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Is race instruction the "best" ski instruction? - Page 3

post #61 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
I'd like to ski like Andy Docken. He said something in Weems's DVD about how he's just focused on putting his feet where he wants them. That blew me away. I spent all season trying to understand what he meant.
It's a difficult concept.
post #62 of 89

Sooooo... is it 'race Training'?

Back to the question at hand:

'Is Race Training' the BEST ski instruction?'

Is ANYTHING the 'BEST'... ever? The answer is usually going to be NO to a question like that.

Think of it like this, are Ferraris the best cars? Not if you've got 4 kids and a dog!

Is beer the best beverage? Not if you're at mile 21 of a marathon.

Is Pizza the best food? Well, OK... but other stuff is really good also, and sometimes more appropriate.

Race Instruction is excellent... so is good ski instruction, depends on your goals and it depends on the skier. There is no one universal 'Best'.
post #63 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Back to the question at hand:

'Is Race Training' the BEST ski instruction?'

Is ANYTHING the 'BEST'... ever? The answer is usually going to be NO to a question like that.

Think of it like this, are Ferraris the best cars? Not if you've got 4 kids and a dog!

Is beer the best beverage? Not if you're at mile 21 of a marathon.

Is Pizza the best food? Well, OK... but other stuff is really good also, and sometimes more appropriate.

Race Instruction is excellent... so is good ski instruction, depends on your goals and it depends on the skier. There is no one universal 'Best'.




This is the best post.






post #64 of 89
Putting my feet where I want them is what I consider a "swing thought" -- a performance cue to consider before the performance, not a qualitative measure of the performance. It has been helpful in reducing the complexity to one simple thought.
post #65 of 89
At the risk of repeating something someone has already said, I see more mental discipline from racers/competetive skiers than rec skiers. Not just in the precision of their movements, but in their attitude about their performance. Ask a rec skier to spend the day doing a basic maneuver on boringly flat terrain and most choose to go play instead. Which isn't a bad thing per say but it points out how different their objectives can be.
Competition give us a stronger motivation to actively work on improving our performance. Winning may not be your ultimate goal but the competition itself creates the "need" to improve upon yesterday's performances.
Which is why IMO the coaching done in this environment isn't intrinsicly better, or worse than coaching in the typical ski school environment. It all depends on a student's motivation and their degree of investment in the process.
post #66 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Competition give us a stronger motivation to actively work on improving our performance. Winning may not be your ultimate goal but the competition itself creates the "need" to improve upon yesterday's performances.
Which is why IMO the coaching done in this environment isn't intrinsicly better, or worse than coaching in the typical ski school environment. It all depends on a student's motivation and their degree of investment in the process.
+1

And I totally agree with the motivation element: it takes a lot of motivation to do drills over and over again simply to learn one piece of the overall skiing puzzle. There's a lot of discipline involved: a willingness to forgo the playful aspect of things, to think about the little movements individually.

(Of course, some of the drills are a lot of fun and very playful.)

That's something I still notice, and credit to my racing days: analyzing movements, runs, technique, little bits here and there. If I digger on a landing, I try to think about why things went awry. I commit to memory the good stuff, and dissect it into basic motions. It's a second-nature thing.

And then there's the analytical approach to choosing lines and the like. It's something most people do in the bumps and trees, but racers often do such analysis constantly. Even seemingly spontaneous maneuvers are often planned - and those that aren't involve a lot of analysis - before, during and after (especially if there's a crash involved).

Let's put it this way: my first day on the hill every season is partially spent doing drills! That's the old racer mentality: get the good motions back in the mind from the start. I may look like a doofus doing 'em, but they pay off in the end.

Just my $0.02 - YMMV.
post #67 of 89

Eldora Masters Program

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post
...I didn't know your home hill was The Beast. My little sister lives right across the Deerfield and teaches at Mt. Snow. What you're looking for is a season-long Masters training program, such as the one we have at Eldora in Colorado. There's a bunch of these around, and since you're in New England, try the "Training Ops" link on this page:


http://www.nemasters.org/

Oh, BTW, your skis are coming...probably mid July...
I have suspected that race training would be the best way for me to take my free skiing to the next level and your posts have me thinking that my wife's idea to move to Boulder might not be so bad...do you have any other info on the Eldora program other than what I see at
http://www.eldora.com/lessons/mastersRacing.cfm

How does the bruising/injury tendancy compare to down low play in basketball? I don't mind a bit of banging, but have been trying to remind myself that I am not 18 since tearing my achilles a while back (and spending 3 months in a cast).

