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Off-topic to What are race coaches teaching?  

post #1 of 75
Thread Starter 
Max, any idea if in consideration of your reported findings at Hood, HH is thinking of dropping his teaching of these rotary driven turns? Or does he still consider them an important skill to practice and learn? BTW, if you speak to him, tell him Rick sends him a for teaching non carving skills too.




Max, is that semi-aggressive tail push in the top of the turn, and harsh pressure application after top of the turn redirecton an inherent part of the PMTS brushed turn? Or is it something you modify as you desire? Was he was purposely demoing a more pushy initiation in that video?
post #2 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Max, any idea if in consideration of your reported findings at Hood, HH is thinking of dropping his teaching of these rotary driven turns? Or does he still consider them an important skill to practice and learn? BTW, if you speak to him, tell him Rick sends him a for teaching non carving skills too.
Rotary DRIVEN turns? Are you serious? BTW, a non carved turn has been part of PMTS since book 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post


Max, is that semi-aggressive tail push in the top of the turn, and harsh pressure application after top of the turn redirecton an inherent part of the PMTS brushed turn? Or is it something you modify as you desire? Was he was purposely demoing a more pushy initiation in that video?
Semi-aggressive tail push? You must be kidding.

And why do you continue to bring PMTS into this thread?
post #3 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post

And why do you continue to bring PMTS into this thread?

It's viral marketing. Sweet skiing in that video...... I think I'll buy all the PMTS books and videos.
post #4 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Max, any idea if in consideration of your reported findings at Hood, HH is thinking of dropping his teaching of these rotary driven turns? Or does he still consider them an important skill to practice and learn? BTW, if you speak to him, tell him Rick sends him a for teaching non carving skills too.




Max, is that semi-aggressive tail push in the top of the turn, and harsh pressure application after top of the turn redirecton an inherent part of the PMTS brushed turn? Or is it something you modify as you desire? Was he was purposely demoing a more pushy initiation in that video?
What is it about that video that just looks wrong?

too narrow? :too much weight on inside ski? : hell I don't know it just does not look right to me:

Definetly tail push! Not enough hip angulation?: Looks like a lot of leanin' in to me rather then inclination maybe?

maybe most of it is just from being way so narrow?:
post #5 of 75
"It's viral marketing. Sweet skiing in that video...... I think I'll buy all the PMTS books and videos."

lol, make sure you buy through the link on Rick's website so he gets his commision.
post #6 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Rotary DRIVEN turns? Are you serious? BTW, a non carved turn has been part of PMTS since book 1.


Totally serious.

So, my question still stands. You reported that there was very little non carving training going on at Hood. This data point I've provided suggests HH is not in step with that current trend, as you observed it. Will he be sticking to his guns in focusing on non carved turns in his training methodology?


Quote:
Semi-aggressive tail push? You must be kidding.
Again, I'm not kidding. I really don't understand your confusion about that. Usually, if I kid, I include a laugh face, or a wink, so people will know.

Yes, the non carving in that video is a version that includes redirection prior to a pressured engagement later. Can't see it? Check out when the snow flys in most the turns. Nothing,,, nothing,,, nothing,,, then a big poof around the time the skis reach the falline. I'm not criticising it,,, just identifying the form of non carving being used in those turns.

I was just wondering if he also teaches a smoother initiation, with less pre engagement redirection in his non carving progression? I do in mine. Check out the final non carving segment of this video I put together.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Fs2jkOA74o
There is virtually no redirection happening prior to pressured engagement, and the pressure and snow fly remains much more consistent through the entire turn. That's in contrast her earlier non carving segments, where some redirection is taking place, pressure application is delayed, and snow fly is more consolidated later in the turn.

There are many forms of non carving, as you can see in my video. I was just curios if Harald focuses on more than the one featured in his video.




Quote:
And why do you continue to bring PMTS into this thread?
As to your suggestion, I'm providing more data points for consideration. I've added two new ones for you, and everyone. This thread is about what race coaches are teaching. HH is a race coach, and so am I. Strangely enough, when it comes to bucking the trend of "carving only" you think you observed, he and I are apparently in agreement in leaning towards the non-conventional.
post #7 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
too narrow? :too much weight on inside ski?
Definetly tail push!
maybe most of it is just from being way so narrow?:

Kinda looks that way to me too .


JF
post #8 of 75
If you want to dissect HH's skiing in that video (or any other video) please start a separate thread for it and I'll be happy to chime in. But that discussion is already derailing this thread.
post #9 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If you want to dissect HH's skiing in that video (or any other video) please start a separate thread for it and I'll be happy to chime in. But that discussion is already derailing this thread.
What are you talking about, Max? It's totally on topic. The thread is about "What are race coaches teaching". HH is a race coach, non-carving is PART of what he's currently teaching, and that flies in the face of what you found of the vast majority of the coaches at Hood. It's a very interesting "data point".

