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Slow Boats Don't Go Fast

post #1 of 147
6/10/08 at 2:43pm
Thread Starter 
My brother made this observation when he was about 3. It came to mind regarding my favorite inept ski organization: PSIA

In the equipment forum there was a discussion about buying a 90 Lbs. 5'2' kid a 175 cm 100+ waisted powder ski. It was a pretty wacky discussion and I thought to my self let me put my PSIA membership to use and go visit the website where they surely will have information. Nope. Nothing.

But the shame is not just that a member couldn't get the info, it's that nobody can. Why doesn't PSIA have a FAQ for the public or better yet an ask the pros area where the public can get information and help.Can't one demo team member a month do this on a rotating basis? I'm not talking about their forums, I'm talking about something right up front that offers a service to the public and therefore promotes the organization and it's members.

There is just zero innovation or spark in the leadership and I'm not just talking about the skiing!

They did of course manage to get dues notices out on time and allow you to pay those online.
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post #2 of 147
6/10/08 at 3:22pm
That's a good question. There are so many options for skis that some basic guidelines should be offered.
The Alpine Manual just states that there are a variety of shapes and offers no help if a kid or parent wanted advice from the instructor that they should provide or refer people elsewhere.
The opinion seems to be to not make judgments on what people use but do your best for them on what they slide up on.

Some advice should be offered for age,skill,size and weight and it's relation to length and shape.


Due are due in a couple weeks or a late penalty will come into play.
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post #3 of 147
6/10/08 at 5:49pm
Thread Starter 
I thought they were charged with growing new skiers? How about a "what you need to know about your first ski trip" FAQ? Everything from equipment to clothes to LESSONS!!!!!!!!

Real dim bulb country there at HQ
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post #4 of 147
6/10/08 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
I thought they were charged with growing new skiers? How about a "what you need to know about your first ski trip" FAQ? Everything from equipment to clothes to LESSONS!!!!!!!!

Real dim bulb country there at HQ
That was one of the premises of the newbie subforum here
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post #5 of 147
6/10/08 at 7:03pm
J This is a PSIA rant/suggestion question.

Since we are obligated to serve the individual needs of the student it is up to us to make them aware of the options available to them.

PSIA serves the needs of instruction but leaves it up to instructors to fill in the blanks and equipment is one of them.

Advising instructors with some basic guidelines would be in line with learning progression suggestions and other information offered by PSIA.
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post #6 of 147
6/11/08 at 2:19am
The PSIA website should also recommend ski boots. And they should tell all skiers about the current avalanche danger. And they should explain to all skiers what clothing they should select as well as where to buy everthing. And PSIA should rate all ski areas, listing every run and the current snow conditions on each run! Also, PSIA is just woefully lax for not teaching the general public how to negotiate for season's passes, how to get good deals, how to put on tire chains, how to get highway reports and, and, and.....


Get over it Volklskier! Whatever PSIA did to tic you off in the past is over and done! PSIA is a ski Instructor organization. It doesn't supply information to the general public about skis, boots, ski areas, clothing, highway conditions nor any other such information.

There are a wealth of sources for the information you describe (and EpicSki is one of them). Ski and Boot information is available just about everywhere and PSIA has no place making recommendations to individuals in the general public on what ski they should buy.

PSIA's focus in on the training and certification of ski instructors and to provide support to its members. Nothing more. It astounds me that you (Volklskier) just keep mindlessly bashing away with these totally nonsensical attacks on PSIA.

.ma
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post #7 of 147
6/11/08 at 2:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ
PSIA serves the needs of instruction but leaves it up to instructors to fill in the blanks and equipment is one of them.
Exactly Right!

Individual instructors seek out such information as appropriate to their own region. A 'powder ski' in Utah would not necessarily be the powder ski of choice in Washington State. Clothing from Utah probably wouldn't do well in the PNW.

Skis change every year, boots change, ski areas change. There is no way PSIA National can keep up with such things and neither can individual divisions. Ski selection is a very individual thing, related not only to the conditions the skier will apply it to but to the skier's own skill set as well. Generalizations don't help much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ
Advising instructors with some basic guidelines would be in line with learning progression suggestions and other information offered by PSIA.
In my own area we often get suggestions on ski gear from clinicians. We end up discussing current gear and any options for it. This happens all day long in my ski school as well. My school even does a pre-season dryland gathering where a local high-end store brings in samples of all the new gear for discussion.

