your legs are turning underneath your torso. Your torso does move both vertically and laterally, but they are definitely not initiating the turning of the skis. Relative to the amount of guiding from leg turning (as opposed to the amount of leg turning from following the skis) the torso movement is small enough to keep the description of the torso as "strong/stable".

- Both skis and legs turn together throughout a parallel turn with the femur turning in the hip sockets (instead of the entire hip coming around).
We can see the hips turning to point slightly to each side of the fall line, but the skis and legs are turning together and separately from the hips.

- The skis are tipped and turned an appropriate amount to create a smooth C-shaped arc.
In the first clip I see a slightly pinched "c" shape versus a rounded "c" shape, but this is still a smooth "c". In these turns 98% of the turns are coming from tipping. The slight amount of guiding of the skis is appropriate for maintaining a smooth turn (I'll address this in more detail later). In the other clips I see less of a pinched shape, but still a tendency to "crank" the turn in the fall line.

- Rotary (steering) movements which redirect the ski at turn initiation are matched in timing and intensity by tipping the skis to prepare for increased forces caused by edge engagement.
There are no steering movements to redirect the ski at turn initiation.

-Rotary movements should be progressive, except for athletic moves needed to recover balance.
The movements are overall quite progressive. However, there is a tiny rotary movement "dead spot" at transition. This can be seen at the end of the first clip by the straightness of the line in between turns. On the right turns, there is a small up move occurring in this dead spot.

Here is a still from the first clip at 4 seconds showing a position just before the right turn is initiated.

Right after the position, the up move is the easiest to see. You can't see the right ski tip, but it appears that the right toe is behind the left heel. The further the feet are apart, the harder it is going to be for the new inside leg to tip into the next turn. As you rise up, you bring your feet closer together. Only then can you start tipping into the new turn. But this happens later than your left turns and the result is the next position from the middle of your right turn.



Here the skis are diverging and the outside ski is beginning to fall behind. You correct this nicely by tipping the outside foot. In most turns, this causes the outside ski to engage more and then rejoin the path of the inside ski. In some turns, there is a tiny amount of pivoting at the foot to assist this correction. Sitting in my office chair, if I tip my right leg by moving my knee and don't allow my foot to slip on the floor, then the chair turns. If I allow my foot to slip on the floor, I can tip my foot without moving the chair. In this case, my foot pivots on the floor as I tip. It's easiest to just pivot the heel out, but it's possible to pivot from the center of the foot. I believe this is the "tail washing" that others have observed.

Ideally, we want to check our carving by viewing pencil thin tracks on groomed snow. Because the snow is not packed corduroy, it's hard to use the ski tracks to prove skidding/tail washing and even more interesting that I'm going to use the left turn to prove it.

Look at the left turn track in the pic above. You can clearly see where the ski track marks are wider in the belly of the turn (compare to the right turns) proving that some skidding has occurred. This is an example of guiding the skis/steering the skis. It's good skiing because it's an example of an appropriate amount of turning to complement tipping in order to achieve a "C" shaped turn.

Now here's the same pic with straight lines drawn from the apex of one turn to the next.


Ideally, for round turns, we'd expect to see more deviation of the tracks from the straight line. It's my contention that these tracks are a visual representation of the "dead spot" that I referred to above.

My rotary based suggestion to cure the dead spot is fix the discrepancy between the angle of the line between the toes (tip lead) and the angle of the shoulders (otherwise known as counter). Either you can finish your turns with more turning of the legs relative to the shoulders to create more counter (and let your new inside foot catch up earlier) or you can incorporate more forward movement in your turn initiation so that you more aggressive guide the outside ski through tipping movements earlier in the turn. The idea here is that we want to change the timing of the appropriate tipping and turning to unpinch the "c" shape. This will eliminate the slight steering/ski redirection in the belly of the turn that some have observed as tail wash and reduce the amount of torso movement.

Now I have a question for you. This is how I would try to ski if I were running gates. If you put a gate inside the left turn in the last pic, is that the line you would want or would you have preferred a different shape?
post #110 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by s0nyskiwer_(jib) View Post
The silliness of this is oen thing, the elitist nature is another but what is really sad is how misinformed you must be to actually make these staements
This sounds like someone I know who is a Former Member.
Well, off to banned camp.
post #111 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
On the other hand, if you have a dedicated student that is willing to engage in the proper training over the course of a few years...like say Max_501 for example, then I think this method of training of going right to arcing is perfectly fine..
What makes you think PMTS goes right to arcing (as arcing is often defined on Epic...edge locked turns made arc to arc)?

All you have to do is check the books to see that is NOT the case.

Take Book 2 as an example. It is 185 pages. There are self tests to give yourself after each chapter to see if you are ready to move to the next chapter. Chapter 11 (page 127) is the beginning of the GRADUATE course. Its title is carving. The BPST is taught before the carving section.
post #112 of 114

Brilliant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac View Post
I see the definition of rotary argued about all the time here. Some people see it as a ways to a means, a byproduct of other external forces, as inevitable, as unavoidable, even necessary. Lito Tejada-Flores from the video Breakthrough on the New Skis claims that he doesn't use any rotary movements at all to start his turns, Harb teaches counteracting movements to offset the negative turning forces that rotary produces. My definition of harmful rotary is the use of any external force or movements that interfere or overpower the way the skis were designed to be used. The skis today have so much technology built into them, it makes no sense not to learn how to take advantage of it.
Checking in from my summer nap....tennis, new road bike, golf and work....

This might be the best post I have ever read on epicski.....esp the last sentence. (of course any post which mentions Lito gets my attention)

Look at the modern ski...really look at it. Amazing technology....the hard work we used to have to do (rotary mostly is done for us....get forward, engage the tips, tip em and rip em....