In addition to the body armour and other gear you mention in another post, what equipment should I be looking for this summer? I currently own 0 race skis and have Solomon x-wave 8 free (90 flex) boots that have a reasonable, but not race fit and are probably too soft for racing.

FWIW, although I consider myself a decent soft snow skier (including powder, crud & soft moguls), I can't carve on hard snow & ice and wish I was a bit quicker ski to ski at times (particularly hard, tight moguls). Got 60 days on snow last year which was double anything I have done since starting skiing about 30 years ago. I am 6' 3'' & 190 lbs. Feel free to PM me anything off topic from the OP.
post #68 of 89
Our race training program focuses on racing...and on powder, steeps, bumps and overall freeskiing.

To answer the question for our mountain - yes, race training is the Best training.
post #69 of 89
The other factor is what instructors are available. I know that at many areas really good instructors have moved out of regular instruction and into coaching or seasonal programs.
post #70 of 89
Good point VS! Customers who are looking for a season long program, or a multiple day immersion clinic, need to compare those programs head to head. Comparing either to a one day, or in some cases one hour lesson isn't realistic.
Give me five minutes and you'll get a rough sketch, because there simply isn't enough time for more detail. Nor is there enough time to do a lot of hands on practice. That is exactly why multi-day clinics came about in the first place.
post #71 of 89
If possible try to devote at least 3-5y of your skiing life to race coaching. It will boost your overall skill level immensly.
post #72 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
If possible try to devote at least 3-5y of your skiing life to race coaching. It will boost your overall skill level immensly.
post #73 of 89
having just started taking lessons a few years ago, then doing instructor exams and and now coaching young racers i am starting to see that solid week in week out coaching is really improving basic fundamentals much more than a ski school week in resort or some private lessons...

I think it is less to do with racing per se but more with the consistency of the coach/athlete relationship as well as the high level of MA, drills and personal development plans that the senior coaches provide.
post #74 of 89
Not to mention time-on-snow for both student and teaching, wot?

...oh, and level of commitment (and ability to commit), too! Let's face it: many people who love to ski cannot afford the time in their lives to dedicate to the kind of schedule inherent in such a program. As a result, they work to find the "next best thing", whether a camp, a week-long lesson, or whatever. Optimal to become the very best skier that they can? No. But perhaps the best option given the rest of their lives? Probably.
post #75 of 89
There is no question that time on snow is good. If you have are going to spend 8 days on snow per month will you be a better skier at the end of the season if you spend those 8 days per month:

(i) skiing for maximum vert (no coaching);
(ii) in a resort ski school;
(iii) in a park and pipe program;
(iv) in a bump program; or
(v) in a race program?
post #76 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
There is no question that time on snow is good. If you have are going to spend 8 days on snow per month will you be a better skier at the end of the season if you spend those 8 days per month:

(i) skiing for maximum vert (no coaching);
(ii) in a resort ski school;
(iii) in a park and pipe program;
(iv) in a bump program; or
(v) in a race program?
If you're all about improving and you're willing to commit your season to it, then the race program, no doubt.
post #77 of 89
I'm sure if being a better racer is your desired outcome then race training would be the best choice for becoming a better racer. Not so if your desire is to become a better Park and Pipe skier, or a better bumper. If those are your goals then you need to train in those disciplines, not on a race course. There is no single best discipline, or training program.
post #78 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
I'm sure if being a better racer is your desired outcome then race training would be the best choice for becoming a better racer. Not so if your desire is to become a better Park and Pipe skier, or a better bumper. If those are your goals then you need to train in those disciplines, not on a race course. There is no single best discipline, or training program.
Is one more likely to produce a better all around skier?
post #79 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
I'm sure if being a better racer is your desired outcome then race training would be the best choice for becoming a better racer. Not so if your desire is to become a better Park and Pipe skier, or a better bumper. If those are your goals then you need to train in those disciplines, not on a race course. There is no single best discipline, or training program.
Totally agree! most definitely, too much focus on any one discipline, including racing, will neglect other aspects that contribute to well rounded skiing.

