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Slow Boats Don't Go Fast - Page 4

post #91 of 147
Same questions with the opportunity to visually assess the customer. Anyway Max, Mike's spot on with the amount of sites doing this already. Six hundred! Why would a six hundred and first be materially different than the ones that already exist? Especially if it needs to be non manufacturer specific generic information. Isn't the major complain with those six hundred that they are not specific enough?
You guys keep whining about someone not doing it for you. If it's that important to you, build one that satisfies all of your needs. Maybe then you'll understand why the rest of them are what they are...
post #92 of 147
From what I know of Eric, my money would be on him wanting psia to have a whole lot more exposure with the general skiing public than what is current. I think we need to look forward and not be shackled by our past, (no pun intended Eric ). We all know what psia has been up to now, the question is how can psia change to keep pace and become a driving force in the future?

Besides, low dues is nothing to brag about if we have to really stop and think about the dues are bringing us in return. Right now we are an education org. with weak education manuals and what some would argue are inconsistent certification results.

It is nice to see the influence our tiny little NRM div. has through it's strong talent.
post #93 of 147
Thread Starter 
I can't believe soem you get so excited that you continually veer off on this gear finder question The goal isn't to direct skiers to specific manufacturers or equipment. It's to educate in a general sense so that consumers would be armed with some guidelines. From what is posted by many PSIA members here on Epic this information would be of value to many pros as well.

I started this topic after reading some very uninformed nonsense in a thread ion teh equipment forum. The thread endd up with:

a 90 Lbs. 5'2' girld on a 175 cm 100+ waisted powder ski.

The absurdity of this led me to look for some real information on kids and ski equipment on the PSIA website. There was none. It occurred to me that this type of information would be of value not only to it's members but also to the public. In addition there would be added marketing value for PSIA. By reaching out and providing information to the public, PSIA would raise it's visibility and image with the public and this would have obvious benefit to it's members. Now I have limited experience in this area having only served as a CMO for 2 fortune 100 companies, 3 record companies and now working for one of the largest advertising holding companies in the world.

Putting together guides on equipment or an Insider's guide for Novice Skiers or Expert skiers or an ask the pro feature are ver evry simple to implement and cost basically nothing. Ther is nothing original about this. It's simple stuff that should ahve been executed already


Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
I find it comical that all of these on line bloggers start talking about marketing. .....Especially when they represent that they understand it better than the people who are not only in the business, they are one of the best success stories of the last few decades. Their web sites could easily support a sizing chart but they choose to have their staff do that. Why? Well it isn't because it is rocket science, it's because what happens when the on line do it yourselfer walks in and gets the gear they ordered but it is totally wrong for them? How does that affect the line when they need to void that transaction and start over.
I don't think that this is the only reason. Letting the staff select the sizes allows the staff to manage the stock. Something that is not always in teh customes interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Mike mentioned six hundred sites that already do this and it would seem none of them work well enough for this crowd.
600? I have yet to be sent ot one by you. Rentalskis.com and SSV.net are terrible. What's available through skinet is equally useless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Not a gear finder but a gear compass that would fit in PSIA's mission statement.

Non specific information that get people started in the proper direction. See the Beginner Forum
A FAQ that starts with recommendations that takes age,size,skill level,weight and considerations about terrain into an informed gear use decision.

Explain what different equipment performs like So they can understand the pros and cons of the different uses, shapes and flexes.

Offer links or suggestions for contacting groups that offer more detailed information. Ski manufacturers,Epic.TGR, SKI, SkiPress and Realskiers are some possibilities.While considering what kind of site you are sending them to.

Stick to the basics while offering good insight to what does what in the ski gear world
Exactly Gary. It's not hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
.

their real goal is always to undermine and denounce PSIA - not to discuss legitimate PSIA issues with integrity.

For those of you still responding seriously to Volklskier's newest complaint about PSIA you should realize that he and others of his Cult do this every summer. They find (or invent) some minor nuance with which to attack the value/credibility of PSIA and pretend it's a "real" issue for discussion. They do this multiple times each season in order to 'increase the negatives' against PSIA (their perceived competitor) and to promote their own organization in order to shore up sales of books and camps for their leader.

If Volklskier had any real interest in PSIA Improvement he would have sent PSIA a suggestion rather than just harping here in a thread about this presumed lack in PSIA........

And No Volkleskier, I'm not being 'defensive' about PSIA. Not in the least. I've just gotten tired of these manipulative threads and decided to 'out' you and your organization's never-ending marketing pattern for the benefit of the newer lurking readers (which is why I posted my 'outing' response so quickly). Since you're restricted by EpicSki from directly promoting your organization you instead rely on denouncing as many attributes of your perceived 'competitor' as possible. Oh, and feel free to wail away at me for outing you for it..


