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post #31 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
SO???
Max, SO = Significant Other.
post #32 of 95
I don't know how the heck I missed that one!
post #33 of 95
Thread Starter 
Pete, I'm glad you found the thread useful. Getting people thinking actually was the purpose behind my starting it. There is currently a school of thought out there that downplays the appropriateness of turning to control speed. While I think I understand the reasoning behind promoting that philosophy, that being an attempt to provide a mental perspective aid for those skiers whose default turn is a braking turn,,, to help them break out of the pattern. The problem with it is it takes great liberties with reality, and can cast shadow over some very important tools and technical concepts for learning skiers.

There are many reasons to turn. Just for the fun of it,,, to feel the G's,,, to stay in a course,,, to avoid hitting sturdy objects,,, to get somewhere in particular,,, or to keep speed at a desired level. All are very legitimate uses.

Speed control on a consistent slope comes from two primary sources: turn shape, and type of turn. Learning to execute any shape or turn type at will, then blend these two components in any manner is the key to ultimate control on skis. By doing so, you can ski any slope, in any manner, on any line, with any turn shape, at whatever speed you desire. This is what JASP and Borntoski were getting at, and they're right on target. Developing these skills is where grace is born.
post #34 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
Who ever said they were disconnected, Rick didn't say that but just posed the question. Controlling, scrubbing speed can be done without turning but only under certain conditions on the hill. As Bushwacker says turns can also be made to pick up speed - all depends where and what is your motive.
Just remember its entirely possiable to gain speed on a cat track on hyper carvers by 'pumping" turns.

a classic thread..

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...aining+tur ns

i can still do this on my RC4 and have never seen others do this at snowbird or anywhere but high end SL races on the flats.

I would say my old B5s were much better at this than my RC4, I was actually to the point that i could carve on flats keeping speed on the B5s.

but as i said for most people turning is used primarily to slow down whether they know it or not, for truly great skies we can use it too speed up as well.
post #35 of 95
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Bushwacker. Another use for turning I didn't include.
post #36 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
Who ever said they were disconnected, Rick didn't say that but just posed the question. Controlling, scrubbing speed can be done without turning but only under certain conditions on the hill...
Maybe no one said turning and controlling speed weren't connected in this thread. Had I read your first post in this thread instead of skimming over it, I probably would not have posted because you pretty well summed up my thoughts on this matter. My comment about disconnect is directed towards things I've read in other threads from the school of thought Rick mentions here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
...There is currently a school of thought out there that downplays the appropriateness of turning to control speed. While I think I understand the reasoning behind promoting that philosophy, that being an attempt to provide a mental perspective aid for those skiers whose default turn is a braking turn,,, to help them break out of the pattern. The problem with it is it takes great liberties with reality, and can cast shadow over some very important tools and technical concepts for learning skiers...
Well said, but I'm not sure that focusing on "go there now" will really cause any problems. It seems that most students will understand that turning out of the fall line will slow their descent. Turning will remain their default method of slowing down. The idea is that they turn their skis to change direction instead of to increase friction.

Oops a little lightbulb just went off. Bushwack wrote "I turn to change direction." and it seems I've used the same phrase above.

OK, I turn to change direction. I change direction to control my speed. It appears I've disconnected turning from controlling speed, except turning and changing direction are the same thing, so it's still connected, I turn to slow down. (Sometimes.)

A focus on turning to change direction, to "go there now" should help students learn to use turn shape instead of friction to control speed. I think in some cases, tiimid students should be made aware that turning out of the fall line will control speed. Otherwise they might be resistant to give up the braking style of skidded turns. Not a problem if you introduce the concept on very easy terrain, but may fall back on bad habits when moving to steeper terrain.
post #37 of 95
Thread Starter 
Yep, you've got it, Telerod. Many skiers don't understand the concept of speed control via turn shape. Many have little shape in their turns at all,,, it's basically straight down the falline with linked pivoted skids to control their speed. They're CM is not actually turning much at all, they're just swishing their tails back and forth as their CM goes straight down the hill.

