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Helmets and honesty - Page 3

post #61 of 75
Thanks for the excellent group of links, I've bookmarked the post for future reference. This topic never seems to go out of season.
post #62 of 75

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I:)Skiing View Post
I know, there have been a hundred threads on helments..but its summer. Here is a new twist or just a simple true story. I feel it reveals much, some of which has been said before.


Kids---3 yr olds--are honest. Especially when they don't want candy.


My son is riding a normal bike with training wheels. He is a bit of a dare devil. As I came home from work yesterday, he showed me something he just learned. He stands on the training wheel bars, holds onto the handle bars bars and glides down the paved driveway until it dead-ends into a stone wall. Smack..he is jolted forward and stops...He laughs and wants to do it again.


I tell him this is not the way to ride a bike and I will be taking it away if I ever see it again.


His response. "ITS OK DADDY, I AM WEARING MY HELMET!"



We are not all the same and we surely do not think the same. I just feel there is definitely more people who skis faster/more aggressive when wearing a helmet than if they didn't. Whether (we) care to admit it or not to ourselves or others.

I'll admit it..., I don't like, it but will. I know I ski the trees faster or tighter. I have less fear going off a kicker (I would not even try if I didn't wear one). I would not attempt a personal speed record without one, but would with one. Ice? No worries. All of this....knowing that the helmet really would not do too much for me crashing at these speed or falling from those heights.

Now, how do I convience my son that he's wrong.


Take your son's helmet away from him, not the bike - he might stop or change, then again..............
 

post #63 of 75
Thread Starter 

Update,

 

Last time I posted my son was standing on the back of his training wheel supports.     At 3 yrs 9 months he asked me to take them off---because they slow him down.    Grabbed the wrench and they were gone, knowing I would soon be putting them back on.   After one push....he is free.     

 

 

So far he has booked a 8 mile trip on smooth pavement, an unfinished highway near my home. 

6 miles on a gravel rails to trails.

Yesterday, he showed me  how he stands and bikes----definitely helps up hills.   

 

THe bell on his bike is 100% for ringing and yelling at folks who do not have helmets.   He's addictedto his helmet, like daddy.     

 

Last day of skiing this winter, he turned in his uncle to ski patrol---no helmet, they wrote him a fake ticket to please the boy.     

 

 

post #64 of 75

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I:)Skiing View Post

 

THe bell on his bike is 100% for ringing and yelling at folks who do not have helmets.   He's addictedto his helmet, like daddy.     

 

Last day of skiing this winter, he turned in his uncle to ski patrol---no helmet, they wrote him a fake ticket to please the boy.     

 

 


Cool on the bike riding.
 

 

You've also trained him to use the bell not to alert people of his presence or even just for a social greeting, but solely to harangue passers-by about behavior that does not impact him.  Chilling.  I would not assume that the bike-riding experience 'round you is the better for it. 

post #65 of 75

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

 


Cool on the bike riding.
 

 

You've also trained him to use the bell not to alert people of his presence or even just for a social greeting, but solely to harangue passers-by about behavior that does not impact him.  Chilling.  I would not assume that the bike-riding experience 'round you is the better for it. 


Shut up.

Nobody is training their kid. This isn't pet-school. Go crawl under a rock with your non-personality kids. 

 

All of you others posting in threads about helmets need to stop the nonsense. This OP started a thread about his kid, it's cute. So STFU about your false insights into nonsense so you can hear yourself speak about crap nobody ever said. Nobody actually cares what you think about helmets, or social responsibility, or whatever. 

 

The helmet conversation died a long time ago. STFU. 

 

Kids biking into walls, however, is brilliant and worthy of years of dialogue. 

post #66 of 75

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by samurai View Post

 


Shut up.

Nobody is training their kid. This isn't pet-school. Go crawl under a rock with your non-personality kids. 

 

All of you others posting in threads about helmets need to stop the nonsense. This OP started a thread about his kid, it's cute. So STFU about your false insights into nonsense so you can hear yourself speak about crap nobody ever said. Nobody actually cares what you think about helmets, or social responsibility, or whatever. 

 

The helmet conversation died a long time ago. STFU. 

 

Kids biking into walls, however, is brilliant and worthy of years of dialogue. 


Not many kids under 4 are going to conduct an independent cost-benefit analysis of helmets vs recreation, etc., and then also take the leap to saying that this is THE issue they're going to adopt and pursue in a very strident, even confrontational way.   It comes from somewhere.  Train, indoctrinate, teach, whatever.  Unless Dad has told him that his ringing his bell and yelling at people on the rail-trail that they should be wearing helmets is inappropriate and will result in discipline, he is in fact encouraging the behavior.  His post here sounds pretty proud, both of his son's riding development and of his son's yelling at people.  He SHOULD be proud of his son's athletic development.  Socially and in terms of being a good member of the biking community he may want to think about what being a bike rider, or a skier, means.
 