Again, there are plenty of sources for skiers (even newbies) to find info about ski selection. EpicSki is a great source for such information with many knowledgeable people ready to offer up suggestions to anyone who asks. I

PSIA is not in the business of suggesting equipment and it shouldn't be.

.ma

Are you ok? Seriously, because this is a rant that shows some severe signs of paranoia. What is my organization? What is my cult?

The reason I didn't send a suggestion to PSIA is because I have found that Epic Ski is a large community of PSIA members that actively engages in an exchange of ideas.

As for there being other sites with information, so what! Why does that preclude PSIA from being one of them? I ahve news for you many fo these sites including Epic have very poor information so there is a lot of misinformation that someone with little or no knowledge would be unable to sift out

Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Google thinks that skinet.com and wikipedia should top the list for skiing. My 2 cents is that PSIA does not need to better what these sites do. Along this line of thinking though is that PSIA should have done what Epic, Newschoolers and TGR are now. They did have a forum before these sites were big time, but they did not successfully manage the community.
Newschoolers is incredible. They have built a vibrant community. Although PSIA will never be in teh same league as these places, nor should they, There is a huge opportunity here for PSIA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
It's been a challenge to make "Ask a Pro" work in this and other environments. It's hard to get the top pros to do this for free, to respond quickly, to get them to get over their fear of Internet "flaming" and to get a steady stream of questions. It's my belief that we've either got to tweak and prove the concept here with lesser pros before we can upgrade it to top pros, or use the magazine model and pay both an editor and a pro.
The ask a pro feature should be part of the D teams responsibility. You want on the team, you have to do it. Also a lot of ASK the Pro can initally be in the form of a FAQ and questions could be screened to keep them of interest to a larger community.


Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
The executive director suggestion is a nice compliment, especially since we disagree so often. Unfortunately, I can't afford to work for PSIA. Further, it's my understanding that the Exec Dir job is THE management job not THE leadership job. I had high hopes when Ray Allard took the chairman's position on the Board of Directors. My suggestion is to keep an eye on Eric Sheckleton (the current VP). If it is possible to sneak in and make effective change, Eric's the man to do it.
I had a copy of the annual report but I can't find it now. Perhaps part of the problem is that the Exec. Dir. does not have a leadership role.

We may disagree on various isseus but that doesn't keep me from recognizing you as a smart person with a good understanding of many of the issues here. If life meant always dealing with people you agreed with then it would get boring pretty fast and there wouldn't be much innovation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post

Besides, low dues is nothing to brag about if we have to really stop and think about the dues are bringing us in return. Right now we are an education org. with weak education manuals and what some would argue are inconsistent certification results.
The org needs to start to look beyond the little space it has fenced off for it's self. Hiding behind the "educational mission" is not going to advance anything.
post #94 of 147
Did someone say the sky is falling?

Is the sport of skiing falling into demise?

Are beginners buying skis?

Is PSIA/AASI executing its mission? (Presumably it never signed on to do anything else.)

Is it fair to criticize the performance of an organization on criteria that are outside its stated mission?

Here's a thought (with homage to Dick Dorworth): you will pay for what you get. Everything costs something.

Are the members of PSIA/AASI unhappy with the current value proposition?

Is there a movement afoot, or is this thread merely the solitary spinning of a marketing man?
post #95 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
.........For those of you still responding seriously to Volklskier's newest complaint about PSIA you should realize that he and others of his Cult do this every summer. They find (or invent) some minor nuance with which to attack the value/credibility of PSIA and pretend it's a "real" issue for discussion. They do this multiple times each season in order to 'increase the negatives' against PSIA (their perceived competitor) and to promote their own organization in order to shore up sales of books and camps for their leader........
Since you brought it up, just thought I'd mention that Our Leader has extensive information in his books and websites about appropriate equipment for his system (which is REALLY good!!):
post #96 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
Did someone say the sky is falling?

Is the sport of skiing falling into demise?

Are beginners buying skis?

Is PSIA/AASI executing its mission? (Presumably it never signed on to do anything else.)

Is it fair to criticize the performance of an organization on criteria that are outside its stated mission?

Here's a thought (with homage to Dick Dorworth): you will pay for what you get. Everything costs something.

Are the members of PSIA/AASI unhappy with the current value proposition?

Is there a movement afoot, or is this thread merely the solitary spinning of a marketing man?
I see no marketing here. Generic advice is the topic of this discussion not a place to settle personal grudges that came about in different threads

Where's the marketing ? The OP has stated that steering toward particular manufacturers is not the intent of this discussion.

I think my suggestions are viable and needed without a lot of expense being generated. The work setting it up could be voluntary . Most of us are practically voluntary workers anyway so a little work on something like this isn't out of the norm for our business.