Find some good videos, watch em carefully then get out and do it.

With the new stuff, practice is fun!

Brilliant post Mac!!!

carry on with the duel....I'm back out on the bike!

:
post #113 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Sorry for the long delay - some people have a life...
Bolter asked for an MA based on steering skills. I'm doing this MA based on rotary movements as defined by PSIA. I posted the visual cues for rotary movements earlier. This MA will review the video clips with respect to each cue.

-The skiers legs turn underneath a strong/stable torso to help guide the skis through the turn.
We can see your skis pointed more to the sides of the trail than your chest, thus your legs are turning underneath your torso. Your torso does move both vertically and laterally, but they are definitely not initiating the turning of the skis. Relative to the amount of guiding from leg turning (as opposed to the amount of leg turning from following the skis) the torso movement is small enough to keep the description of the torso as "strong/stable".

- Both skis and legs turn together throughout a parallel turn with the femur turning in the hip sockets (instead of the entire hip coming around).
We can see the hips turning to point slightly to each side of the fall line, but the skis and legs are turning together and separately from the hips.

- The skis are tipped and turned an appropriate amount to create a smooth C-shaped arc.
In the first clip I see a slightly pinched "c" shape versus a rounded "c" shape, but this is still a smooth "c". In these turns 98% of the turns are coming from tipping. The slight amount of guiding of the skis is appropriate for maintaining a smooth turn (I'll address this in more detail later). In the other clips I see less of a pinched shape, but still a tendency to "crank" the turn in the fall line.

- Rotary (steering) movements which redirect the ski at turn initiation are matched in timing and intensity by tipping the skis to prepare for increased forces caused by edge engagement.
There are no steering movements to redirect the ski at turn initiation.

-Rotary movements should be progressive, except for athletic moves needed to recover balance.
The movements are overall quite progressive. However, there is a tiny rotary movement "dead spot" at transition. This can be seen at the end of the first clip by the straightness of the line in between turns. On the right turns, there is a small up move occurring in this dead spot.

Here is a still from the first clip at 4 seconds showing a position just before the right turn is initiated.

Right after the position, the up move is the easiest to see. You can't see the right ski tip, but it appears that the right toe is behind the left heel. The further the feet are apart, the harder it is going to be for the new inside leg to tip into the next turn. As you rise up, you bring your feet closer together. Only then can you start tipping into the new turn. But this happens later than your left turns and the result is the next position from the middle of your right turn.



Here the skis are diverging and the outside ski is beginning to fall behind. You correct this nicely by tipping the outside foot. In most turns, this causes the outside ski to engage more and then rejoin the path of the inside ski. In some turns, there is a tiny amount of pivoting at the foot to assist this correction. Sitting in my office chair, if I tip my right leg by moving my knee and don't allow my foot to slip on the floor, then the chair turns. If I allow my foot to slip on the floor, I can tip my foot without moving the chair. In this case, my foot pivots on the floor as I tip. It's easiest to just pivot the heel out, but it's possible to pivot from the center of the foot. I believe this is the "tail washing" that others have observed.

Ideally, we want to check our carving by viewing pencil thin tracks on groomed snow. Because the snow is not packed corduroy, it's hard to use the ski tracks to prove skidding/tail washing and even more interesting that I'm going to use the left turn to prove it.

Look at the left turn track in the pic above. You can clearly see where the ski track marks are wider in the belly of the turn (compare to the right turns) proving that some skidding has occurred. This is an example of guiding the skis/steering the skis. It's good skiing because it's an example of an appropriate amount of turning to complement tipping in order to achieve a "C" shaped turn.

I believe there is a second explanation for "belly wash" that doesn't involve tail washout. In softer snow, when a more aggressive tipping angle is generated to tighten the arc, the cross section of the ski shape changes at the snow surface. The pressure underfoot drives the center of the ski into the snow surface, the two "hang points of the ski at shovel a tail are pulled toward each other as the ski ends more. The result isn't a tail wash in the sense of a diverging tail from the tip, but the shovel and tail being pulled toward the underfoot portion of the ski. The underfoot section is briefly where the most centripetal force is generated and the support base of the ski. The widest points tip and tail are cutting hard trying to pull the ski back "up" into the undistorted arc where tail follows tip (and all points along the ski as well). Once the forces in the center of the ski dissipate (post belly) and are no longer pulling the tip and tail out of a perfect arc.

I'm on a cell phone so - can't offer any graphic display of what I'm trying to suggest, but hopefully the words draw a picture.

Primarily my point is that forces shaping the thicker track in the belly aren't the result of rotary steering input by Bolter.

I don't deny steering exits, but my experience is that it may not be the only explanation for the tracks Bolter leaves in the snow.
post #114 of 114
Medmarko,

That explanation is as good as any for a general possibility. I think of it in simpler terms. When the radius of the turn is changed in the middle of the turn, there will be skidding in the tracks (i.e. the track line will not be pencil thin). But when there is a diverging outside ski at the beginning of the turn, either the tip has to turn more than the tail to get back on to the arc or the whole ski has to get onto a tighter arc or else the stance width will increase.

Where Bolter's turns have a "steering" correction, it comes from cranking the edge angle of the outside ski to get it on a tighter arc. When the entire ski engages, the sharper change of direction of the tail of the ski is visible, but it's on an arc and you can see the ski bend. When the tail does not engage, a pivot parallel to the snow surface can be seen. It's the latter case that produces the widest tracks. This happens in very few turns on the clips, but it does happen in each clip. You can see both skis washing in the left turn that I pointed out. It's not coming from ski bend in soft snow. For most of the turns, the steering is very brief (only visible in one frame), for this turn you can see it for 3 frames.
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