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What are race coaches teaching? - Page 3

post #61 of 157
Did you ever watch the Penn&Teller episide about polling statistics? If you ask the right questions, they will say anything you want. Rick could probably poll the same people and get the opposite answers. You could be doing this without even meaning to,
post #62 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
Did you ever watch the Penn&Teller episide about polling statistics? If you ask the right questions, they will say anything you want. Rick could probably poll the same people and get the opposite answers. You could be doing this without even meaning to,

But I'm not not running a poll and I have the time to chat with these people about what they are doing, how, and why. For example, some coaches talk about pivots and stivots mainly as a corrective measure but they don't train for those movements. That type of input comes from talking rather than polling.

Also, I'm very clear on asking about any type of ski redirection the athletes use in the course because pivot doesn't seem to have a universally agreed upon definition.
post #63 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Yeah, Max, I didn't really think it was fair either; thus why I included the laugh face with my post,,, to let you know I wasn't really serious. But ya know, it's VS's $1000, so who cares. Consider it a training day, and I"ll happily buy the drinks afterwards.

As to HH and I, yes, that would be interesting indeed.
I smell a chinese downhill in the works. Put me down for the $1000 bet too.
post #64 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Interesting that Sailer received an award named for Tom Reynolds. Those are the two best coaches I ever worked with.
post #65 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Cochran in his interview

c) On average how many stivots do you use in a GS course?

"Some courses it can be almost all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"


d) What is the range of number of stivots that you have used in a GS course (0-3, 0-5, etc)

"Say 50 turns in a gs, so probably some races I'll use maybe 30.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"


f) What is the range of number of stivots that you have used in a SL course (0-3, 0-5, etc)

"Same as GS"


g) What free skiing & gate drills have you found helpful to learn the stivot technique?

"Just a tight turny steep course is all you need. Or just a steep pitch to free ski on for that matter.
I'll fill in here a little bit for Jimmy. Obviously, there's a lot of pivoting/stivoting going on in WC level racing. He states that some races require a pivot in almost every turn. And the video of Ligety and Bourque kindly posted by SkierScott a page back in this thread show examples of courses that require pivots in the majority of the turns.

From a racing standpoint, the skier who can take the straightest line, and then pivot into a clean carve while dumping the least amount of speed will be fastest through that turn. It's really a simple formula. The difficult part is developing the skills required to execute it.

So the question here is how to improve your ability to do it. Jimmy suggests simply training gates or freeskiing on a pitch. Yep, that's the obvious good way to do it. But there's much more to it than that. Put an average recreational skier in one of those courses and tell him to practice pivoting, and he/she could be floundering there for the rest of their life. You need to first develop fundamental skills. That's the big secret here. These WC guys didn't get as good as they are at pivoting by focusing solely on pivoting. They've spent a lifetime training and developing their fundamental skill package, and it is reflected in their abilities to do what they do on skis, at the level they do it.

It doesn't matter if you're talking about how well they carve, or how well they pivot,,, it's all comes back to the fundamental skill work they've done. Balance, and the ability to perform flawlessly in any state of balance. Edging, and the ability to roll into a turn ultra clean, carve at any edge angle, steer to any degree desired, blend to any recipe required, manipulate the skis in every conceivable manner. Transitions, and how to do and use an assortment to fill any need or desire. These are the things racers work on all the time. Even if the coaches and racers don't think they are working on pivoting skills, every minute of working on these fundamental skills improves their pivoting, just as it improves every other element of their ability to perform on skis. It's just a matter of taking those fundamental skills, applying them to a pivot, and letting them work their magic in figuring out how to adapt and do what needs to be done to achieve a good result.

This is where Jimmy is coming from with his simple statement, "just find a pitch". He's saying throw yourself into the situation, and let the skills you already have blend, adapt, and figure it out. The missing message in his response is that the more you work on the fundamental skills of the sport, the better the outcome of this "dive in and learn to swim" strategy will be.

Same holds true for the recreational skier. The pivot is a technique that has plenty of application in the recreational skiing world too, but the best way to learn to do it well is to work on developing your fundamental skills from the ground floor up. Work on your balance. Expand your steering skills. Get more comfortable with doing different things on your skis,,, skiing in different ways,,, using different transitions,,, different states of balance,,, different amounts and types of angulation/rotation/flexion-extension. Learning an outward drifting of the tails at the beginning of a turn is just a part of that broad scoped skill development process.