If this was started over the summer it would be presentable by fall

A specific gear finder is the domain of manufacturers .Teaching people about the uses and options of ski equipment is a part of ski instruction. PSIA should want to help it's membership serve the needs of the uninformed that stand before us looking for guidance

All that is needed is a FAQ and descriptions of equipment and their intended uses and options.
post #97 of 147
Like all things marketing, there’s a selective piece of reality leveraged for maximum advantage to the marketer. The lead-in was purposely phased with antagonistic tone to evoke a response. Mission accomplished.

A strong model that PSIA might want to consider, one that has its roots in a similar mission of education/credentialing, is the AMA. The AMA has some D2C (direct to consumer) objectives, but primarily it’s focused on “helping physicians help patients”. A novel concept that works quite well. The AMA makes basic information available to consumers to help them determine the proper medical expertise to seek, but does not take on the mission of instructing people in the intricate art/science of specific medical procedures, nor being “all things medicine”.

Physicians are independent businesspersons, or are employed by medical institutions, or both. Very much like snowsports instructors, although the entrepreneurial aspects of snowsport instruction is somewhat limited by convention and motivation of the instructors themselves. Meaning … land-use agreements affect independent practice of snowsports instruction, and many instructors have historically signed up not as professional business people, but for the free skiing and discounted equipment. Physicians, on the other hand are not so easily satiated. (Obviously I’m not suggesting there is an equal level of extended education and sacrifice for both professions.)

Without attempting to carry a flag for any side, I will say that if camps other than PSIA have all the answers, then those organizations would already be in control and running the industry. They aren’t. Despite other camps writing books, and fielding websites, the snow sports industry just plods along. The challenges before the snow sports industry are not simply the lack of information. Information doesn’t hurt, but it isn’t the panacea that will get the non-skiing public on skis or a snowboard. There are far bigger societal, financial, geographical, and other issues that impede snow sports growth than if a newbie knows how to pick a ski from his sofa.

As I stated before – not opposed to the added information being available, but its impact on the industry is not deserving of the disharmony between individual camps that exists in this thread - and many others.
post #98 of 147
guys.... why is it the job of the PSIA to tell people what type of kit to buy, is it because certain instructors are incapable of making recomendations to their clients if they get asked, even if the advice is go to this shop they really know their stuff

i know for a fact that BASI don't offer this type of information and i am pretty sure most of the other acreditaion boards don't either

the american board for certification in orthotics prosthetics and pedorthics certainly doesn't advise patients which orthotic or prosthetic device to buy, they leave that the the people on the ground ..the practitioners who they have provided credentials for


anyone else bored yet
post #99 of 147
CEM, do you remember when the Consumers Association (aka Which) went from being independent testers and reviewers to being sponsored?
The quality of their advice went downhill, as they focused more on what could be bought in John Lewis, rather than what is good/better. (although they are still a good guide)

I'd hate an organisation that is set up to teach people how to ski turned into something that told you what you should ski on.

The only option I would go for would be bland generic advice - for powder go for a fatter ski, for slalom go for one with more sidecut. No brand names, no model suggestions. It's supposed to be Professional Ski Instructors, not Professional Marketing Types. So, I strongly believe that the PSIA should stick to ski instruction, and avoid the marketing BS that some less professional businesses might choose.
post #100 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
Newschoolers is incredible. They have built a vibrant community. Although PSIA will never be in teh same league as these places, nor should they, There is a huge opportunity here for PSIA.

The ask a pro feature should be part of the D teams responsibility. You want on the team, you have to do it. Also a lot of ASK the Pro can initally be in the form of a FAQ and questions could be screened to keep them of interest to a larger community.


I had a copy of the annual report but I can't find it now. Perhaps part of the problem is that the Exec. Dir. does not have a leadership role.

We may disagree on various isseus but that doesn't keep me from recognizing you as a smart person with a good understanding of many of the issues here.

The org needs to start to look beyond the little space it has fenced off for it's self. Hiding behind the "educational mission" is not going to advance anything.
PSIA has treated forum technology as a checklist item (i.e. do it and the job is done). We don't understand communities and the ongoing commitment (and care and feeding) required for success. We also don't understand the opportunity to use forum technology to change "business as usual". A long time ago, the first forum demonstrated that PSIA understood that an opportunity was present. Since then we've been unable to execute to take full advantage of the opportunity.

Communication/Presentation skills are a big piece of the Demo Team candidate evaluation process. They are expected to spend a large amount of time authoring in various mediums as well as spending face time with the public. Ask a Pro could easily be added to the list of expectations. However, my experience on Epic and other sites tells me that the concept needs refinement before I could recommend this to PSIA.

As a 30K member org, PSIA needs to have someone driving the boat. It's like the big yacht owners hiring a full time captain. They tell him where they want to go and he gets them there and makes sure the toilets flush. I'm sure the exec dir does not just say "yes sir", but his day job is running the ship. In corporate America many boards are essentially consultants to the CEO, who really runs the company. In PSIA, it's my understanding that the exec dir position is more like a COO and the board of directors chairman/president is more like a CEO. PSIA may be a little different from corporate America, but it's not very different, many organizations work this way and it's a proven model.