The message we should be sending them is that turning and turn shape can be substituted for down the falline tail swishing to control speed. Not that turning is NOT a speeding control mechanism. At face value that actually sends the opposite message. Teach them how to shape turns,,, let them experience how turn shape influences their speed,,, let them though turn shape learn to enjoy the falline rather than fear it, so they don't feel the need to quickly escape it,,, show them how they can even manage speed within any particular turn shape via a broad quiver of edging skills. That's a pretty good formula for building broadly skilled and confident skiers
post #38 of 95

Turns

Telerod and Rick. Good points, turning to control speed instead of just putting on the brakes. Of course most decent or good skiers do this to different degrees. However your point is made for both of you on new skiers and some new tendencies. When I used to teach beginning skiers I stressed Using what the hill gives you, i.e., we would stop at the top of a run and look down and I would point out the hills contours. Part of this was for instance, the hill goes uphill to your left so if you want to slow down you are better turning L and uphill to scrub your speed, but remember you don't have to stop. From this point usually I would enter into finishing turns if they were ready of course.

Some of the thoughts and content here I believe are important. There are those who say you can carve turns anywhere, I don't necessarily agree with this statement. A variety of turns, turn shape and scarves, skids, hockey stops and slow downs, skidding and pure carving to me prepare the person for the whole mt. and gives him or her much more versatility. Maybe I am making an excuse though and just aren't good enough not to use the gamut available to bail myself out at times.

Who knows? I guess I will have to wait till Nov (only 5 month) to find out. Thanks for post.
post #39 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post

Some of the thoughts and content here I believe are important. There are those who say you can carve turns anywhere, I don't necessarily agree with this statement. A variety of turns, turn shape and scarves, skids, hockey stops and slow downs, skidding and pure carving to me prepare the person for the whole mt. and gives him or her much more versatility. Maybe I am making an excuse though and just aren't good enough not to use the gamut available to bail myself out at times.
Pete, that's not making excuses,,, that's honesty, awareness, and reality. I totally agree with you on the importance of developing this type of skill versatility. And I'll tell you something else. Most of those that profess to arc to arc the whole mountain are either telling porkies, or don't really know how they are skiing. Pivot alert.

And on terrain usage:
post #40 of 95
I know a lot of you can ski arc to arc on steeper terain than I can, but we all have our limits. I think even those of us who love carving often prefer terrain that is too steep to allow us to pure carve.

No shame in scarved turns. Even on a light blue groomer. Enjoy yourself. A lot of people will push themselves to ski as clean a line as they can and there is nothing wrong with that either.
post #41 of 95
Well, I'm not sure arcing everywhere is such a great goal because it ignores the fact that no one turn type is appropriate for every situation. Skiing the whole mountain means knowing more than one way to turn.
post #42 of 95
If that is directed to me, arcing everywhere is not my goal. I'm not goal oriented, I try to have fun and ski the best I can. I don't prefer terrain that I can ski arc-to-arc. I am not obsessed with it but I do try to ski as clean a line as I can.
post #43 of 95
T-rod,
No I was not directing anything your way...
Just pointing out the falicy of obsessive thinking. Matching tactics and technique to the terrain (being versatile) is a much better barometer of expertise than being obsessed with one turn type, shape, etc...
post #44 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Well, I'm not sure arcing everywhere is such a great goal because it ignores the fact that no one turn type is appropriate for every situation. Skiing the whole mountain means knowing more than one way to turn.
One turn type? Not even sure what that is? However, I find that the same movement pattern with changes in DIRT suffices quite well for all mountain skiing.
post #45 of 95
Max Turn types are generally defined by how the skis act during the turn. Skidded turns do not use the same blend of skills as a carved turn would. In your understanding of Dirt are you saying it includes changing the skills blend. If so that would be what I am saying. If not please expand on the idea of how changing the DIRT but using the same basic blend of skills would create different outcomes (turns).
post #46 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Turn types are generally defined by how the skis act during the turn. Skidded turns do not use the same blend of skills as a carved turn would.
Quite right, JASP. And there are a multitude of different types of turns, just within the skidded classification too, differentiated in execution by how skills are fine tuned and re-blended. Managing turn shape and speed via edge control skills demands owning of a wide platform of refined base skills, and the ability to blend them as needed to achieve any turn type and shape objective. With the proper skills, any line can be skied at any speed (below the maximum allowed by gravity, of course).
post #47 of 95
Do you.............???