***Edited***

Racing tends to be very focused on certain aspects of skiing to obtain a high degree of performance in those areas. As such they are probably not focusing enough on some other areas, unless they go out and find ways specifically to do that. I have seen great race oriented skiers suck ass in the bumps, so I know this is true.

however, all that being said, I do think that competitive related instruction is where you will be pushed to levels of performance that you will not get from a typical ski school instructor. This could be racing gates, competing in the bumps, freestyle, park and ride or whatever you are into...but its the serious competitive coaching that will push you to really nail sound skiing fundamentals in certain areas.

Classical race coaching has been around a long time and there are a lot of programs designed for this kind of focused attention to performance...and it just exceeds anything that can be obtained from a typical ski school.

but I agree, well rounded skiing needs to spread out and get other stuff...otherwise, the skier will not be truly well rounded.
post #80 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I have seen great race oriented skiers suck ass in the bumps, so I know this is true.
I've seen racers absolutely rip in bumps. Really like the racers bump skiing style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
That is my number one criticism of PMTS for example. Its a fabulous technique in many ways, but a little bit race focused and as such lacks emphasis in certain areas such as rotary.
Can you actually prove that an emphasis on rotary is needed?
post #81 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I've seen racers absolutely rip in bumps. Really like the racers bump skiing style.
I said SOME, not all. just because some racers are able to rip the bumps does not mean that they learned how to do so from their race training or clearly that they will all be able to rip in the bumps, because I have seen some that can't....and some that can. But the ones that can, in my estimation, expanded their training elsewhere.
post #82 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I said SOME, not all. just because some racers are able to rip the bumps does not mean that they learned how to do so from their race training or clearly that they will all be able to rip in the bumps, because I have seen some that can't....and some that can. But the ones that can, in my estimation, expanded their training elsewhere.
I know plenty of racers that rip bumps that only trained with their race coach. The style is definitely different than that of most bumpers, but its very effective.
post #83 of 89
good for you! rock on :
post #84 of 89
I'm not marketing for anyone. Drawing comparisons about different methodologies is not marketing.
post #85 of 89
Max we know your opinion about pivoting but the simple fact is that the femur articulating in the hip socket happens in three planes and all require the femural head to rotate relative to the socket. BTW if you're still skiing with Bob ask him about rotary.
post #86 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Check out this video of WC bumper Patrick Deenan. My understanding is he was a racer first (excellent fundamentals):


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
Thanks for video 501. Pat is really good, I used to watch him train at Silver Mt. and am really happy for him. He has really put in the work to become one of the best and still getting better. 2010 looking good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post
I would guess that Patrick Deenan could hold his own in any type of ski venue. In the recent Mt. Hood post there is a short clip of him training slowly in the bumps. I can see more of an athletes technique, vs. their athletesism out of the course. He is obviously a well rounded skier with exceptional fundamental skills. I used to think the same of Neslon Carmichael. I don't know his background, but I would guess that he did some racing in his youth as well.

Thanks for posting more of Deenan. Does anyone have more of him freeskiing?

JF
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post
Pretty flawless except the guy running him off the course. I like how he just dusts everyone after the first jump in the duels.
Thanks,
JF
Bob Barnes and I just spent close to two weeks with Patrick. As good of a skier he is, he is just as a good of a person. His father has raised a fine young man. Pat sr. (played by Craig Stadler in that video ) has hours of video and photos of all of Pat's skiing.

Bob has some good video that he took at Hood and Whistler, hopefully he will get some posted at some point. :
post #87 of 89
What was the question again, something about race coaching?
post #88 of 89
I did a little bit of editing to hopefully redirect this thread back to the original subject and away from the direction the deleted thread took. I hope you will accept this effort in the spirit intended to maintain a more positive conversation and avoid another endless rotary debate.
post #89 of 89
Edited out of respect to Cirquerider's efforts
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