You are going to make me blush. For the record, working hard, doing your homework, making an effort to listen and checking your work can make someone appear to be smart. Appearances can be deceiving.

PSIA does not hide behind the educational mission. The side activities can be hard to see because they are so small, so varied and so often a joint effort. The side activities of the demo team members can also be blurred as to whether or not they should "count". If a D teamer gets paid to consult for equipment companies, does it really matter if that's a "PSIA" activity or not? Do you think Slope Style came into being without PSIA involvement? Could we do better? Sure! Is it clear what we ought to do better? No. There's no shortage of good ideas - that's part of the problem. I'll offer up the American Dental Association as an example of an organization that has a good approach to serving their membership first and then the public from their web site.
post #101 of 147
Heishman's Hierarchy of equipment knowledge resources:

ski swaps - skier listens to the snake oil salesman and buy unknowingly
big boxes - skier listens to salesperson who used to work at McDonald's but stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.
Specialty shops - Skier gets some knowledgeable advise from salesman who actually skis and has some knowledge of equipment
Resort town shops - skier gets advice from guy who works at the ski shop to support his/her skiing addiction. This person can offer better hands on experience and is likely very knowledgable. May have demos to try.
Ski Rep - Most knowledgeable about his/her brand. will have demos to try first. Understandably biased toward brand A.
ski instructor - Level 3 and above should have a very strong understanding of ski design parameters and offer the best advice based on seeing you ski, your goals, your build, and assist in your equipment selection.
post #102 of 147
Can anyone find a link to a detailed and working beginners guide to skiing?
post #103 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB
Since you brought it up, just thought I'd mention that Our Leader has extensive information in his books and websites about appropriate equipment for his system (which is REALLY good!!):
AHhhh, there it is - - the obligatory Offering that is always injected somewhere in these surreptitious advertisements. Must admit, you fellows have this whole Tag-Team thing down. Of course, this is done hoping that onlooking Newbie Lurkers will send PMs asking you what it's all about - whereupon you'll be able to make your full scale Sales and Marketing Pitch to them via private reply which as you know is something not monitored nor regulated by EpicSki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Wouldn't I fall under the auspices of TTS, an equally ill-respected entity?
Heck no Rick... well ... at least not while you can be used as a weapon against someone else. Later on it will be another matter entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volklskier
Are you ok? Seriously, because this is a rant that shows some severe signs of paranoia. What is my organization? What is my cult?
Why, I'm fine! Thanks for asking . Nope, it's not paranoia when your own posting history clearly highlights a highly obvious and repetitious pattern. And Nope, I'll not supply the reference to your 'organization' because I would only be doing your marketing for you.

Out of curiosity, why did you post this topic in the "Ski Instruction and Coaching" forum? If anywhere the topic would seem to belong in the "Technique and Analysis" forum - unless of course your desired target audience is new skiers and the general public who might otherwise avoid that more contentious forum...


Sharpedges,

I see you're relatively new to posting on EpicSki (though may have a much longer Lurking experience). You've already put up some rather good posts and seem able to keep things in a moderate, thoughtful perspective so I'll just suggest that you ... wait a while.... It wont take long before you see the patterns long-timers see quickly and easily. (Of course, if you've already become deeply conditioned by over-exposure to that group then you'll be entirely unable to detect anything except the 'wrongness' present in everyone outside the group - and that would be a shame.)

My objections are not with the person of Volklskier nor Max_501 but rather with the unsavory tactics they employ to promote their group, their products, and that group's leader. These two fellows have put up good information, provided good insights, offered new and interesting ideas and supplied some good analysis from time to time.

I just despise their Snobbishly Sneering at all organizations not their own (and the people within them) as well as their creation of Strawman Arguments to assist in the discrediting of all others. I also have no use for their endless undermining of other 'systems' and the clever recruiting tactics they use on these forums to bring others into their camp. They have their own forum for such things with an environment full of Yes-Men to agree with them, so why come here with these topics except to decry outsiders and recruit new initiates?

Personally, I have no problem with Active Rotation in skiing nor have I any problem with people who wish to minimize Active Rotation in their technique. When I see an overabundance of Rotation in a given student I too teach them to reduce it. I also teach the Wedge (a minimalist Wedge at that) and I teach Parallel. No big. I even have my own concerns about what PSIA does and how they do it but my goals with regard to PSIA are constructive whereas their goals appear only to be destructive.

BTW - our ski season only ended a couple of weeks ago here so it's true that I may well be in some sort of withdrawal...

