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What are race coaches teaching? - Page 2

post #31 of 157

Stivot / pivot - Rosee drill video

The Canadians seem to be teaching stivot / pivot as evidenced by the Rosee drill from the CSCF Husky Snow Stars Level 7 video.

Rosee Drill Video http://www.vivatexte.com/eprep/cscf/...6-CF71CBCC4EEB

CSCF Husky Snow Stars
Select Level 7
Scroll to bottom of page in Skill Duals section
Click on link SELECT APPROPRIATE DRILL FROM DVD. TEACH DRILL FREE SKIING
Click on Video filmstrip graphic on right side of screen

4:20-5:20 or move slider just past half way. Rosee drill (stivot type drill with pivot slide) go through 2 sets of corridor markers then pivot.


Rosee Drill Explanation http://www.vivatexte.com/eprep/cscf/...6-CF71CBCC4EEB

CSCF Husky Snow Stars
Select Level 7
Scroll to Technical Skills section
Click on link ROSEE DRILL (ADDENDUM)

or page 97 of Husky Snow Stars Technical Manual at www.snowpro.com/posts/cscf/e/20051215160711.pdf

Level 7 Technical Skills

ROSEE DRILL (ADDENDUM)

An excellent drill designed by Jamie Rosewarne for developing speed of separation or quickness of steering feet underneath the upper body.

Set with stubbies or brushes. Set a rectangle in the fall line 1m x 4m. Leave a space of 6- 8m in the fall line and then set another rectangle as above. Set at least 8 rectangles and spaces between them as above.

The skiers are to run straight through the rectangle and pivot the skis across the fall line and back again as fast as possible and run straight through the next rectangle.

The shorter the space between rectangles the more difficult the drill.

The aim is not to slow down. Maintain the same speed or speed up staying very centered over the skis. Any sitting back will make fast pivoting very difficult.

This drill was named after Jamie Rosewarne. He is a past president of the CSCF and currently sits on the CSCF Board of Directors and Technical Committee. His coaching credentials include Level 3 (CSCF & NCCP) Coaching Certification, Level 4 Instructor (CSIA) as well as eighteen seasons as Head Coach at Ottawa Ski Club. He was Interim Technical Director Alpine Ontario Alpin.
post #32 of 157

Stivot / Pivot Entry Turn - USA / Canada / Jimmy Cochran

USA

2006 VARA Coaches Educational Seminar Notes (September 16, 2006 at Okemo resort, VT) http://www.njsra.org/images/VARA%201...%20Seminar.pdf

page 3 WC Tactics & Technique in Modern GS- Adam Chadbourne, formerly w/USSA Development Program

* “STIVOT” => rotating the ski tips ‘in’ on approach to a gate, sliding to check speed,then rotating tips back ‘out’ to direction of turn to lock skis in for the turn around the gate

* Basic turn shapes: Arching turn: tail follows tip throughout the turnNon arching turn: as in a ‘stivot’ or when tip is in a clean arc but tail swashes

* WC women generally do not ‘stivot’; reason is that their courses are generally flatter and it requires a tremendous amount of energy to execute, more than most women can provideo

* Showed WC video of Benny Raich performing a stivot; rotated across the fall line a full 90 before bringing tip back to fall line to make the turn (a must see)



National Development System Rocky Mountain/Central Regional Coaches Report by Rob Worrell USSA R/C Regional Coach http://www.centralussa.org/forms/mee...rtspring08.pdf

page 3 R/C Regional Coach Technical/Tactical Discussion Spring '08

2. Stivot vs.Carving
· Carving is still the primary goal of all World Cup skiers.

· Stivots are used for timing of where to hit the fall line on steep, ice courses.
Stivots are also used to gain back line. Stivots can be used on big turns to
travel a shorter distance, then creating strong pressure in the fall line, which
builds deflection towards the next gate.