It's important to look at the big picture with this. Pivoting is not an Island unto itself. It's just a single piece in the puzzle that when put together reveals an impressive picture of great skiing.
post #66 of 157
HEY,,, READ THIS !!

Sorry for yelling. I just wanted to say to the readers of the thread who may be skimming, looking for something of value to take out of it: PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO CAREFULLY READ MY POST #65 ABOVE AND THINK ABOUT WHAT I'M SAYING IN IT.

It's a bit long, and I know sometimes people will skip over those. But I can't express how important what I'm telling you in there is.
post #67 of 157
Exactly! Build a solid foundation first, then go for greatness. I can't tell you how many people think they are past the point of working on all of the simple basics. They let their ego get in the way of building an even stronger set of basic skills. Said another way, Their lack of discipline inhibits their chance to become a better skier.

A few years ago a guy named Tomba rented Loveland Valley for fall practice. A few years later, the Austrians and American world cuppers like Bode, and Hermann, Benni, did so as well. Watching them practice what I saw was a strong focus on the basic skills, not a lot of exotic high end maneuvers. Slow, deliberate, exact execution and the discipline to practice when the rest of us would have long since gone off to just free ski.
That formula of working on all of the basics has produced a lot of crytal globe winners. Wanna join that group Max? Practice it all, and do it until you can't do it anymore. Then go out and do it again tomorrow and the next day, and the day after that. Don't overlook any skill set, or maneuver, you/we need them all to ski at our best.
post #68 of 157
Thread Starter 
Rick, we can see that you are one of the coaches that trains his athletes in pivoting, stivoting, steering, etc. Cool, we get it. But its clearly not the only approach (and quite possibly not the most common approach for race coaches).
post #69 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
HEY,,, READ THIS !!

Sorry for yelling.

Why apologize at the start of the post? Just don't yell, and no apology will be needed.

Volume , font, and color do nothing to improve content.
post #70 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Rick, we can see that you are one of the coaches that trains his athletes in pivoting, stivoting, steering, etc. Cool, we get it. But its clearly not the only approach (and quite possibly not the most common approach for race coaches).

Max, my post was not written for you. I know you're anti broad based skill development, we all get that too. My post was directed towards those who may reading this thread, and looking to extract things out of it to improve their overall skiing.

I'll repeat. A good pivot is just a result of a broad and well developed set of fundamental skiing skills; balance, edging, rotary, angulation, flexion/extension and transitions. All great skiing is born of high level competence in those skill areas.

If your "research" led you to believe that coaches don't work to promote development of broad fundamental skills, then something got lost in the interpretation of what they were telling you. I've never in my life met a coach who didn't to some degree believe in and promote this common formula for success. USSA and the National level coaches promote it heavily.
post #71 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
Volume , font, and color do nothing to improve content.
My sentiments exactly.
post #72 of 157
Thread Starter 
Rick, I suspect you put more importance on rotary as a skill that needs to be worked and trained then many other coaches do.
post #73 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Hood report -

Another 2 coaches and a dozen or so athletes. Same set of questions as earlier which produced similar answers.

I did speak with an 11 year old racer that had a junior Olympics jacket on. Based on this technical knowledge I'm guessing the kid can ski. He was the only one I spoke with during the day that had trained a pivot and stivot movement.

Here are a few that I spoke with which should help give a feel for the level of skiers up at Hood:

Award winning coach Erich Sailer

A bunch of high level racers attending Erich's camp.

FIS racer (age 19) - one of the best SL skiers I have seen in person.

J1/J2 racers out of Squaw Valley (program that Julia Mancus and Daron Rhalves skied in).
11 year olds are not eligible for JO's. they can ski in the Buddy Werner championships and they can ski in J4 festival which is held as a "pre-Race " at JO's but the J4's don't race against the Juniors. JO's start at J3 (13) and up and they can't even call them Junior Olympics anymore i believe the offical Olympics ORG. got their nose out of joint!
post #74 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
My sentiments exactly.
rick, just to ice the fact that pivot and redirection are definetly learned skills, do you remember the Gs Bode won by skidding the top of every other turn.

when he was interviewed about it later he mentioned TJ Lannig went out to practicce it after that race, Bode's comment was he attempted it, but it was painful to watch!
I'll try to find the interview.

