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Skidding (for speed control) vs Pivoting - Page 3

post #61 of 84
Rusty, if the ski is pivoting around the middle, isn't there going to be some skidding? I see the femur pivoting at the hip in an arced turn, but I don't see the skis pivoting. Doesn't the round turn you describe have an element of skidding in it?
post #62 of 84
Quote:
Ric, if you have the time could you elaborate on the the distinction between the two?
The two being "rotation" and "rotary skill". Max it has to do the word "skill". Look up the word skill.

Maybe the best way to approach this is to step back from skiing and look at another sport or art. Take martial arts. Every student who initially walks in the door as a beginner knows how to kick. Unrefined gross movements of kicking. they don't know when they should kick, how to isolate the movement to the desired parts for greatest effect, or how to perform the movements in a way that doesn't distract from their other martial skills and their balance.

It is the same in skiing. Every skier can cause rotation, but can they blend it in, blend it out, control it, and isolate it to the desired parts of the body in a skllfull way so that it doesn't override, interfere, or distract from their other needed skills and balance? Can they blend it in a way that enhances their ski's performance and achieve the desired outcome

So we can say that being able to kick is not the same as being skillfull at kicking. The same goes for rotary in skiing. Being able to cause rotation is not the same as being skillfull as using rotary movements skillfully. To speed the movements up or down, or remove the movements entirely from the equation. Not to mention refining the movements to a point that we can isolate them to various parts of the body to efficiently achieve a desired effect. Hope that helps clarify.
post #63 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Rusty, if the ski is pivoting around the middle, isn't there going to be some skidding? I see the femur pivoting at the hip in an arced turn, but I don't see the skis pivoting. Doesn't the round turn you describe have an element of skidding in it?
Well I'm not Rusty but,,,, To a large degree it has to do with the angle of the axis relative to the snow. In other words how much edge angle and inclination in the body is present (intentionally leaving out angulation for the moment), determines how much skidding happens. On one end of the spectrum we have a pivot slip with so little edge angle (fairly perpendicular t othe snow) that the skis slip straight down the hill as they pivot back and forth. Now start blending in more edge as we correspondingly reduce the rotary "energy", and we will eventually get to the other end of the spectrum, a carved turn where we still have some femur rotation, with the axis still being in the center of the ski. Kinda simplified but,,,,
post #64 of 84
Per the rotary/rotation, I think counter-rotation is a rotary skill, but does necessarily involve rotation of the ski on the snow.

Likewise pivoting the femur in the hip does not mean the skis are pivoting on the snow. If in fact the skis are pivoted around the middle of the ski, it seems that some skidding is happening. Putting rotational force on a highly edged ski without actually causing the ski to pivot is another (more interesting) subject.
post #65 of 84
Very true. Another good example. I think this is where many fail to fully understand "rotary skills". They unknowingly or purposely equate rotary skills to the skis pivoting on the snow or ineffective body rotation. Which is exactly why we differentiate between rotation and rotary skills.

I always liked the skills concept because it equates our movements in the three anatomical planes of movement with the skillfull application of these movements we make in the context of skiing.
post #66 of 84
Thanks Rod. And Ric , can you send of that WD40 my way? I'm a little ...

This gets to the silliness of trying to over analyze generic definitions.

Let's say we have a skier making a perfectly round carved turn going downhill around a clock face. The turn starts at 6:00 with the skier traveling perfectly perpendicular to the fall line to the left and finishes at 12:00 traveling perfectly perpendicular to the fall line to the right. When the skiers' feet hit exactly 9:00, the tips of the skis are traveling to the right while the tails of the skis are still traveling to the left. Thus, we could say that skis are pivoting about the center of the ski. We don't think of this this way. We think the entire length of the ski as traveling on the same arc path. We think of the "bad" pivoting where the tips and/or tails deviate from the carved track. However, relative to the point underneath the feet, in a carved turn the skis are technically pivoting according to the dictionary definition of the word. Whether the skis skid or carve is irrelevant to the definition. Where we get in trouble here is when we change the semantics from the dictionary definition to a definition that implies some badness about pivoting or requires specification of the specific context in which we intend to use the term "pivot". That's where people start getting their panties in a bunch (like arguing that even a pencil thin carved track has some skidding in it).