.ma

( PS: Heh, you're a fun guy Max. But Volklskier? ... not so much ... )
post #104 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEM View Post
guys.... why is it the job of the PSIA to tell people what type of kit to buy, is it because certain instructors are incapable of making recomendations to their clients if they get asked, even if the advice is go to this shop they really know their stuff

i know for a fact that BASI don't offer this type of information and i am pretty sure most of the other acreditaion boards don't either
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat View Post
CEM, do you remember when the Consumers Association (aka Which) went from being independent testers and reviewers to being sponsored?
The quality of their advice went downhill, as they focused more on what could be bought in John Lewis, rather than what is good/better. (although they are still a good guide)

I'd hate an organisation that is set up to teach people how to ski turned into something that told you what you should ski on.

It's supposed to be Professional Ski Instructors, not Professional Marketing Types. So, I strongly believe that the PSIA should stick to ski instruction, and avoid the marketing BS that some less professional businesses might choose.
I just want to commend both of you. To be able to come in at posts 98 and 99 and to contribute a unique perspective and to not rehash what has already been discussed or to take the thread off the topic is quite refreshing :
post #105 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
Why, I'm fine! Thanks for asking . Nope, it's not paranoia when your own posting history clearly highlights a highly obvious and repetitious pattern. And Nope, I'll not supply the reference to your 'organization' because I would only be doing your marketing for you.


My objections are not with the person of Volklskier nor Max_501 but rather with the unsavory tactics they employ to promote their group, their products, and that group's leader. These two fellows have put up good information, provided good insights, offered new and interesting ideas and supplied some good analysis from time to time.

I just despise their Snobbishly Sneering at all organizations not their own (and the people within them) as well as their creation of Strawman Arguments to assist in the discrediting of all others. I also have no use for their endless undermining of other 'systems' and the clever recruiting tactics they use on these forums to bring others into their camp. They have their own forum for such things with an environment full of Yes-Men to agree with them, so why come here with these topics except to decry outsiders and recruit new initiates?

Personally, I have no problem with Active Rotation in skiing nor have I any problem with people who wish to minimize Active Rotation in their technique. When I see an overabundance of Rotation in a given student I too teach them to reduce it. I also teach the Wedge (a minimalist Wedge at that) and I teach Parallel. No big. I even have my own concerns about what PSIA does and how they do it but my goals with regard to PSIA are constructive whereas their goals appear only to be destructive.

BTW - our ski season only ended a couple of weeks ago here so it's true that I may well be in some sort of withdrawal...

.ma

( PS: Heh, you're a fun guy Max. But Volklskier? ... not so much ... )
Seriously, what are you talking about? I currently only belong to two Ski organizations, PSIA and USSA. I also had a National Number in the NSPS. I have put my time into both and as a member of both I don't have to apologize for criticizing them. If you're talking about Harald Harb and PMTS then you are mistaken. I do not have any affiliation with them. My criticism of the emphasis on rotary movements goes back to Centerline. Way before Harb's books.

I'm not sure why you have dragged all of this other stuff into this topic. Perhaps there is an inferiority complex at work with the paranoia?
post #106 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
Since you brought it up, just thought I'd mention that Our Leader has extensive information in his books and websites about appropriate equipment for his system (which is REALLY good!!):
I missed this one when I posted about not seeing marketing. I hadn't refreshed the page and this post I hadn't seen. This is marketing ,to be sure, but it also isn't relevant to the discussion . Much like comments about other threads that were inserted into this conversation.

If Rusty had brought this question up would it have been received in this way ?
Rusty did ask for positive comments on this subject and there wasn't much of a response outside of mine.This is more a reaction to the OP and not a reasonable discussion. Too bad. The idea has merit.

Some generic information would be helpful to many people and would put PSIA in the position of being a fountain of knowledge to those unfamiliar with the organization First impressions always mean much to the impressionable. A teaching organization that overlooks the needs of it's clients might lose therm to another that doesn't.

Since this is an individual mission I hope instructors experiment with different equipment in their lessons in order to expose their students to new ideas and modern equipment. I use different skis to help explore the differences in multi week lessons and get quite a few questions about them when I do.
I think there is a need for more information that should be met and supported by the parent organization. If the national organization feels it is a regional issue then the ball should be picked up by them . Clinics and ski shop presentations have been suggested surely wouldn't hurt but something from the national organization online would work the best for all concerned
post #107 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
Newschoolers is incredible. They have built a vibrant community.
Ask the OP in that other thread to post the same question on NS. Then focus a webcam on yourself so I can watch you start to vibrate as the fat ski recommendations come in!!! Heck, why don't you post it up there yourself as a hypothetical!

I think VS1 (and much of PSIA) is in the dark ages wrt to equipment evolution and related technique evolution. Presumably the inverse relationship is true as well . But VS1 seems to have hit a deservedly raw nerve wrt PSIA. It is beyond me how an organization of its sort can avoid gathering such obvious "low hanging fruit". What is so hard about the concept of generating "pull" and preemptively reducing friction & frustration for prospective clients? Especially when a significant return can likely be produced "on the cheap". Look at the mess in that "600" links. Suppose a bit of education & expectation setting made 5% (or whatever more realistic number it might be) more clients really happy/excited after their first or second lesson? Heck, even 2%? What would that do to repeat rates? Filling classes? It goes on and on.