GarryZ, if your own ski school isn't providing such information already it would be worth asking for a presentation by one of your larger local ski shops. Ski shops are happy to do it as they want you to know what they've got and what it's for. (This simply isn't what PSIA does.)

.ma
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post #8 of 147
6/11/08 at 2:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
I thought they were charged with growing new skiers? How about a "what you need to know about your first ski trip" FAQ? Everything from equipment to clothes to LESSONS!!!!!!!!

Real dim bulb country there at HQ
Logical progression of a 1st ski trip dictates meeting the instructor AFTER the new skier is on snow. So this information comes too late if someone was to rely on an instructor to provide them with it, that is if they planned on taking a lesson.

Fortunately, the ski instructors EMPLOYER often has this information available on their websites for anyone planning a first ski trip. Even info on the hold recording instead of music when calling a resort. Boothcreek provides this on their resorts websites. And Avalanche info, and backcountry, and skiers code, and tons of info a new skier can read BEFORE they head off on their trip. Waiting till you meet you PSIA certified instructor is a bit too late to prepare. Nothing to stop the instructor from augmenting this with their own recommendations from what the skier interpreted from a website.
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post #9 of 147
6/11/08 at 5:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
The PSIA website should also recommend ski boots. And they should tell all skiers about the current avalanche danger. And they should explain to all skiers what clothing they should select as well as where to buy everthing. And PSIA should rate all ski areas, listing every run and the current snow conditions on each run! Also, PSIA is just woefully lax for not teaching the general public how to negotiate for season's passes, how to get good deals, how to put on tire chains, how to get highway reports and, and, and.....


Get over it Volklskier! Whatever PSIA did to tic you off in the past is over and done! PSIA is a ski Instructor organization. It doesn't supply information to the general public about skis, boots, ski areas, clothing, highway conditions nor any other such information.

There are a wealth of sources for the information you describe (and EpicSki is one of them). Ski and Boot information is available just about everywhere and PSIA has no place making recommendations to individuals in the general public on what ski they should buy.

PSIA's focus in on the training and certification of ski instructors and to provide support to its members. Nothing more. It astounds me that you (Volklskier) just keep mindlessly bashing away with these totally nonsensical attacks on PSIA.

.ma
PSIA's recognition among the skiing public is basically ZERO. Which means that it's certification and education is worth basically zero to it's members. If I get a degree from Reno community college it is not as recognized and therefore as meaningful to otehrs as a degree from MIT.

This is basic marketing. Even if PSIA only is serving instructors, it is to it's benefit and it's members benefit to increase it's presence with the public.

As far as a equipment goes, while there is information on the internet much of it is misleading. Just go read the 11 year old powder ski thread. PSIA could provide a lot of information that was not manufacturer specific that would be a great help to the public.

MA, you're defensiveness is mind boggling. But even if PSIA wants to stick it's head further in the sand and have no communication with the public, why doesn't it provide this information for it's members?

No Michael you're thinking is very flawed, if PSIA wants to grow and be a meaningful partner if the ski business then it should be engaging the public.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Logical progression of a 1st ski trip dictates meeting the instructor AFTER the new skier is on snow. So this information comes too late if someone was to rely on an instructor to provide them with it, that is if they planned on taking a lesson.