CANADA

ACA Alpine Ontario Alpin Technical Presentation at Provincial Coaches’ Seminar Collingwood Ontario in Collingwood, September 29, 2007 by Pete Deisroth OST Women’s Head Coach http://www.alpineontario.ca/site/con...20Deisroth.pdf

pages 14-16
The Stivot = Steering + Pivoting

Stivot/Feather/Butter the Toast
The Stivot is a skill to maintain: it necessary maintain is
primarily used
– On extremely turny courses where pure arcs are virtually impossible
– On steep, icy terrain
– On awkward sections of a course where speed or direction control are necessary for safe negotiation

• A successful “Stivot” is performed over the center of the foot
• By maintaining balance over the center of the foot where the foot, the athlete has control of pressure is added
• If “Stivot” is a Stivot initiated from the ski tips (windshield wiper turns), pressure cannot be added until the athlete regains balance – which results in “late” pressure

See Dartfish File: “Bronwyn Sliding”



Alpine Events A Technical Discussion Focus-Giant Slalom at 2008 Coaches Summit by Paul Kristofic, Head Coach-Men’s Program Canadian Alpine Ski Team http://www.canski.org/webconcepteurc...Discussion.pdf

page 12 Trends and Specialized GS Skills

Correction tactics-still see the ever present “stivot”a combination of steering and pivoting-an acquired skill to not loose speed…IMPORTANT NOTE-this is a practiced skill but is used when there is a mistake in timing, line or general technique OR when the course setting dictates (only some of the most difficult WC’s we see this.. i.e. Alta Badia or Badklein Kircheim




JIMMY COCHRAN

Comments from NASTAR forum by Jimmy Cochran http://www.nastar.com/community/inde...showtopic=2276

Posts # 3, 5, 7

b) When should a stivot be used?

It seems that by cutting off the top of the turn the stivot allows for a lower, straighter, more direct line than a pure arc to arc turn. Is this only for cranker turns where pure arcs are virtually impossible, steep icy terrain, awkward sections of course where speed or direction control are required for or is it also used in other situations like recovering a lost line?

c) On average how many stivots do you use in a GS course?

"Some courses it can be almost all and others it is be none. Stivoting or not stivoting is a judgment that is made at the beginning of each turn. When I come into a turn I decide if a pure arc or a stivot is the best approach. A stivot is always safer though arcing the entire turn is always faster. So there's a compromise"

d) What is the range of number of stivots that you have used in a GS course (0-3, 0-5, etc)

"Say 50 turns in a gs, so probably some races I'll use maybe 30. Or none of course if the hill is easy."

e) On average how many stivots do you use in a SL course?

"depends entirely on the hill. Our last race in Zagreb I used probably 4. At the upcoming race in Kransjka Gora about one third of the hill calls for stivots"

f) What is the range of number of stivots that you have used in a SL course (0-3, 0-5, etc)

"Same as GS"

g) What free skiing & gate drills have you found helpful to learn the stivot technique?

"Just a tight turny steep course is all you need. Or just a steep pitch to free ski on for that matter. Personally I think it would be more rewarding to practice arcing turns in situation where stivoting is called for. That's how you really push yourself out of your comfort zone and hence improve."



5. How do you describe the stivot move? Do you feel that the stivot is more of an unpressured float or a steered pressured feather move? Also, did any of the various descriptions that I had mentioned above accurately capture the stivot move?

Were you doing a stivot in this Ron LeMaster photo sequence of yourself at Beaver Creek SL 2004? If not, how would you describe the move that you made in this sequence?

James Cochran - Beaver Creek SL, 2004, 1st run http://ronlemaster.com/images/latest...2004-sl-1.html

"I'd say in general there is very little direction change happening during a stivot. This implies that it is more of an unpressured float than a steered pressured feather. We call it the "float and sting"."

"This sequence is a good example of what my current focus is trying to combat. You can see that I'm in the air in the transition. While in the air I'm drifting both down and across the hill from the next gate. When I finally do touch down I have no choice but to point my skis directly back into the course (smoothly arcing a turn here would take way too long and cause my line to be way low in relation to the next gate). Because of this air time, I took a longer line than I could have, and I lost speed due to the braking action of my sideways traveling skis. This is an example of a recovery stivot."


(putterman @ Feb 26 2008, 11:10 PM)
At what level do you think us regular NASTARers should be considering the stivot? Is this something that seasoned pros use (for a reason), or is it something that should be in all of our arsenals?

"I think the better you get (and the more fearless you become) the less you will have to use a stivot. It's worth knowing how to do... as a way to get back on line (say you're really behind the tempo of a course, almost missing gates), or you find yourself racing on a really steep pitch where it's impossible to arc every turn cleanly. I think you'll find that if you resist the urge to stivot, you'll be faster."