Ric, with the WD40, has covered the more practical aspects of looking at this question. When we can look past how words can be twisted to make things look good or bad and get focused on the concepts that are trying to be conveyed, we can begin to create understanding. Unfortunately, on the Internet we need to spend a lot more time on semantics than we do on snow.
post #67 of 84
Pivoting, ok, but the axis of rotation would be perpendicular to the snow surface. I don't think the skis are pivoting in the plane of the skis, if you know what I mean. To me pivoting of the ski means the ski is turning around an axis that is perpendicular to the ski, not the snow.
post #68 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Are clouds?
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Skidding is no more good or bad than anything else when used properly or improperly in the right/wrong context.
Bingo.

Some people think the ugly the day,,, but they bear the nectar that makes our crops grow.
post #69 of 84
Ok, now there's a good point, but there's a reason I left that out. In a carved turn, when the ski is on edge one can argue that it's impossible to pivot the ski on the plane defined by the edge angle versus the plane defined by the snow angle. This is a legitimate, albeit subtle, distrinction. However, waiststeering and other similar concepts argue that it is possible to pivot the skis on this plane to create torque that can be used effectively for turns. Whether or not the skis actually rotate on this plane is also a legitimate, albeit subtle distinction. Dropping this level of complexity out of the discussion is something we try to do to keep the arguing down and help the newbies stay with us. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
post #70 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Maybe skidding isn't a word we should use. Does anyone here teach skidded turns? Steered, blended, brushed, scarved might be better words to use.
I teach steered turns, of which skidding is a part of. How much skidding is going on dictates the type of steered turn it is.

It's very much in line with your thought about skis not traveling the same direction they're pointing. The more the two directions diverge, the more skid is taking place, and the wider the track that will be left in the skiers wake. I call it the "skid angle".

Learning how to control the skid angle is a major part of refining steering and edge control skills. Typically, skiers fall short in their ability to maintain a consistent skid angle,,, or to change it at will, either from turn to turn, or within the context of a single turn,,, and especially in being able to reduce it to a minimal size. Wide and inconsistent skid angles tend to rule the day in the steering of most recreational skiers.
post #71 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
The two being "rotation" and "rotary skill". Max it has to do the word "skill". Look up the word skill.

Maybe the best way to approach this is to step back from skiing and look at another sport or art. Take martial arts. Every student who initially walks in the door as a beginner knows how to kick. Unrefined gross movements of kicking. they don't know when they should kick, how to isolate the movement to the desired parts for greatest effect, or how to perform the movements in a way that doesn't distract from their other martial skills and their balance.

It is the same in skiing. Every skier can cause rotation, but can they blend it in, blend it out, control it, and isolate it to the desired parts of the body in a skllfull way so that it doesn't override, interfere, or distract from their other needed skills and balance? Can they blend it in a way that enhances their ski's performance and achieve the desired outcome

So we can say that being able to kick is not the same as being skillfull at kicking. The same goes for rotary in skiing. Being able to cause rotation is not the same as being skillfull as using rotary movements skillfully. To speed the movements up or down, or remove the movements entirely from the equation. Not to mention refining the movements to a point that we can isolate them to various parts of the body to efficiently achieve a desired effect. Hope that helps clarify.
Excellent, RicB
post #72 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Ok, now there's a good point, but there's a reason I left that out. In a carved turn, when the ski is on edge one can argue that it's impossible to pivot the ski on the plane defined by the edge angle versus the plane defined by the snow angle. This is a legitimate, albeit subtle, distrinction. However, waiststeering and other similar concepts argue that it is possible to pivot the skis on this plane to create torque that can be used effectively for turns. Whether or not the skis actually rotate on this plane is also a legitimate, albeit subtle distinction. Dropping this level of complexity out of the discussion is something we try to do to keep the arguing down and help the newbies stay with us. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Damned good answer. Thanks.
post #73 of 84
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
if I spend more than 3 hours on skis I count it...
So what is your count of hiking to ski days?
post #74 of 84
+1 to Rusty, Ric and Rick...some excellent posts...
post #75 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
I know this is a complete thread hijack, but that's pretty amazing. A ski that's 204cm long and 150mm wide. Those dimensions would be right at home in Valdez in 2009. But that ski was "designed" almost four thousand years ago. Good for those Swedes.
Ummm, I have a feeling that the 2009 model is just a WEE bit softer than the originals....
post #76 of 84
More food for thought,,,,,,,

Does skidding slow you down? I would say most certainly it does. Indeed this is one powerful speed control mechanism used by many, including myself. Edging skills can be used in more than one way. You can use edging skills to obtain cleaner/faster arcs. You can use edging skills to obtain more braking through skidding. Edging skills are a big part of how a skier can on-demand, increase or decrease skidding/braking.