\. Nothing to stop the instructor from augmenting this with their own recommendations from what the skier interpreted from a website.
I'm really having a hard time following this. My suggestion has nothing to do with waiting to meet the instructor. It's about PSIA providing information to the public via their website while they are researching their trips.
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post #10 of 147
6/11/08 at 5:52am
VS, I'm not sure why you think PSIA should get into that area. I also wonder how you would fund that service. If you do it with sponsorship money the content would be limited to the sponsors lines. If our dues are used then the dues would increase to cover the expense of additional staff, travel, etc.
So IMO this service would be redundant when you consider the fact that a lot of this information is already out there if you know where to look.
Specialty Retailers train their staff to do this, the ski mags publish a gear guide and a vacation guide every fall. Most of the ski areas have a web site with this information on it. Retailers do demo days where a variety of manufacturers are there with their latest equipment which is available for the consumers to try.
I also find it curious why you wrote about this here instead of contacting PSIA directly with your complaint. Sounds like sour grapes when you do that.
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post #11 of 147
6/11/08 at 6:13am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
VS, I'm not sure why you think PSIA should get into that area. I also wonder how you would fund that service. If you do it with sponsorship money the content would be limited to the sponsors lines. If our dues are used then the dues would increase to cover the expense of additional staff, travel, etc.
So IMO this srvice would be redundant when you consider the fact that a lot of this information is already out there if you know where to look. Here's a few places that I know about
Specialty Retailers train their staff to do this, the ski mags publish a gear guide and a vacation guide every fall. Most of the ski areas have a web site with this information on it. Retailers do demo days where a variety of manufacturers are there with their latest equipment which is available for the consumers to try.
So I just don't see the need for us to add to the wealth of information already out there.
I'm not suggesting a manufacturers buyers guide. Where would you go right now for information on if and what type of powder ski to buy for an 11yo? That talks about construction, dimensions etc. Can you point me to a couple of links? JASP, go and read the thread in the equipment section and you'll see a real need for this.

As for costs, PISA must already have some IT staff. Can't writing a n00b guide be done in about an hour and run by the D-team? What is the cost there? I don't se the need for any travel. To me this seems like a very easy way for PSIA to increase their visibility and benefit their members.
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post #12 of 147
6/11/08 at 6:34am
How tall, how much do they weigh, how agressive are they and what's their ability level?
Ever hear of gear finders? Ski and Skiing magazines both have one that would do exactly what you are asking. They also have manufacturers links for details like construction, flex and dimensions. When my cubs were racing I contacted the manufacturers directly off of their web page. If that doesn't tell you enough walk into a ski shop and ask them to help you. If you don't know a reputable one in your area I'm sure someone here at Epic can suggest one...
Insofar as PSIA having the extra staff, why would they have a staff member on the payroll with the time to do all of this research but not be publishing it? C'mon wake up the staff has enough to do already. Asking the demo team to make recommendations is another odd thought that doesn't make much sense. They usually have an endorsement contract, or they are an area rep for a manufacturer. Not exactly an un-biased source.
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post #13 of 147
6/11/08 at 6:48am
I'd be very concerned if a professional ski instruction organisation of any acronym were to produce blanket advice on what brand or model of ski to use.
To do that, they would end up selling out to ski companies, and then it would be a case, not of "what ski is best for the skier?" and it would become "what ski that our sponsors produce would be the best fit?" I've seen other groups do that to their detriment.


...but if you feel that every skier in the world can be categorised by a smple spreadsheet, and from that there will be only one ski for them, then good luck in developing the software to do that. I struggle to see how it can work unless you make skiers into robots who only ski in one way, with no room for personality or style.
Now that I think about it, yes, it is simple! If there is only one way to ski, then all we need is find a ski already in production that performs better than others with that one way, and then you market the heck out of that brand. With most people on that one brand, then you it's easier to teach them to ski the same way, and it's self-perpetuating from there. (the ski instruction system could also make a few $$ from the hardware sales as well)
Genius idea, Volkl. Unfortunately I don't buy into it, cause I buy a ski based on how it feels when I ski on it, not cause some marketing bloke tells me to.
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post #14 of 147
6/11/08 at 6:58am
Any guesses what brand Volklskier would suggest to his customers?
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post #15 of 147
6/11/08 at 8:00am
Head.
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post #16 of 147
6/11/08 at 8:52am
I don't see anyone trying to push a certain product here or expecting an organization to promote any manufacturer.
The question is that basic questions that are presented by students inquiries are not met with guidelines or a FAQ page for people to use PSIA as a fountain for information
Maybe the point is that it isn't PSIA's job to provide to students and that may be valid but instructors need some kind of help since the shapes of skis have changed so much in the last 10 years. In the old days we bent our wrist to fit them a, slapped on our skis and adjusted our bindings by twisting a knurled adjuster to a setting that kept our feet in them . It's much more complicated than that now and some folk are truly lost in figuring this stuff out

The point I am reading and understand is that PSIA serves the instructor so they can serve the needs of the student.Having a FAQ set up would be a good thing and doesn't need to favor a manufacturer but it really is pertinent information.