The irony, as noted above, is that I'm so far away from VS1 on the "specifics" front that I'm a material part of why he started the info shopping that resulted in this thread. But I think in principle he is correct - a little bit of appropriate marketing could educate prospective customers, set appropriate aspirations/expectations, being in more business, and ultimately bring in more repeat business.

A fine and informative thread indeed. Carry on...
post #108 of 147
So who's gonna build a site?
VS? No, all that it/he /she/they seem to be able to say is Why should I. My response is why shouldn't you? You seem to want to complain the most and do the least to build the site that would satisfy you.
Max, I gotta say he might. Others would complain that he's not independent enough in the eyes of many here at Epic. So most of what he would say would be perceived as just repeating what HH says. Fair or not that's what happens when you champion a particular program as much as he has.
Epic, if he had the time it just might happen. Same for Garry.
Me, I don't see it as anything more than chasing your tail and duplicating what is already out there.
PSIA, Hardly, they're a convenient target because many feel they should be everything to everyone. In fact since they have official suppliers (sponsors) they wouldn't be independent enough anyway.
Ski Areas, Bingo! If anyone should be doing something to attract new business to their resort, it should be them. So VS have you run your ideas by some resorts? What did they tell you? You won't find many of the owners or managing officers here at Epic.
post #109 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
Ask the OP in that other thread to post the same question on NS. Then focus a webcam on yourself so I can watch you start to vibrate as the fat ski recommendations come in!!! Heck, why don't you post it up there yourself as a hypothetical!

I think VS1 (and much of PSIA) is in the dark ages wrt to equipment evolution and related technique evolution. Presumably the inverse relationship is true as well . But VS1 seems to have hit a deservedly raw nerve wrt PSIA. It is beyond me how an organization of its sort can avoid gathering such obvious "low hanging fruit". What is so hard about the concept of generating "pull" and preemptively reducing friction & frustration for prospective clients? Especially when a significant return can likely be produced "on the cheap". Look at the mess in that "600" links. Suppose a bit of education & expectation setting made 5% (or whatever more realistic number it might be) more clients really happy/excited after their first or second lesson? Heck, even 2%? What would that do to repeat rates? Filling classes? It goes on and on.

The irony, as noted above, is that I'm so far away from VS1 on the "specifics" front that I'm a material part of why he started the info shopping that resulted in this thread. But I think in principle he is correct - a little bit of appropriate marketing could educate prospective customers, set appropriate aspirations/expectations, being in more business, and ultimately bring in more repeat business.

A fine and informative thread indeed. Carry on...
the goal for me, spindrift is to make to Dteam while having a general Disdain for the entire organzation along the way. Upon arriving at this goal, I want to try to shake thing up about these very misconceptions from the likes of PSIA.

also L3 on the heirarcy of gear knowledge. lol there are so many L3 that i have scared the hell out skiing 'real' terrain that the certification is meaningless to me. Its not where you can ski, it whether you can ski the way they want and have an examiner who happens to actually pass people every once in awhile.

Also VS1 since I continue to be active online and in this thing that seems to alude you(real life) my influnence and respect no matter how over the top online will be much more than you ever could hope for by posting panties in a bunch threads like this.

and just remember folks stephan colbert the character and stephan colbert the person are not the same personality
post #110 of 147
OK, sorry for drifting off course, but this needs to be addressed quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
I just despise their Snobbishly Sneering at all organizations not their own (and the people within them) as well as their creation of Strawman Arguments to assist in the discrediting of all others. I also have no use for their endless undermining of other 'systems' and the clever recruiting tactics they use on these forums to bring others into their camp.
First, VS has made it clear that he is not in the PMTS camp so not sure why he continues to be lumped into it, perhaps because its inconvenient to have a PSIA member disagreeing with you?

Second, can you point me to the post(s) where you noticed that I sneered at or said something derogatory about any other system? That was not my intention and I'd like to modify my approach but can't do that without knowing what it is that I'm writing that you consider to be sneering at other systems.
post #111 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1
I just want to commend both of you. To be able to come in at posts 98 and 99 and to contribute a unique perspective and to not rehash what has already been discussed or to take the thread off the topic is quite refreshing :

not quite sure what to say to that other than to treat the comment with the contempt it deserves
you are obviously someone who skis a bit and whatever job you do you have no idea about life in the real world, you have an axe to grind with the PSIA for some reason, having re read the 4 pages of this that you started i still can't truely see the validity of your point, so why should anyone else, 22 years in the ski and outdoor industry has taught me that there are an awful lot of people just like you...best policy IME has been to ignor them, get on with what is happening in the real world and hope that things move in the direction that you would like.
if there was that much support for what you want to achieve it would have happened by now...ok you say slow boats don't go fast, well they keep moving and they take a hell of a lot of stopping, so if the idea is a runner get the support from the people in charge and do something about it, if the people in charge & the majority of the membership think it is waste of time [which by reading the majority of comments on here they do] then get off your high horse and give us all peace