STIVOT PHOTOS FROM RON LEMASTER

Bode Miller - Park City GS, 2003, 1st run http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2...e-pc-gs-1.html

Ted Ligety & Benni Raich - Alta Badia GS December 2007 2nd run "Skid with finesse to be fast" article from Ski Racing Magazine January 30, 2008 http://www.ronlemaster.com/articles/...6_TechTalk.pdf Ligety had the fastest 2nd run by 1.10 seconds.


STIVOT VIDEOS

WCSN video of Francois Bourque's 2007 World Cup GS run at Karnjska Gora, Slovenia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcvOYmK7cgA





Ted Ligety - Alta Badia GS December 2007 2nd run. Ligety had the fastest 2nd run by 1.10 seconds. http://youtube.com/watch?v=DGZxIbLqn-Q

post #33 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
For those of you who know the slope it is Lower Bull Run at Crystal Mt. (now called Lower Ferks) fairly difficult slope to freeski cleanly but put gates on it and look out!
that's actually one of my most favorite pitches at crystal for carving turns. Its steep enough to really carry your momentum through turn to turn in crossover, but you can't just "cruise" it, you have to ski it. But its also not quite steep enough that I feel I have to try to slow myself down. Very fun.
post #34 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
It also makes no sense to represent that whatever is happening @ Hood is somehow a litmus test for skiing in general. Too many disciplines exist to make over generalized statements about the virtues of one turn type.
This thread is more than what it happening at Hood. I specifically asked the coaches and racers if they were teaching/learning this to/from any of their racers/coaches at Hood or at home. However, I think what is happening at Hood over the course of the summer gives a decent glimpse into the direction that the teams are taking with their training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Max, there are many degrees of proficiency in regard to arc to arc skiing. Much to practice, and much to learn. I won't take the time and space to go into it, but just trust me. You've leaned it just recently, on groomed slopes, and a touch of it in the gates. You need to enter some races, get some times to compare to the fast guys. You'll then get a real life idea of the levels of carving proficiency that exist.
Rick, this isn't about me, my skiing, or what I've learned. I'm simply reporting what the coaches/racers at Hood are saying and working on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkierScott View Post
JIMMY COCHRAN

Comments from NASTAR forum by Jimmy Cochran www.nastar.com/community/index.php?showtopic=2276


g) What free skiing & gate drills have you found helpful to learn the stivot technique?

"Just a tight turny steep course is all you need. Or just a steep pitch to free ski on for that matter. Personally I think it would be more rewarding to practice arcing turns in situation where stivoting is called for. That's how you really push yourself out of your comfort zone and hence improve."
I find that to be a very interesting and enlightening comment that fits right in with what I'm hearing up at Hood.
post #35 of 157
Max, remember when your program swore up and down that pivoting didn't happen on the WC, except as a recovery from a mistake? I do. It appears that's not the party line anymore? Good choice. Kind of tough to keep up the "that's my story and I'm sticking to it" mantra in the face of the overwhelming obvious. Did you see Jimmy said some courses almost every turn requires a stivot? And did you watch Bourque's and Ted's runs, where it's the case?

So now the new party line is "well OK, you win, it's done, but you don't need to practice it"? Time to get real. Every skill needs to be practiced to be honed to a high level. EVERY ONE!

It's like what I was telling you about carving. I didn't use your skiing to pick on you, I used it to provide a reference point you could relate to. A person may be able to carve on a wide open groomer, but fall apart when trying to do it in a race course. It's a higher level of refinement of the same skill, and it needs to be focused on to improve it. That's what you were seeing at hood.

It's no different with pivoting. Anyone can throw their skis sideways,,, yep, that's true. It's a lower skill level way of turning, and job one is providing beginner skiers other alternatives. But that beginner level tail tossing isn't even remotely related to what Ted and Francois are doing in those videos. It has to be focused on and practiced to move toward that level of execution. You have no idea how difficult it is to do that transition well, at that level.

Don't worry, Max. It took you guys a few years to come around and agree with the rest of the world that pivoting is even an intentional transition on the WC. Give it a few more years. You'll catch up again with the idea that any skill requires practice to improve.
post #36 of 157
What are coaches teaching?
Everything is built arround skiing in the gates and since carving in the gates is the biggest challenge that is what is being drilled by coaches where I ski. Skills like stivot are not anything national level and WC coaches want club coaches to teach kids. They want them pure carving biassed.