Maybe a solution is to have manufacturers submit a FAQ as part of PSIA sponsorship . They can provide or recommend a link to help supply good information for the uninformed.

I see many instructors on outdated equipment and have done much educating myself to peers to show them what is available as far a ski shapes and other equipment options.
If the people providing instruction don't have a clue how do you expect them to provide good information to the student ?
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post #17 of 147
6/11/08 at 9:30am

So many zeros, so few boats

Hmm - let's start with ZERO marketing
Have you seen the Go With a Pro campaign?


Next zero, the role of PSIA within the industry
Quote:
About PSIA and AASI


PSIA and AASI are educational organizations of the nonprofit American Snowsports Education
Association (ASEA) with a combined membership of more than 29,000 men and women who are dedicated to promoting snowsports through instruction. The organizations establish certification standards
for ski and snowboard instructors and develop education materials to be used as the core components of most ski and snowboard school training. PSIA and AASI support the membership through research and
development of instructional programs in alpine and Nordic skiing, snowboarding, adaptive skiing, and children’s skiing.
Quote:
About the Professional Ski Instructors of America

PSIA is a close-knit group of full-time and part-time instructors dedicated to reaching the highest levels of performance within the snow sports industry. Membership represents increased professionalism and rewarding personal achievement. PSIA instructors are recognized and respected by both the public and people within the industry. As a PSIA member, you can get involved in a variety of disciplines, including alpine, nordic, snowboard, and adaptive instruction.
Vision: Inspiring life-long passion for the mountain experience
Mission: We support our members, as a part of the the snowsports industry, to:
• Develop personally and professionally
• Create positive learning experiences
• Have more fun
Ok - one could argue that VS's suggestion falls under the vision statement. Historically, PSIA has supported other ski industry associations for efforts similar to VS's suggestion. Preparing this kind of information for the public and or directly presenting it is not unprecedented. The old yurmountain site was an attempt along these lines. But it's not a PSIA core competency. With respect to "no way" for PSIA to keep up, there is a way but the traditional way would not be cost effective. One of the fundamental dilemmas facing PSIA is the conflicting goals of expanding the marketing to the public and keeping dues low. Other organizations that do substantially more marketing to the public have substantially higher dues.

So the question is how to these kinds of ideas get off the ground? Well, contrary to popular belief, PSIA works best when ideas flow from the bottom up. Contrary to popular belief, the leadership depends on the membership to do the actual work on these ideas. Members can make suggestions through a variety of channels, but most ideas for "stuff" start to come to fruition via a proposal. The proposal is essentially a business plan laying out the objectives of the project, a high level description of the deliverable, funding requirements, etc. So if you've got an idea and you really want to see it come to life, simply posting the idea on epicski.com will get you exactly ZERO. Epicski or the PSIA forums could be used to collaborate on development of such a proposed guide. If you believe that a newbie guide can be done in an hour, then do it yourself and post it on the PSIA site. You'll spend less time than writing up and defending your rant.

The next zero myth is zero innovation from the leadership. The latest innovation is the Matrix. Other recent innovations include Stepping Stones and Visual Cues.

With respect to growing new skiers, this comes under the NSAA Model for Growth initiative. NSAA has decided that new skier info should be provided by the resorts. Here's an example of this. You can argue about the execution of this strategy, but you can't argue there has been ZERO results. You can also argue that one of the instructors in the lesson pic on the example web page desperately needs a shave (Yikes - that's me!).

Zero public recognition of PSIA you say? Although I do find it shocking when a guest not only recognizes my pins, but also knows what the color means, it does happen occasionally. If you can find a copy of Ski or Skiing that does not have an article mentioning PSIA in it (not to mention those written by a PSIA member), then please let me know.