BTW i see you mangaed to edit out the most relevent part of my post in your quote
post #112 of 147
Max,
Not sure why Michael sees you sneering. Maybe it's because as I said a few posts ago, your past is haunting you. Perhaps it's comments like "it's inconvenient to have a PSIA member disagree with you" that are being seen as smug and snobby.
VS on the other hand is quite different in that there isn't a solution to their complaint. Six hundred sites that don't fit their needs leads me to believe that they haven't actually searched all of those sites. Nor would a new site built to their specifications satisfy them. The comments about me not finding the right one for them fits nicely with their comments about "why should I" when asked about creating one themself. Sounds like a spoiled kid whining about what others aren't doing for them.
Myself, I have never had a problem finding information about ski equipment, or vacation advice. So I don't understand why VS can't find the advice they are seeking. Then again I don't view manufacturers and retailers as people trying to keep me in the dark about their products and services.
post #113 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
...
If Rusty had brought this question up would it have been received in this way ?
Rusty did ask for positive comments on this subject and there wasn't much of a response outside of mine.This is more a reaction to the OP and not a reasonable discussion. Too bad. The idea has merit.
Unfortunately, it is an issue of messenger and style. And history.

The constant harangue against the PSIA and not stepping forward to put any skin in the game just gets old.

All of VS’s posts can basically be summed up as – you all are stupid, none of you can ski, I am smarter and better than all of you. Incredibly, BWP adds his super-ego to the mix and claims to be even better than VS1, while having nothing but “disdain” for the rest of the members and their contributions. That confession of mockery should seal the deal on never obtaining L3, regardless of how strong the skiing gets. PSIA, like any well functioning team, needs people who can work together and find areas of compromise to move the organization forward. It doesn’t need people who stand in the back of the room and tell everyone else how stupid and inept they all are.

The problem with the “calculator” is overwhelmingly clear from this thread alone. If VS has his way, the calculator will not recommend a 175/100 ski for a 100lb young skier. Spindrift, on the other hand disagrees and would find fault with one that doesn’t. Either way, the calculator is going to drive a standard through the organization that one of them finds unacceptable. If the young skier comes in contact with either of them (or people who think similarly), he’s going to be told not to listen to what PSIA says because it/they are a bunch of fools.

This thread isn’t doing much to solve a small hole, but it is making it glaringly obvious how difficult it is to herd a flock of cats.
post #114 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by medmarkco View Post
Unfortunately, it is an issue of messenger and style. And history.

The constant harangue against the PSIA and not stepping forward to put any skin in the game just gets old.

All of VS’s posts can basically be summed up as – you all are stupid, none of you can ski, I am smarter and better than all of you. Incredibly, BWP adds his super-ego to the mix and claims to be even better than VS1, while having nothing but “disdain” for the rest of the members and their contributions. That confession of mockery should seal the deal on never obtaining L3, regardless of how strong the skiing gets. PSIA, like any well functioning team, needs people who can work together and find areas of compromise to move the organization forward. It doesn’t need people who stand in the back of the room and tell everyone else how stupid and inept they all are.

The problem with the “calculator” is overwhelmingly clear from this thread alone. If VS has his way, the calculator will not recommend a 175/100 ski for a 100lb young skier. Spindrift, on the other hand disagrees and would find fault with one that doesn’t. Either way, the calculator is going to drive a standard through the organization that one of them finds unacceptable. If the young skier comes in contact with either of them (or people who think similarly), he’s going to be told not to listen to what PSIA says because it/they are a bunch of fools.

This thread isn’t doing much to solve a small hole, but it is making it glaringly obvious how difficult it is to herd a flock of cats.
A calculator is not what is needed or has been suggested .

Let's simplify this. A wider ski has more float which is very helpful..... A narrower ski is easier to edge on hard surfaces and .....
Some bindings allow you to release your heel to enable easier travel across inclines and traverses and ........

Explanation about the uses of different equipment. not a calculator you plug your vital statistics into. Fat skis respond like this, a soft ski will do this, a combination(midfat)will respond this way. Generic information on how equipment is put to use .

A calculator is an impossible task to be viable. Information about performance characteristics is not such a tough task.
post #115 of 147
Garry and friends, who is your audience?

Is it novice skiers?
post #116 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
Garry and friends, who is your audience?

Is it novice skiers?
I would say so. From beginners to folk getting into the world of multishaped skis and other equipment without a base of knowledge to draw from
post #117 of 147
MichaelA, GarryZ, thanks for helping me out!