In race courses there are gates that cannot be carved but usually the best at carving in the gates are the quickest down. The less you skidd the quicker you are. However, there has been a request from our national racing assosiation that club coaches should teach kids to ski outside the gates in different terrain and to learn how to jump. Jumping is a skill easily lost with todays carivng skis.
post #37 of 157
tdk6, seeing this thread is not in the racing forum, what do you think the recreational skier reading it can take away from it to benefit thier own skiing? Sounds like you guys have a push currently to get out of the gates and spend more time freeskiing and building a broader skill base. We've been doing the same thing for quite a while now. Do you think broadening the base would be a good message for the recreational skier too?
post #38 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
tdk6, seeing this thread is not in the racing forum, what do you think the recreational skier reading it can take away from it to benefit thier own skiing? Sounds like you guys have a push currently to get out of the gates and spend more time freeskiing and building a broader skill base. We've been doing the same thing for quite a while now. Do you think broadening the base would be a good message for the recreational skier too?
Yes, exactly. Broder base. Unweighting has been neglected. It bleeds over into rebound which bleeds over into down-unweighting that bleeds over onto retraction transitions that bleed over to "OPTIONS" !
post #39 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Max, remember when your program swore up and down that pivoting didn't happen on the WC, except as a recovery from a mistake? I do. It appears that's not the party line anymore? Good choice.

...

Huh? Why are you turning this into a PMTS thing and how the heck did you get an idea like that from this thread? Anyway, if you'd refrain from turning everything into a you vs PMTS thing these threads would stay on track an be more civil.

Once again, this thread isn't about anything but what race coaches are teaching. There are some excellent data points presented by others and then what I've seen/heard at Hood.
post #40 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Max, remember when your program swore up and down that pivoting didn't happen on the WC, except as a recovery from a mistake? I do. It appears that's not the party line anymore? Good choice. Kind of tough to keep up the "that's my story and I'm sticking to it" mantra in the face of the overwhelming obvious. Did you see Jimmy said some courses almost every turn requires a stivot? And did you watch Bourque's and Ted's runs, where it's the case?

So now the new party line is "well OK, you win, it's done, but you don't need to practice it"? Time to get real. Every skill needs to be practiced to be honed to a high level. EVERY ONE!

It's like what I was telling you about carving. I didn't use your skiing to pick on you, I used it to provide a reference point you could relate to. A person may be able to carve on a wide open groomer, but fall apart when trying to do it in a race course. It's a higher level of refinement of the same skill, and it needs to be focused on to improve it. That's what you were seeing at hood.

It's no different with pivoting. Anyone can throw their skis sideways,,, yep, that's true. It's a lower skill level way of turning, and job one is providing beginner skiers other alternatives. But that beginner level tail tossing isn't even remotely related to what Ted and Francois are doing in those videos. It has to be focused on and practiced to move toward that level of execution. You have no idea how difficult it is to do that transition well, at that level.

Don't worry, Max. It took you guys a few years to come around and agree with the rest of the world that pivoting is even an intentional transition on the WC. Give it a few more years. You'll catch up again with the idea that any skill requires practice to improve.
To me this sounds exactly how Harb described these types of moves:

"I'd say in general there is very little direction change happening during a stivot. This implies that it is more of an unpressured float than a steered pressured feather. We call it the "float and sting".

I also personally prefer my analysis and coaching fro those that can actually make the moves.
post #41 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

It's like what I was telling you about carving. I didn't use your skiing to pick on you, I used it to provide a reference point you could relate to. A person may be able to carve on a wide open groomer, but fall apart when trying to do it in a race course. It's a higher level of refinement of the same skill, and it needs to be focused on to improve it. That's what you were seeing at hood.
I have a $1,000.00 USD that says Max takes you in a GS course.
post #42 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
What are coaches teaching?
Everything is built arround skiing in the gates and since carving in the gates is the biggest challenge that is what is being drilled by coaches where I ski. Skills like stivot are not anything national level and WC coaches want club coaches to teach kids. They want them pure carving biassed.

In race courses there are gates that cannot be carved but usually the best at carving in the gates are the quickest down. The less you skidd the quicker you are. However, there has been a request from our national racing assosiation that club coaches should teach kids to ski outside the gates in different terrain and to learn how to jump. Jumping is a skill easily lost with todays carivng skis.
The straightest carved line will be the fastest line through the course.
Next best, a more rounded carved line. The skidded line will be slowest.