Zero value to certification and education? Then why are you still paying dues? If the majority of the membership agrees with you, there is a mechanism to make change happen to improve the value. The monetary value of PSIA certification and education is certainly weak, but PSIA's ability to change that is limited. Some of us believe that there are lots of non-monetary benefits of certification and education, but you've clearly stated your position that we're all deluded. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Zero is such an easy concept to disprove. I hope to add my mind boggling defensiveness to Michael's. It's hard not to pass up responding to such a mountain of inaccurate statements that are slanted to achieve an agenda. Focus on a constructive approach instead of trying to shame people into action and lead by example and maybe the responses you get won't be so mind boggling. There is no shortage of opportunities for PSIA to improve its organizational effectiveness. There is only a shortage of elbow grease.
But you can't say that ZERO elbow grease is being applied, even when you look in the mirror. The big questions are "Is there a more effective way to apply that elbow grease" and "If so, how?". You're half way there.
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post #18 of 147
6/11/08 at 10:19am
Nice work, Rusty.
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post #19 of 147
6/11/08 at 10:40am
I tried Rusty's suggestion and left some feedback on the PSIA site.

It would be nice if they would ask us if they could link but I would think they would want sponsorship fundage. The links they do provide are to Ski mag and other more commercial type enterprises.
I did ask them to consider it and to consider adding some FAQ's that might be helpful. I doesn't hurt to be polite and try.
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post #20 of 147
6/11/08 at 10:52am
havent you heard that the PSIA ski choices are arcadic at best?
Even there own examiners at Snowbird choose pretty skinny skis, funny. I ski more than them while they sit on the side and discuss turning on a powder day. Search out hard snow so they can actually turn, its pretty pathatic.

The late may powder day was a great example those guys had to quit early because they couldnt handle how heavy the snow got, examiners here, we are not talking just run of the mill PSIA dreadnaught L3, these are the best of the best. While a lowly intermiete like me kept going all day long. Funny thing isnt it? I mean how can me a beginner at best possiable out last a examiner any day let alone a 'powder' day. Man i feel so priviledged.

hey its the internet dude, you lost your crediability to anyone who skis powder when you proclaimed Volkl Ac4s were the best powder skis ever. That you some ungodly badass that can ski better than anyone here. And that technique matters most(news flash to average rec skier it doesnt). So now you have your panties in a wad complaining that the PSIA should have a site to stop what happened in that thread. What a ****in whinier.
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post #21 of 147
6/11/08 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
I tried Rusty's suggestion and left some feedback on the PSIA site.
Mind you that "forum community management" is one of the bigger opportunities for improving organizational effectiveness. The snowboard team gets it. The alpiners don't. When it come to the forum, the PSIA pump still needs more priming.
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post #22 of 147
6/11/08 at 12:04pm
Out of character as it is for me to agree with VS1 :, I think he's right in his suggestion that PSIA could perform a valuable public service in this way.

How controversial (or difficult ) could it be to provide some basic information about what to look for in *beginner* skis, boots, and clothing?

VS1 is talking about people who don't have a clue how to plan or pack for a ski trip. We've all seen them show up in woefully inadequate clothing and on gear that is going to make their "ski experience" far more painful and difficult than it needs to be.

Those who argue that this isn't the mission of PSIA might want to think about it a little. If the PSIA site provided useful information for the people who will represent their future market, everybody potentially wins. Every beginning skier whose eyeballs find the PSIA site useful will be that much more inclined to ask for a PSIA instructor when the time comes to take a lesson.

Look how many beginners have discovered Epic and then leveraged the information this site provides into a long-term love of the sport. Why couldn't PSIA perform a similar function?

Just because this kind of thing hasn't been PSIA's mission in the past doesn't mean it shouldn't at least be considered as part of the mission in the future. Seems like a full-on no-brainer to me.
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post #23 of 147
6/11/08 at 12:39pm
I have no problem with EpicSki filling the void as information providers to recreational skiers. Let PSIA focus on being information providers to professional instructors. It's a nice cooperative effort for the good of our sport. Who cares if it's completely serendipitous?
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post #24 of 147
6/11/08 at 3:04pm
"Welcome to the Professional Ski Instructors of America website. The purpose of the site is to provide members, press, and consumers with a wide variety of resources related to snowsports and teaching."