I'd still be interested to hear if he teaches more refined forms of non-carving too, or just the loose/pushy entry version shown in the video. Figure you're the guy to ask, and it would help educate us all on exactly "What are race coaches teaching".

As I said, I'm impressed that he's teaching some of the non-carving stuff that I and JASP and others who've contributed to your thread deem so important. And has been since book 1. I think it's proving very enlightening and educational for the readers.
post #10 of 75
Rick,

re: HH video

Do you view those turns as an example of a tail push or as pressure on the forebody driving the pivot or simply steering when the skis have flattened?

To my eye, these are a close example of the type of turns I was trying to describe in a thread a couple months ago about ways to turn the skis -- use so much forebody pressure that the tails break loose and the skis pivot. In the video, the amount of fwd movement of the balance/pressure point is minimized by the extreme stiffness of the boot.

A small amount of pivotting creates the initial steering angle, then forward pressure dominates. That may explain why A-man thinks it looks so wrong -- a braking force is used to turn the skis.

Using forebody pressure to turn the skis is slower than pivotting while the skis are flat. That pressuring of the forebody is a speed control technique and it works: note that he maintains a constant speed throughout the run.
post #11 of 75
1. I stand by my bet. Max would take Rick in a real GS course. I'm not talking about Nastar here. A real GS course.

2. I've got 10K that says Harb not only beats Rick but does it by 5 seconds.

3. The analysis of the Harb video just confirms what many on here have known for a long time. That there are many on here who hide behind a lot of jargon and technical talk but when it comes down to it they have no clue what they are talking about. If you can't analyze simple free skiing then how in the world are you capable of analyzing the world cup tour.:

4. The video posted on edging progression has bad demos and even worse advice. I haven't seen that type of straight up and down movement since Marker long thongs were being used.

5. If you want to see what kids can do on skis then look for video of Bridger Gile. You can see him as a 5 year old. It clearly demonstrates what Big E described as the big head effect and yet he can carve a ski in a GS course no problem.

6. "neuro pathways" ....sheesh
post #12 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
A small amount of pivotting creates the initial steering angle, then forward pressure dominates.
In order to make even tighter turns should you increase pivotting or increase forward pressure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Using forebody pressure to turn the skis is slower than pivotting while the skis are flat. That pressuring of the forebody is a speed control technique and it works: note that he maintains a constant speed throughout the run.
I am confused by the way you use the words "slow" and "speed". With the word "slow"..... do you mean how quickly you manage to turn the skis? Not how fast the skier is travielling in terms of velocity like later on when you talk about "speed"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
That may explain why A-man thinks it looks so wrong -- a braking force is used to turn the skis.
You are saying: forward pressure = braking force!!?
post #13 of 75
If Nolo gives me permission I'm happy to get into this HH stuff in detail (which will include quotes from the books, the website, and possibly some video examples). But until then I have to keep it simple.

Does HH teach an active steering, pivoting, or redirection of the skis? No.
post #14 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If Nolo gives me permission I'm happy to get into this HH stuff in detail (which will include quotes from the books, the website, and possibly some video examples). But until then I have to keep it simple.

Does HH teach an active steering, pivoting, or redirection of the skis? No.
So what do you guys do when a slope is too steep or too steep and narrow to purely carve?
post #15 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
So what do you guys do when a slope is too steep or too steep and narrow to purely carve?
That would be what we call the bullet proof short turn which has been discussed quite a bit in other threads.
post #16 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
That would be what we call the bullet proof short turn which has been discussed quite a bit in other threads.
I have a tough time beleiveing that turn is going to aloow you to not skidd on a hard steep pitch.

Why does it always look like you guys are artificially pressing your ankles together. You are very narrow. Now I am not a huge wide stance guy but this looks too narrow to be a good functional width. Looks unaturally narrow.

It reminds me of Stein Erikson and Wedeln which went the way of the Edsel:
post #17 of 75
[Mod hat on]Friendly reminder! As a community of open dialog on skiing and snowsports, Epic's stance is that terms such as "right or wrong" and "good or bad" have a poor application in productive technique discussions. Please remember that technique values and experiences are subjective to each person, and it's OK to disagree with another poster's opinions without character attacks and slander. Be aware that satire, sarcasm or facetious comments, intended as humor, may not be read in the tone intended. Disruptive posts may be subject to deletion or closing of the thread. [/Mod hat off]
post #18 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
I have a tough time beleiveing that turn is going to aloow you to not skidd on a hard steep pitch.
The point of that turn is for all mountain use where you wouldn't want to edge lock carve. So the turn produces a controlled brushing of the edges against the snow when used on a steep pitch. I suppose some would call that skidding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Why does it always look like you guys are artificially pressing your ankles together. You are very narrow. Now I am not a huge wide stance guy but this looks too narrow to be a good functional width. Looks unaturally narrow.
I would bet that if you spent a day skiing with HH in all mountain conditions any notion you have of that stance being anything but very functional would be eliminated.
post #19 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
The point of that turn is for all mountain use where you wouldn't want to edge lock carve. So the turn produces a controlled brushing of the edges against the snow when used on a steep pitch. I suppose some would call that skidding.