Pm's read, form letters sent, comissions collected. It's a beautiful thing.
post #118 of 147
Skip all the BS....
Quote:
You know .... I used to think marketing was a necessary evil. Then after the third new marketing guy that I had trained on our product in 15 months quit, the really evil marketing managers decided I could just officially (unofficially) do the job (in addition to my regular duties) instead of telling the new guys what to do. After 6 months I figured out why the other 3 had quit and they finally hired some poor schmuck who was too stupid to quit. That said, it does not hurt to wear a marketing hat now and then. A lot of the stuff actually makes sense.

Marketing does not have to be expensive, but it can get expensive quickly. Marketing can be highly effective, but the failures scare people off. Effective marketing starts with a clear understanding of the business and a clear definition of the objective. There's a big difference between increasing sales and increasing profits. Assumptions (like assuming more sales equates to a healthier business) can cause a lot of problems in marketing. It's very easy for small organizations to limit their marketing efforts to be highly focused on their core missions.

VS has made an observation that PSIA does not effectively market to the public. I've made the observation that PSIA has not ignored marketing to the public, they just have not been very effective. As such, the efforts have been more focused on trying different ideas as opposed to executing on a working strategy. PSIA has investigated what it would take to do traditional marketing. Examples, like the PGA, show that dues would have to be significantly increased. Understanding of the organization's demographics leads to the conclusion that that kind of dues structure is not sustainable for PSIA. This leaves PSIA with the assumption that marketing activities must be limited in scope. Check out this press release. Buried in it are notes about PSIA supporting the SIA's Winter Feels Good campaign and an update on the second season of "Go with a Pro". There have been attempts to reach out to the public in the past (e.g. website redesigns, presence at booths at ski shows), but the concept of reaching out to the public to "serve the public's needs" has been difficult to comprehend and doing this over the web has been beyond comprehension.
PSIA can publish some generic public service info on it's web site. We can help to define, design and create appropriate content. It will get done quicker if we help, than if we don't. If PSIA chooses not to publish, there are plenty of other publishing mediums. If I understand VS's gear idea, a non-denominational description of different kinds of gear ought to be doable. If one describes the benefits of design features generically, the consumer can decide whether a 175 cm long 100 mm wide ski is too much for a powder ski for an 11 yo.
post #119 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Skip all the BS....


PSIA can publish some generic public service info on it's web site. We can help to define, design and create appropriate content. It will get done quicker if we help, than if we don't. If PSIA chooses not to publish, there are plenty of other publishing mediums. If I understand VS's gear idea, a non-denominational description of different kinds of gear ought to be doable. If one describes the benefits of design features generically, the consumer can decide whether a 175 cm long 100 mm wide ski is too much for a powder ski for an 11 yo.
I think this is on track. Whether on the PSIA website or an affiliated "public" one - I can only see this helping. The details are in a sense secondary to the model. PSIA has a pedagogical approach. Or maybe a region by region variation on a pedagogical approach. And their audience seems to me to be anyone wishing to learn to ski (beginners) as well as anyone wishing to "improve" their skiing -- hence certs up to level 3. So the potential audience is big.

I think it is hard to argue with the notion that PSIA's pedagogical approach presumes a certain "zone" of equipment. Despite my biases & expectations for the future, at the moment I doubt the average PSIA instructor would know what to do if someone showed up with Praxis Powders or K2 Hell Bents or Armada ARGs or JJs. Other than suggest a different pair of skis for the lesson. Likewise a pair of 62 or 67 skis would likely cause consternation under many circumstances. So why not preemptively set as many prospective customers up for "success" as possible?


How hard would it be to provide a bit of educational material of the form:

if you ski at level "X"

and want to learn "Y"

our recommended lesson(s) for you is "Z"

and we suggest gear of the form "Q"

Maybe with a mature but simple discussion of what X, Y, Z and Q mean --- something easy to understand but respectful and relevant. Maybe with some "visual aids"? Heck, you could even include a very brief discussion of more "fringe" things (gear and technique) and some guidance on how to find appropriate instruction under the PSIA umbrella if you wanted to go there. Maybe PSIA could actually ascertain some amount of market "demand" quite directly through such a mechanism (or maybe save work by partnering with something like www.teachstreet.com for listings & metrics (disclaimer - I'm somewhat connected to those folks, so this could be considered spamish, but it is the best site I know of to illustrate the point)

Since I like paradoxical things -- I suspect that if a PSIA informational site were authoritative enough & PSIA could, within its bylaws & legal framework, run ads that such a site could actually represent a revenue stream for PSIA rather than just an expense item.

Anyway, much as it rubs my genetic makeup the wrong way to agree with VS1, I have to say I think he's on track here. Just .02 from an outside observer with no particular axe to grind...
post #120 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
MichaelA, GarryZ, thanks for helping me out!

Pm's read, form letters sent, comissions collected. It's a beautiful thing.
No malice intended. I found humor in it's timing and thought you intended just that . I had just posted below you not seeing your blatant marketeerring.
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