Edited by CTKook - 5/11/2009 at 01:59 pm GMT
post #67 of 75
Thread Starter 

CTCOOK---

 

 

I only have to assume that you do not or did not have kids....and if you did, you were not aware of their

Black/White mentality.     If they are told to wear a helmet.....then everyone should.      As you may know or see....kids first defense of not wanting to do something is..."but xyz does not have to do it"   Black and White.       

 

 

Trust me when I say...I have never, ever, encouraged my son, or daughter to point, correct, speak to etc anyone about anything.   When he speaks to others, I firvently listen and correct or  admonished him when appropriate.  When 99.9999% of the people either laugh, smile or say...."your right"...it may not be the time to correct him.      

 

Read some kids books...kids play.     Gone are the days of playing cops and robbers or indians and coyboys.....today's kids want to play too.   I guess this is his perferred method.    Biking is something we are doing (like skiing) when we are actually doing something else...like engaging each other in conversation or the public in a broader game of "eye spy".   You might ski or bike as your focus.....we don't.      When I played cowboy or cop, I never ran across an adult who chastized me for shooting at them as I accused them of being a robber or indian.   To me, it's the same deal.     But I can see how a real robber might take offense.....similar to someone opposes a 3 yr old suggesting he wear a helmet.    Take it for what it is worth.  

 

It was my bad, perhaps exageration (sorry) that he exclusively uses the bell to cite the helmetless.   Perhaps it was that day that he did so 100%.   Let me assure you and the biking public the bell is used as a warning device....not that he is passing too many folks these days.         

 

For your knowlege, because you are somehow afraid of what he may become or what I may be teaching him:    He rings his bell when people smile at him or laugh at him as they bike past....Kids this age can SENSE if someone is friendly or fearsome.      From the tone of your post...I guess is he would let you pass without comment.        For MOST everyone else, we have fun and this is what it is all about.     And for the biking world,  while it has decreased 10% over the years due to kids on computers...my guess is they encourage kids like mine and are happy they are in the sport.  

 

 

Maybe you should hang out with a 3 yr old someday.....or better yet, maybe not.     

 

 

Lastly,    Because my son is now hanging out at the local skate park....with shirtless, helmetless 10 yr olds...I am already getting set for the argumentitive days ahead.      He already asked me twice why he has to wear a shirt when riding his bike over the ramps when the big boys don't have to.      By the way...Yes I am ardent about wearing shirts too....same reason.   Safety of the skin in that case. 

 

PS--he rings his bell and yells.."dropping" before he goes.       Yet a 3rd use of the bell.  

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by I:)Skiing - 5/18/2009 at 07:07 pm GMT
post #68 of 75

I:)Skiing -- I agree.  Your post reminded me of when my son was around 8-10 and had REALLY gotten the message from his mom and me (and his elementary school -- complete with the gory cancer photos) that smoking was bad.  And for a while whenever we were in public and he'd see someone smoking, he'd call out to them "stop smoking".  Took us a while -- and one "interesting" situation involving some Harley biker dudes -- to explain to him that even though his intent was laudable (saving lives), that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.  Who knows, maybe he, and your son, were right...

post #69 of 75

 

I :) Skiing,

 

Very good well-reasoned post.  I'm always happy to see kids on bikes.  Frankly your earlier post was pretty unqualified when you said his bell was 100% for ringing and yelling at folks who didn't have helmets, which is why I posted as I did.  It sounds like the reality is more nuanced and that's great, though running around correcting adults in general is not good practice and the smoking example is on point, and in the context of bike riding is more off -- why not tell people they should improve their bike handling skills, which for most could use more work and could, if improved, lessen their risk of head injury far more than just wearing a helmet?  Why not tell them they could hurt their head riding a bike and should be speed-walking?

 

Answer: because it's their business, not yours.  

 

Park etiquette, for example, involves both allowing people "turns" and also not creating unnecessary risk through your own behavior.  It does not involve telling other people what you think is safe for THEM to do...because their wrestling with that judgment on their own is an integral part of the sport.  That's one good lesson your son will learn at the park and is one reason why parks are such a good thing.   

 

BTW I have kids, and also a 20" myself still.      

post #70 of 75
Thread Starter 

Ahhh....we can all relax.    

 

 

On a new front:  A 12 yrold gave my boy some props yesterday.       He "counseled" some of his friends to respect the "Jr Rider's drop call".      In all honesty the other kids were fine....as far as they could tell...they were well out of the way, but giving my son the "heebie jeebies" as he was watching out for them instead of concentrating on his ramping.

 

Back to the Thread:   Helments and Honest---from the view point of 3,now 4 yr olds who are basically incapable of lying---unless it fits their need for candy. 

 

 

Premise---Adults ( Me) ski more agressive when wearing a helmet than not wearing a helmet.   I might turn the facts to say that I ski the way I ski when wearing a helmet and would ski LESS agressively when not in a helmet.        To this reasoning...I say I am lying to myself.     

 

For proof I point to the initial post in this thread and what occured yesterday.   A really good kid did a 360 and got about 7 feet of air off a 2.5 foot jump.     My son said that there was no way he would try that today...I asked why.  He advised he needed to get a "bigger" helmet and wear a thick shirt and long pants first.      Hence--he equates safety gear with being able to "Go big".....not training and experience as as I have been coaching him in.  