However, there are tactical conditions which can dictate that a bit of pivoting and a skidded turn might be needed through some gates to recover a line (since a decent clean finish is usually better than a blowout). Also, developing athletes won't always have the strength to hold the best carved line that they are seeking. These are reasons why pivoting as a skill still has a place in a race coaching environment.

Tactical adaptation, along with strength and agility considerations also make this a useful skill for GP skiers. This gives you an indication of why the CSIA includes pivoting as one of the five fundamental skills of their technical model. (As an aside -- in the CSCF world these days, it's okay to use the "P" word sometimes...)
post #43 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Once again, this thread isn't about anything but what race coaches are teaching. There are some excellent data points presented by others and then what I've seen/heard at Hood.
Max, do you think your "reported" findings have anything to say about how recreational skiers should be taught to ski? If not, what's your thread doing here? Why is it not in the racing forum?
post #44 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
I have a $1,000.00 USD that says Max takes you in a GS course.
Now this could be interesting. What'ya say Max, you in?
post #45 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
that's actually one of my most favorite pitches at crystal for carving turns. Its steep enough to really carry your momentum through turn to turn in crossover, but you can't just "cruise" it, you have to ski it. But its also not quite steep enough that I feel I have to try to slow myself down. Very fun.
One of my faves too! BUT

Put gates: on it some gnarly ruts and washboard skid grooves off line and it's an entirely different ball game:
post #46 of 157

Interesting stuff...

...another data point, sort of. At a presentation in Boulder a couple of years ago, LeMaster talked about a topic from The Skier's Edge, which is the whole idea of the initial steering angle. The idea of which is that you can only ski purely arc to arc in the flatter sections with gates not very offset in speed events. Otherwise, you have to steer the ski to the effective steering angle, which is the point at which the sidecut of the ski will allow you to effectively carve that part of the turn and maintain a good line. I know, everything that comes of out Ron's mouth isn't necessarily gospel, but it usually makes sense to me, and works on the hill, which is kind of my truth serum.

One of my teammates and I had the opportunity to ski with Tony Sears last fall, which was great. Tony is an ex US teamer whom I've known for a long time who now does clinics for PSIA RM. He spent a bunch of time working with us on what he calls the "lost art of steering." The idea being that if you're light and steering the ski at the top of the turn (and out through the exit) you can stay closer to the fall line, have less pressure on the ski when you're outside the carving phase...and therefore potentially carry more speed, because you're lighter, and have more tactical options, because you're not hard coding yourself into a too early carve that may put you tactically off line, at which point you have to break off the rail in mid turn and start over, a bad thing.

It's very much like a concept that Thor Kallerud wrote up back in about 1989 for the USSA coaches mag which talked about "pivot/carve/pivot" where the important thing was to absolutely separate the pivoting and carving sections...it's when you moosh them together that things don't go so well. I. E., you're sort of pivoting...but you're still hanging on your old edges. And then you're sort of carving...but you're still trying to pivot. All I can say is that it worked for me. I felt a lot lighter, more balanced, and more able to pick a good line at the top of the turn. I felt that once I got the carve going, it was a lot more positive because I was much closer to the fall line. And when I exited the turn, I did so much more cleanly, in better balance, and in better tactical position for the next turn. Most important, I started skiing a lot cleaner, tactically better, and most important, faster, in full length GS.