Here it is.

Notice contrary to your post, "the slide" Bode calls it (not just pivot but drift is for speed control and he intentionally kills speed) if there are turns Bode can't make at speed then basically there is no one who can. so yes they dump speed and maybe more then other racers to keep a high line below the gate which allow him to make it up and more on the other side.

http://www.skiracing.com/index.php?o...05&Ite mid=34
post #75 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Probably wearing his older brother or sisters jacket!
That could be or perhaps I got his age wrong.

Interesting about the JO's not being called Junior Olympics as I hear that phrase quite often.
post #76 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
That could be or perhaps I got his age wrong.

Interesting about the JO's not being called Junior Olympics as I hear that phrase quite often.
Max read this article. i think it pretty much nails the fact that redirection is a learned tactic and offensive speed control tactic not just a line adjuster. A pure pivot entry may not be a speed killer but the intentional drift definetly is!

http://www.skiracing.com/index.php?o...05&Ite mid=34

Well maybe they are back using it again. it was banned a couple of years ago but even then everyone called it JO's!
post #77 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
rick, just to ice the fact that pivot and redirection are definetly learned skills, do you remember the Gs Bode won by skidding the top of every other turn.

when he was interviewed about it later he mentioned the other members of the US team went out to practicce it after that race, Bode's comment was they attempted it, but it was not pretty. (In iother words, the other guys on the US tema struggled with the concept).

I'll try to find the interview.
I do remember that, A-man. If memory serves, he was arcing into his right turns, carrying his speed but getting low, then mega pivoting into his left turns to compensate for the extra low line. All done on purpose, as a tactical choice. His teamates didn't have the skill to be able to pivot that much, at that speed, and not dump heaps of time and lose the line.
post #78 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Rick, I suspect you put more importance on rotary as a skill that needs to be worked and trained then many other coaches do.
Actually, as I said above, USSA emphasizes focusing on rotary skills in their training suggestions. So it appears your suspicions are incorrect.
post #79 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Max read this article.
Thanks for digging up that interview. Its another good data point. Wish we had more tech interviews from WC racers and coaches to study.
post #80 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Actually, as I said above, USSA emphasizes focusing on rotary skills in their training suggestions. So it appears your suspicions are incorrect.
If you say so.

BTW, I'm just reporting what the coaches/racers up at Hood are working on and saying and my take is still the same, the majority of them are not focusing on rotary skills, if anything the opposite would be true.
post #81 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
So Max are you trying to say we should be striving to ski arc to arc with no redirecting of the skis ever?
Jasp, please stop making this thread about my opinion or your opinion. Read it and you'll see I haven't said any such thing. If you want to get into that tired debate start a new thread. This thread is just for talking about what race coaches are teaching. That's it, nothing more.
post #82 of 157
What conclusion do you draw from that Max? Exactly what is your point?
post #83 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Yeah, Max, I didn't really think it was fair either; thus why I included the laugh face with my post,,, to let you know I wasn't really serious. But ya know, it's VS's $1000, so who cares. Consider it a training day, and I"ll happily buy the drinks afterwards.

As to HH and I, yes, that would be interesting indeed.
Interesting indeed and I'd pay $$$ to watch, but unlikely to ever occur.

But for those of us whose imagination was stoked by this thought:, there are some numerical time comparisons already available to project the outcome. Rick participated in 21 NASTAR races over 4 days in the most recent (2007-2008) season with 20 time results and 1 DSQ.
http://nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename...&compid=483750

The Modern Ski Racing club team of which he was part placed extremely well btw and his time greatly helped the EpicSki Bear team too. Rick had 1 DSQ, 1 fantastic run w/ handicap 0.33 and 3 runs with upper single digit handicaps. His two slowest handicaps were 26.78 and 27.43. His average handicap for the completed runs was 14.1 and his sample deviation was 6.9.