What are the goals of the website and who is your audience? This is one of the first questions I ask a client at the initial consultation (I own a web development company). As you can see from the quote above it is for the members, press, and consumers. Is it meeting all of these goals effectively?
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post #25 of 147
6/11/08 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
I have no problem with EpicSki filling the void as information providers to recreational skiers. Let PSIA focus on being information providers to professional instructors. It's a nice cooperative effort for the good of our sport. Who cares if it's completely serendipitous?
I understand the philosophy, nolo, but why is the PGA not a reasonable example to use? The PGA *technically* exists to support professional golf teachers. Nevertheless, the PGA website offers an enormous amount of advice to non-professionals about instruction, equipment, travel, programs, etiquette, etc. By embracing non-professionals, the PGA seems to be bringing more people into the game, thereby making the pie larger for all of its teaching members.

Perhaps if PSIA took a different look at its charter, new vistas and new opportunities might open up.
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post #26 of 147
6/11/08 at 3:13pm
And who are PSIA's potential future professionals(members)? Non-professionals of course!
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post #27 of 147
6/11/08 at 3:26pm
BWPA,

Agreed, there's something to be said for using the right tool for the job. There's a place or time for your fat boards, for sweet slalom skis, and everything in-between.

However, before you go sneering too hard at the examiners on skinny skis go back and read some of the gentle feedback you received after your L3 attempt and after previous videos you've posted for MA. You deride examiners looking for hard snow "so they can make turns." Maybe they deserve it. But think of it as an opportunity -- you could go with them and learn how to make L3-grade turns in non-powder conditions (the ones most students take lessons in ) Then your next MA video would boost your status and reputation on the forum and among your peer professionals.

Inching closer to the original post, the ski choices of high-level PSIA examiners probably has very little to do with the recommendations a broad committee of PSIA pros would make for equipment for never-evers.

PS The ones who do successfully ski pow on those skinny skis would positively rip on skis like yours. Does this suggest a path to becoming an even better powder skier?
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post #28 of 147
6/11/08 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
I have no problem with EpicSki filling the void as information providers to recreational skiers. Let PSIA focus on being information providers to professional instructors. It's a nice cooperative effort for the good of our sport. Who cares if it's completely serendipitous?
Nolo,

I have to agree there's much wisdom in Bob Peter's response.

Not to take anything away from EpicSki, but PSIA is a national institution and has relations with almost every ski area and resort in the United States (and beyond through its ISIA peer organizations.) Many resorts have some on-line hints for never-evers and inexperienced skiers, but they're often slipshod and vary from resort to resort. I imagine some resorts would be glad to simply link to a PSIA page and say "here are the expert recommendations for new skiers." And that many others would willingly add a link saying "for additional inforation, see this PSIA site."

In fact, even the insurance companies would probably like professional society endorsement of safe, effective beginner gear because it might reduce injuries and gives the appearance of a resort supporting industry best practices. For all its virtues, this is a role that EpicSki is simply not able to fulfill. I know your opinion is sincere, but it's worth pointing out that as a member of EpicSki management, you have a business interest here.
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post #29 of 147
6/11/08 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post
BWPA,

.........However, before you go sneering too hard at the examiners on skinny skis go back and read some of the gentle feedback you received after your L3 attempt and after previous videos you've posted for MA. You deride examiners looking for hard snow "so they can make turns." Maybe they deserve it. But think of it as an opportunity -- you could go with them and learn how to make L3-grade turns in non-powder conditions (the ones most students take lessons in ) Then your next MA video would boost your status and reputation on the forum and among your peer professionals.......
I thought it is only me..... Right on, sharpedges!

But be careful, as many people will now jump in with the scream: "I skied with him and he is an instructor!" As if being an instructor is like being a god....

Cheers,

cfr
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post #30 of 147
6/11/08 at 4:28pm
sharpedges, in addition to being in epicski management, I was an officer of PSIA for many years. The modern world is about relationships and I embrace that.

To those who would have PSIA be more like the PGA, I would say that these two organizations are quite different: people make a very large investment to qualify for PGA membership, whereas the PSIA may find its latest dues increase translates to significant attrition. This is because the economy of golf instruction is completely different than the economy of ski instruction.
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