The question is, for all intensive purposes, as the skis get closer to zero edge angle, flat on the snow, the skidding becomes less and less significant and at some point it becomes insignificant. At that point, skid control is no longer what the skier has on their mind, but rather pivoting the skis is.

So do skis have to be skidding in order to pivot them?

If the skis are airborne while pivoting, is there skidding involved?

Coincidentally, how does a skier actually pivot skis while they are air borne without turning their femurs in the hip sockets?

How about if the skis are severely lightened but still touching the snow with a very close-to-flat-on-the-snow edge angle? Don't say technically "yes"; that is an obvious but unhelpful answer. Think in practical terms about how skiers should think about things as they ski in terms of their intentions. How much skidding/braking are those lightened-and-mostly-flat-on-the-snow skis going to provide in practical terms?

For all practical purposes, should we distinguish between when a ski is actually doing any meaningful "skidding" versus the times when its so close to flat and/or so light on the snow as to render the skidding/braking action as non-existent...or close enough to non-existent as to be ignored, or perhaps low enough that relative to the advantage of pivoting in that particular moment its a tolerable level of braking(when braking is not desired otherwise)??

Or would you folks rather debate about physics and semantics all summer long?
post #77 of 84
ps - I have left "steering" out of the previous food for thought, and the original poster did not ask about steering BTW. He asked about pivoting and skidding and how they relate to each other. Steering is, however, also a worthwhile topic.
post #78 of 84
In my opinion we always need to distinguish between outcomes. To do otherwise leads to confusion and mistaken identity. IMHO
post #79 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
More food for thought,,,,,,,

Does skidding slow you down? I would say most certainly it does. Indeed this is one powerful speed control mechanism used by many, including myself. Edging skills can be used in more than one way. You can use edging skills to obtain cleaner/faster arcs. You can use edging skills to obtain more braking through skidding. Edging skills are a big part of how a skier can on-demand, increase or decrease skidding/braking.
Right on, BTS.




Quote:
For all practical purposes, should we distinguish between when a ski is actually doing any meaningful "skidding" versus the times when its so close to flat and/or so light on the snow as to render the skidding/braking action as non-existent...or close enough to non-existent as to be ignored, or perhaps low enough that relative to the advantage of pivoting in that particular moment its a tolerable level of braking(when braking is not desired otherwise)??
Some of the reason I do. Different movements designed and done to achieve specific and unique outcomes,,, well,,, seems to me they ought to have a name. Saves a lot a splainin time. It's what names were made for.
post #80 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
ps - I have left "steering" out of the previous food for thought, and the original poster did not ask about steering BTW. He asked about pivoting and skidding and how they relate to each other. Steering is, however, also a worthwhile topic.

No need. He said he started this because he didn't know the definition of the words, and wanted to learn. Could be, steering was what he was really asking about, and didn't even know it.
post #81 of 84
true
post #82 of 84
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Could be, steering was what he was really asking about, and didn't even know it.
Do you mean to imply that pivoting and steering are the same?
post #83 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Do you mean to imply that pivoting and steering are the same?
Far as I can tell, some do consider them that same. That, I believe is what BTS was commenting in reference to. I do not consider them the same. And I don't know how those who don't differentiate between pressured rotary turning through a turn, and non pressured redirection of the skis rotary during the transition, focus in on each when needed. Like I believe BTS was suggesting, there's good reason have a means of separately identifying each.

Max, how do you guys do it? Or do you paint with a single "brush" too.
post #84 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Ric, thanks for taking the time to answer my question and provide plenty of detail without feeling the need to bash me for asking the question.

GarryZ, I'm sorry to dissapoint you but I have not point to make. I'm spending a bunch of time with racers and race coaches this summer (and some of them are Canadian) and felt that I needed to have a better understanding of what the word Pivot means. Its a word that isn't used much in my formal training (and never used in my race training contrary to Rick's continued assertion that racer's must use pivoting for all courses).

BigE, you can't see this message, but thanks for providing the CSIA view.

Ric, if you have the time could you elaborate on the the distinction between the two?

Interesting point (and I agree). Does that statement mesh with what the PSIA, CSIA, USSA, and CSCF teach? If not, can someone let me know where the differences are?

Note: to all that are avoiding making this a personal or PMTS issue...its much appreciated!

Max, sounds like a very fun way to spend your time this summer. Multi term/language usage can be difficult to pinpoint same meanings & differences in the little nuances. You will probably pick up a whole lot more of the nuances and usage by the end of Summer. Have fun.
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