At his fall pitch last year, Ron was talking about his upcoming update to The Skier's Edge. And when I talked to Tony, he was working with Ron, and was going to be Ron's demo skier for the update...something I know happened, because I was at Eldora the day they went up for a photo session. Guess what they were focusing on? Watch this space...
post #47 of 157
Max, The title of this thread was covered in the first part of the original post. Here's what they're teaching.
Beyond that the follow up questions about teaching redirecting, or pivoting the skis say they don't teach it. Not that it isn't used, or appropriate in specific situations. Like other maneuvers (carving included) it can be overemphasized to the point that you use it in inappropriate situations. That is exactly what I was getting at earlier about solving the tactical and strategic puzzle presented in a race course. If the solution includes using a redirection or skivot/pivot and you don't own the move well enough to use it in a race course, chances are you will not perform it very well. I'm not surprised to read your opinion that it is a bad move but considering the fact that even the top tier of the WC skiers use it says it has a valid application and should be practiced.
In the realm of rec skiers, especially beginners, it is important that they are exposed to all of the skills. It is also important to teach when a maneuver is appropriate. Carve a two meter turn going under a quarter mile an hour. Not an incomplete thirty or fourty degree arc, a full 180 degree turn. It's not going to happen. At that level it would be easier to say definitively that they instictively know how to do things and guess what? It is a learned response not an instictive movement. Which in my mind says it needs to be learned before a coach could say we don't feature it because everyone knows how to do it.
post #48 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55;921352It's very much like a concept that Thor Kallerud wrote up back in about 1989 for the USSA coaches mag which talked about "pivot/carve/pivot" where the important thing was to [I
absolutely[/i] separate the pivoting and carving sections...it's when you moosh them together that things don't go so well. I. E., you're sort of pivoting...but you're still hanging on your old edges. And then you're sort of carving...but you're still trying to pivot. All I can say is that it worked for me. I felt a lot lighter, more balanced, and more able to pick a good line at the top of the turn. I felt that once I got the carve going, it was a lot more positive because I was much closer to the fall line. And when I exited the turn, I did so much more cleanly, in better balance, and in better tactical position for the next turn. Most important, I started skiing a lot cleaner, tactically better, and most important, faster, in full length GS.
I had that article posted on the training room wall for the kids to read back then. Same concept I've been trying to explain here for a few years now. Pivot light, equates to minimal speed dumping,,, then get into the carve as cleanly as you can and finish the turn. Works the same in recreational skiing too, but it's a pretty skill intensive technique. Better have the whole package (balance, fine edge control, etc) faily well developed.

Fore the masses (non racers):
To tone things down, add a bit of post pivot pressured drift to dump a bit of speed, then go into the carve, or even into a narrow track steer. In recreational skiing the entire technique world is your option oyster.

- You can ski arc to arc
- You can pivot into a carve.
- You can pivot into a steer, wide track or narrow
- You can pivot, drift and dump a bit of speed, then feather into a carve
- You can pivot, dump, steer
- You can steer the top of the turn, and carve the bottom
- You can carve the top and steer the bottom
- You can steer the entire turn

Learn to do them all, learn to do them well,,, watch your skiing ability soar.
post #49 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
In the realm of rec skiers, especially beginners, it is important that they are exposed to all of the skills. It is also important to teach when a maneuver is appropriate.
As Mark Twain said, "the rumors of the death of rotary have been greatly exaggerated.
post #50 of 157
On a small hill without a lot of runout, or a slope that isn't very wide and possibly crowded I would be terrified to ski with low level skiers if they were taught to NOT steer!!!!!

Arc-to-arc skiing is probably responsible for a lot of collisions, people are somewhat stuck in the arc and are so out of touch with redirecting their skis that if something gets in the way they don't have the instinctive ability to avoid it using steering.
post #51 of 157

A1, outstanding stuff...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I had that article posted on the training room wall for the kids to read back then. Same concept I've been trying to explain here for a few years now. Pivot light, equates to minimal speed dumping,,, then get into the carve as cleanly as you can and finish the turn. Works the same in recreational skiing too, but it's a pretty skill intensive technique. Better have the whole package (balance, fine edge control, etc) faily well developed.

Fore the masses (non racers):
To tone things down, add a bit of post pivot pressured drift to dump a bit of speed, then go into the carve, or even into a narrow track steer. In recreational skiing the entire technique world is your option oyster.

- You can ski arc to arc
- You can pivot into a carve.
- You can pivot into a steer, wide track or narrow
- You can pivot, drift and dump a bit of speed, then feather into a carve
- You can pivot, dump, steer
- You can steer the top of the turn, and carve the bottom
- You can carve the top and steer the bottom
- You can steer the entire turn

Learn to do them all, learn to do them well,,, watch your skiing ability soar.
...I am gonna print out this post, and try all these variations as soon as I get back on snow and get into the groove in October. One of Tony Sears' big raps is that the Euros, such as Benni Raich, are so versatile that they can do all this stuff, so when you put gates in front of them, on something as gnarly as the Adelboden GS, it ain't no big thing...
post #52 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Max, do you think your "reported" findings have anything to say about how recreational skiers should be taught to ski? If not, what's your thread doing here? Why is it not in the racing forum?
Well, it dovetails with WTFH's original thread which is why I decided to put it here. Personally, I am a recreational skier that has learned based on a race inspired system, so yes, I think what race coaches teach does apply. But I also think each individual skier should decide for themselves if it applies or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Now this could be interesting. What'ya say Max, you in?
Nah, you'd win given all of your coaching and race experience. But if you can get to Hood it'd be fun to ski with you. If you are serious about jumping in a course I might able to arrange a SL set (I'm better at SL, although now that I have race stock GS skis and armor I'm getting some decent times in the GS courses).