In comparison, HH used to be a national pacesetter for NASTAR. One published data point is that he tied Spider Sabitch in the 1973 pacesetting calibration (handicap 3) : HH has said that his skiing continues to improve every year, so go figure...

Obviously both skiers are accomplished far beyond the measure of recreational skiers like most of us, but the skiing pantheon contains both mighty ski gods and lesser demigods who don't always get along, and the clock knows which is which.


post #84 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Max read this article. i think it pretty much nails the fact that redirection is a learned tactic and offensive speed control tactic not just a line adjuster. A pure pivot entry may not be a speed killer but the intentional drift definetly is!

http://www.skiracing.com/index.php?o...05&Ite mid=34
Just read that again and can't find any mention of ski redirection, pivoting, or anything to do with rotary. The focus seems to be on edge control.
post #85 of 157
Like I thought Max, you keep implying a conclusion but you won't come out and say it directly. Redirecting is a learned skill but you keep on insisting that no one teaches it.
post #86 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Just read that again and can't find any mention of ski redirection, pivoting, or anything to do with rotary. The focus seems to be on edge control.

so I can have a high edge angle and slide into the turn, killing some speed


Because I'm going so much slower because of that slide I'm able to come in really direct and come out high and then arc the next turn again. Because I'm so high, I can arc really direct down the hill. It's a trick that works really hard at a place like Soelden, down the pitch, where everyone has to slide, because if you arc two turns in a row, you're going way too fast to make the next gate.

Guys do it on both sides. They end up sliding every turn down because it's really intimidating, that hill. It's icy and bumpy and you can't see anything. For me, it's nice. I can do at least one, and then the other. Mix it up a little bit!

S if he is arcing on one side the opposite (I do one then the other) is sliding on the other!

How much clearer can it be.

here it is in Park city

Notice it is his right ski (eft turn) as he mentioned in the article!
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...e-pc-gs-1.html

it is in simple turns side slipping across the hill instead of down it but at the top of the turn at 45 MPH.

of course release or partial release of your edges and then rengagement (I think cocran called it "float and sting" is what causes it, but it is a definite SLIDE!

One other issue to note: sowhere in one of these older threads, someone try to convince you that controlling speed was not part of racing. Actually the gates are all about speed control! with out them you could straight run and the piste and speed control would not be an issue. of course racing is about speed control! you don't get a time if you don't finish!!!!!

Well here it is right from Bode's mouth to your ears in this article!

I have basically two different turns. I have a clean turn and then I have a skidded turn. Or a speed-control turn. I could run clean again the next turn, but generally I would just be going too fast.

It's usually not the line necessarily, although the two are directly connected, if you have too much speed you go down the hill too far for how much across the hill you get. That's obviously line. Not making the next gate is line.

But it comes from having too much speed. The pitching that I do, I usually do on my right foot. It's sort of by design. I have a lot less edge on my right foot, and more edge on my left foot.
post #87 of 157
Thread Starter 
Atomicman, you just confirmed my observation above. No mention of rotary in anything you highlighted. Sliding would seem to be more of an edge control skill.
post #88 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Like I thought Max, you keep implying a conclusion but you won't come out and say it directly. Redirecting is a learned skill but you keep on insisting that no one teaches it.
I haven't implied anything, just reported what I've been told and have seen. When someone says that they teach redirection, pivoting, or stivoting I say so.

As far as redirection being a learned skill? I suppose you could argue that all racers learn how to redirect their skis simply by trying to ski a course arc to arc because some portion of those turns end up being redirected (pivoted or whatever other word you want to use to describe it).
post #89 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkierScott View Post
The Canadians seem to be teaching stivot / pivot as evidenced by the Rosee drill from the CSCF Husky Snow Stars Level 7 video.

Rosee Drill Video http://www.vivatexte.com/eprep/cscf/...6-CF71CBCC4EEB

CSCF Husky Snow Stars
Select Level 7
Scroll to bottom of page in Skill Duals section
Click on link SELECT APPROPRIATE DRILL FROM DVD. TEACH DRILL FREE SKIING
Click on Video filmstrip graphic on right side of screen

4:20-5:20 or move slider just past half way. Rosee drill (stivot type drill with pivot slide) go through 2 sets of corridor markers then pivot.