I would bet that if you spent a day skiing with HH in all mountain conditions any notion you have of that stance being anything but very functional would be eliminated.
That very well could be true!

I am certainly not opposed to a more narrow, upright stance in bumps and powder.
post #20 of 75
Here's a functional stance for you. ::. I can categorically say that I never want to ski like that and I never ever want to dress like that!

post #21 of 75
One extreme to the next! Now that is a Wide Track Pontiac! Not to mention a bunch of other weird stuff goin' on!
post #22 of 75
thats a demo of some sort. I don't remember just what.
post #23 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j View Post
thats a demo of some sort. I don't remember just what.
Long leg short leg?
post #24 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
One extreme to the next! Now that is a Wide Track Pontiac!
Is this too wide?
http://youcanski.com/gallery/wp-cont...4-1-of-1-1.jpg
post #25 of 75
Volklskier, you picked those photos of Rick out of another member's photo album and your unsolicited commentary is out of context and clearly intended as uncomplimentary. Whatever grudge you may think you have to settle is ending now. This thread is being closed.

Edit: Just to clarify, the diversion of this thread from its original topic was done by a number of participants, and began somewhere before post 100. Although Philpug posted a warning, the thread continued in a decidedly personal direction, I felt it is better to close it than to continue in the direction of the last page or two.
post #26 of 75
You guys are just silly. I was skiing with Rick that day. I know what he was doing. You obviously have no idea. A few questions:
  1. What time of year was it?
  2. What type of terrain was it?
  3. What was the purpose of his skiing that day?
  4. What was the purpose of his skiing on this section?
Hint: He was NOT free-skiing.

Geez... :
post #27 of 75
Reminder as we re-open this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
[Mod hat on]Friendly reminder! As a community of open dialog on skiing and snowsports, Epic's stance is that terms such as "right or wrong" and "good or bad" have a poor application in productive technique discussions. Please remember that technique values and experiences are subjective to each person, and it's OK to disagree with another poster's opinions without character attacks and slander. Be aware that satire, sarcasm or facetious comments, intended as humor, may not be read in the tone intended. Disruptive posts may be subject to deletion or closing of the thread. [/Mod hat off]
post #28 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
You guys are just silly. I was skiing with Rick that day. I know what he was doing. You obviously have no idea. A few questions:
  1. What time of year was it?
  2. What type of terrain was it?
  3. What was the purpose of his skiing that day?
  4. What was the purpose of his skiing on this section?
Hint: He was NOT free-skiing.

Geez... :

Eye witness report: Rick was not free-skiiing in those photos. So he must've been teaching and he is a race coach, so what was this race coach teaching or illustrating?

ssh, while the guessing game is fun, it can also lead to clouds of confusion and this thread would benefit from some clarity after all it's been through. As an eyewitness to this race coach teaching, can you explain precisely what he was teaching? (And for 10 bonus points, why was it a good lesson for that day?)

thanks.
post #29 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
You guys are just silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post
ssh, while the guessing game is fun, it can also lead to clouds of confusion and this thread would benefit from some clarity after all it's been through. As an eyewitness to this race coach teaching, can you explain precisely what he was teaching? (And for 10 bonus points, why was it a good lesson for that day?)

thanks.
This whole thing could be cleared right up if Rick would post some video of his skiing.
post #30 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
You guys are just silly. I was skiing with Rick that day. I know what he was doing. You obviously have no idea. A few questions:
  1. What time of year was it?
  2. What type of terrain was it?
  3. What was the purpose of his skiing that day?
  4. What was the purpose of his skiing on this section?
Hint: He was NOT free-skiing.

Geez... :
Not sure of the answers to the questions above, but I got a message that the image was taken from this trip report THREAD, which states the time of year as 10/29.

A quote from the OP gives some additional info:
Quote:
It was a warm day, but intermittent cloud cover moderated the temperatures. Snow conditions were still great, with lots of soft stuff everywhere. Lift lines were non-existent. We made lap after lap off Chair 1 on Spillway and Richard's Run in the morning. Then on to Chair 2 later in the morning/early afternoon. Fire Bowl and Drifter off Chair 2 were pretty crowded. Richard's Run was pretty much deserted.

We skied, we did some drills, we had a blast. What a great start to the season!
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