 

 

SO.....how many days of training on steeps, crud, ice, crust, GS course Etc.. does YOUR helmet account for...?   I'll go first and say 7...seems like a good number.    "If I skied this stuff 7 days straight and did not fall or get out of control...I might ski it the "same way" without a helmet.   BTW..not 7 days for all of the items noted....7 days for each of the items noted.      I say this under the theory that after one skis a run for the first time, the second time is easier, third time much easier etc.           

post #71 of 75

Knowing that the helmet merely protects my head and there are plenty of other body parts to hurt means there is no difference between when I wear a helmet and when I don't. 

 

I am still suffering from my wrists being broken in March 2007, so it's a constant reminder to keep in control at all times.

post #72 of 75

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I:)Skiing View Post

  

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

For proof I point to the initial post in this thread and what occur ed yesterday.   A really good kid did a 360 and got about 7 feet of air off a 2.5 foot jump.     My son said that there was no way he would try that today...I asked why.  He advised he needed to get a "bigger" helmet and wear a thick shirt and long pants first.      Hence--he equates safety gear with being able to "Go big".....not training and experience as as I have been coaching him in.  

 

 

.           


I see lots of difference in the OP and your son and his quest for more of everything.  The young one in the OP is showing his perception of the explanations he has received  regarding  the use of a helmet.  To cushion a head blow. So now he's exploring the limits of that helmet to protect him from pain not fully understanding the purpose of the helmet and that  being protection from accidental injury. Kids seem to be stunt-persons in training in their  sensual explorations

As far as your son I think your training and experience are evident in what he has shown in learning how to safely hit features with enthusiasm. But the other part of him is picturing what failure might feel like and he wants to prepare for that also. He is learning the ratio of success to  failure of  the in the learning curve of the park . He just using very good judgment and I would buy that kid some armor and keep up the coaching.

 

I am not sure relaxation is in the cards for this one. I do see lots of fun in them for you both  though.

post #73 of 75

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I:)Skiing View Post

...

 

 

Premise---Adults ( Me) ski more agressive when wearing a helmet than not wearing a helmet.   I might turn the facts to say that I ski the way I ski when wearing a helmet and would ski LESS agressively when not in a helmet.        To this reasoning...I say I am lying to myself.     

 

For proof I point to the initial post in this thread and what occured yesterday.   A really good kid did a 360 and got about 7 feet of air off a 2.5 foot jump.     My son said that there was no way he would try that today...I asked why.  He advised he needed to get a "bigger" helmet and wear a thick shirt and long pants first.      Hence--he equates safety gear with being able to "Go big".....not training and experience as as I have been coaching him in.  

 

 

        



 

Yep, parks also give lots of data on risk homeostasis/compensation.  It actually makes perfect sense, and for some things can even be an important part of the learning progession.    Thick shirt and long pants while learning to bunny hop, then 360 bunny-hop, for instance, can be a good idea.  While just cruising in the backyard without shirt or helmet could be totally reasonable if it's ok in a given household to do so.  The most hardcore no helmet/no pads rider will, given a big enough ramp, either avoid it or pad and helmet up, a lot.

 

For helmets just about every helmet thread has someone saying how they ski a lot faster with a helmet, but more "safely" or more "aware."  So they're admitting to risk compensation but then feeling compelled to deny it.  Irrational but for most it's a cultural/fashion point not a gear choice and culture is illogical.

post #74 of 75

I think that as with many physical activities, the failure to commit fully to the appropriate motions to execute what you are trying to do is the reason for lack of excellence.  To put it another way, when people start skiing they tend to lean back...the reason is, they feel like they are going to fall forward. Steep inclines they also tend to lean back even though they should be neutral to ensure edge engagement.  Professional racers who know what has to be done to win, if they start to get scarred, they lose their competitive edge...hesitation to fully commit can mean races, limbs, or lives lost. 

 

I know I have experienced this myself in BMX when I was younger and now when skiing...I know what has to be done, I read what the pros write and watch the races and the ski p0rn, but fear is more powerful than my desire to execute the proper movements..due to lack of experience; we are afraid of the unknown...so the conflict is: do I push it and risk what I perceive to be more dangerous and feels unnatural, or do I follow the coaches/trainers and mimic the pros and do exactly what they say and do and hope it all goes well...it probably would, the few times I have it has...but self preservation usually wins when attempting advanced movements.  Those brilliant break-throughs we all have once in a while when skiing are those times that we all of a sudden get past that fear that is holding back our progression.

 

So if a helmet makes you ski faster because you are less fearful to ski the "right" way, then I think it all balances out.   I don't think I could feel comfortable skiing at the speeds I like to without a helmet...I think that if I were to try, the perception that I am more exposed to injury would make me hesitate to execute the proper motions when situations arise.


Edited by Richie-Rich - 5/25/2009 at 07:53 am GMT
post #75 of 75
Thread Starter 

Richie----deep insight.    Agree.

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