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
I'm not surprised to read your opinion that it is a bad move
JASP, where did you read this? I'm just reporting what the coaches/racers are doing and saying up at Hood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
but considering the fact that even the top tier of the WC skiers use it says it has a valid application and should be practiced.
Jasp, are you sure about that last statement? According to an earlier post even Cochran said:

"Personally I think it would be more rewarding to practice arcing turns in situation where stivoting is called for. That's how you really push yourself out of your comfort zone and hence improve."

BTW, this meshes quite nicely with what I'm hearing from the coaches and racers at Hood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Which in my mind says it needs to be learned before a coach could say we don't feature it because everyone knows how to do it.
Regardless, I've asked very specific questions and the majority of coaches/racers are saying they don't teach/train a pivot type of turn.
post #53 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Now this could be interesting. What'ya say Max, you in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I'm was a race coach for 30 years. Full time. I designed and oversaw the training for a program that many years had in the neighborhood of 200 racers. And i personally coached the upper tier of that group.

Rick, I've been thinking about this and while its interesting I don't think its fair as I only got into skiing (in any serious way) 7 seasons ago and Masters racing 2 seasons ago. However, what about you racing HH? Seems like a race that would be exciting and fair.
post #54 of 157
I teach beginners all the time Max. Their is very little in skiing that is truely instinctive. It is almost all a learned response, which means they had to learn all of those manuevers. Are there appropriate circumstances for pivoting the skis? Heck even Cochran said so. which is why I find your hanging onto the never pivot the skis attitude so curious.
post #55 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Heck even Cochran said so. which is why I find your hanging onto the never pivot the skis attitude so curious.
This is what Cochran said,

"Personally I think it would be more rewarding to practice arcing turns in situation where stivoting is called for. That's how you really push yourself out of your comfort zone and hence improve."

Does that sound like he is advocating training a pivot? And, once again, where are you reading that I'm opining on pivoting?
post #56 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Rick, I've been thinking about this and while its interesting I don't think its fair as I only got into skiing (in any serious way) 7 seasons ago and Masters racing 2 seasons ago. However, what about you racing HH? Seems like a race that would be exciting and fair.
Yeah, Max, I didn't really think it was fair either; thus why I included the laugh face with my post,,, to let you know I wasn't really serious. But ya know, it's VS's $1000, so who cares. Consider it a training day, and I"ll happily buy the drinks afterwards.

As to HH and I, yes, that would be interesting indeed.
post #57 of 157
Just so long as VS1 is still gonna "do battle" with BWPA.
post #58 of 157
Bah! GS? SL? For a grand? There's only one way to decide this: Chinese Downhill!
post #59 of 157
With regards to not teaching pivots/stivots, I wonder if it has something to do with the calibre of the athletes.

Being a rather slow learner and perhaps of a lower skill level, I have noticed a very significant impairment to my carving ability when I have immediately switched back to arcing turns after an hour of two of trying to improve my sideways skiing in bumps. After a few runs I was back to normal, but the effect was noticeable. I can see where having skiers practice a move that doesn't have the edge locked in could result in a net negative effect on their overall skiing where arcing is the primary skill to have.
post #60 of 157
Thread Starter 
Hood report -

Another 2 coaches and a dozen or so athletes. Same set of questions as earlier which produced similar answers.

I did speak with an 11 year old racer that had a junior Olympics jacket on. Based on this technical knowledge I'm guessing the kid can ski. He was the only one I spoke with during the day that had trained a pivot and stivot movement.

Here are a few that I spoke with which should help give a feel for the level of skiers up at Hood:

Award winning coach Erich Sailer

A bunch of high level racers attending Erich's camp.

FIS racer (age 19) - one of the best SL skiers I have seen in person.

J1/J2 racers out of Squaw Valley (program that Julia Mancus and Daron Rhalves skied in).
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