Rosee Drill Explanation www.vivatexte.com/eprep/cscf/husky/make_module.asp?module=E674ADDE-C623-466B-AB06-CF71CBCC4EEB

CSCF Husky Snow Stars
Select Level 7
Scroll to Technical Skills section
Click on link ROSEE DRILL (ADDENDUM)

or page 97 of Husky Snow Stars Technical Manual at www.snowpro.com/posts/cscf/e/20051215160711.pdf

Level 7 Technical Skills

ROSEE DRILL (ADDENDUM)

An excellent drill designed by Jamie Rosewarne for developing speed of separation or quickness of steering feet underneath the upper body.

Set with stubbies or brushes. Set a rectangle in the fall line 1m x 4m. Leave a space of 6- 8m in the fall line and then set another rectangle as above. Set at least 8 rectangles and spaces between them as above.

The skiers are to run straight through the rectangle and pivot the skis across the fall line and back again as fast as possible and run straight through the next rectangle.

The shorter the space between rectangles the more difficult the drill.

The aim is not to slow down. Maintain the same speed or speed up staying very centered over the skis. Any sitting back will make fast pivoting very difficult.

This drill was named after Jamie Rosewarne. He is a past president of the CSCF and currently sits on the CSCF Board of Directors and Technical Committee. His coaching credentials include Level 3 (CSCF & NCCP) Coaching Certification, Level 4 Instructor (CSIA) as well as eighteen seasons as Head Coach at Ottawa Ski Club. He was Interim Technical Director Alpine Ontario Alpin.
Thanks for posting this link!
I found that whole site very interesting. It sure looks like a fun program.

And that level 7 Rosee drill video clearly shows working on a rotary skill.
post #90 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post
Interesting indeed and I'd pay $$$ to watch, but unlikely to ever occur.

But for those of us whose imagination was stoked by this thought:, there are some numerical time comparisons already available to project the outcome. Rick participated in 21 NASTAR races over 4 days in the most recent (2007-2008) season with 20 time results and 1 DSQ.
http://nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename...&compid=483750

The Modern Ski Racing club team of which he was part placed extremely well btw and his time greatly helped the EpicSki Bear team too. Rick had 1 DSQ, 1 fantastic run w/ handicap 0.33 and 3 runs with upper single digit handicaps. His two slowest handicaps were 26.78 and 27.43. His average handicap for the completed runs was 14.1 and his sample deviation was 6.9.

In comparison, HH used to be a national pacesetter for NASTAR. One published data point is that he tied Spider Sabitch in the 1973 pacesetting calibration (handicap 3) : HH has said that his skiing continues to improve every year, so go figure...

Obviously both skiers are accomplished far beyond the measure of recreational skiers like most of us, but the skiing pantheon contains both mighty ski gods and lesser demigods who don't always get along, and the clock knows which is which.


Sharpedges, shame on you for nudging the feud.

Just for clarity in regard to my "stats", I raced one run for real this year, meaning on good skis and in a suit. The 0.33 run. That was for the sole purpose of helping the Epicski NASTAR team. I took one run and quit because I was afraid I was going to break under zero handicap and force the race to be re-scored.

The other runs you see there were taken at other races, while coaching my students who were participating in the race. I was fully clothed, on rock skis, carrying a backpack, carrying students coats, and running only to demo various things/drills skills I wanted the student to do,,, balance things, line adjustments, edging tasks,,, stuff like that. The DNF was a run I intentionally stopped to video my student after doing a demo the first half of the run. I told the starter I was going to do it so he could reset the clock as soon as I left and send the next racer.

Wow,,, I have a "sample deviation"? I didn't even know! : Hmmmm,,, although now that I think about it, I have had a few girl friends over the years who said,,,,,,,,

As far as HH,,, Spyder Sabitch is going waaaaaaaaaaaaay back. Does Harald race at all currently? We're gunna need more current results if the Bookies are going to be able to handicap this thing properly.


Your right,,, this will never happen. It would be entertaining though. Here's my suggestion; the Keystone downhill in Febuary. Been wanting to do that anyway. SkiRacer55, I'll need a coach.
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