I'll take notes next week and get back to ya!:
post #48 of 95
I like to simplify the conundrum by noting that my skis go fast when they go downhill and slow down when I go uphill, so if I want more speed I just let the skis run down the hill more and if I want to rein them in I make them travel up the hill some in every turn. The goal for me in virtually all turns is not carving but rounding--visualize the turn as occurring inside a box and try to make my skis touch each side of the box. If I define the size of the box properly for the slope and the conditions, and my timing is on, I can usually make a round turn.
post #49 of 95
Thread Starter 
Exactly, Nolo,,, turn shape used to manage speed. And I like your "BOX" image/analogy. And turning uphill, excellent. Something I never see people think to do.

Increasing the size of the box increases the speed, as it provides more time for accelerating down the falline,,, and decreasing the size of the box allows less falline time for speed to be generated.

Now,,, within the same size box and exact same turn shape, edge control skills can be used to govern speed too. That's part two of the equation. It provides for many speed options within a given turn shape, from the fastest end of the spectrum (carving) to the slowest end (wide track steering).

Speed control is not always a main focus, but there is nothing wrong with it being so on occasion, and turn shape and edging skills are the primary tools for the task.

But prepare yourself, Nolo. Now that you've shared that gem with us, everyone is going to be wanting to try out your box.
post #50 of 95
As my old coach was fond of repeating, even a weaker skier who can't carve to save her life can make a nice round turn.
post #51 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
As my old coach was fond of repeating, even a weaker skier who can't carve to save her life can make a nice round turn.
June 9, 2008

So well, clearly and simply put. Thanks for this insight as well as your "BOX".

Think snow,

CP
post #52 of 95

Speed

I like the BOX analogy as long as it's a corrugated box and not a wooden box. Hit the sides of those wooden boxes and they're pretty sturdy.
post #53 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
I like to simplify the conundrum by noting that my skis go fast when they go downhill and slow down when I go uphill, so if I want more speed I just let the skis run down the hill more and if I want to rein them in I make them travel up the hill some in every turn. The goal for me in virtually all turns is not carving but rounding--visualize the turn as occurring inside a box and try to make my skis touch each side of the box. If I define the size of the box properly for the slope and the conditions, and my timing is on, I can usually make a round turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
As my old coach was fond of repeating, even a weaker skier who can't carve to save her life can make a nice round turn.
Taken together, sounds like a justification for the ever popular rotary skillset.
post #54 of 95
IMO speed controll has to with a couple of things: are you carving or skidding and how long time and how frequently you stay in the fall line. Staying in a carve(arcing) does not slow you down much since friction is low. Your acceleration is in direct proportion to where your skis are pointing. If they are pointing down hill you go faster than if they are pointing across the hill. Dont forget that good skiers with good equipment can hold on to a carve much longer than a less skilled skier and therefore can go faster. Also, excellent skiers that do not fear can go even faster. Slipping into a skidd slows you down since friction is increased. When skidding you can also tighten the turn and spend less time in the fall line. There are no good skiers out on the mountain that cannot crank their skis into a skid while carving and vice versa. Skiers that say they point their skis uphill to slow down are infact only pointing them across the hill. Usually when we ski we do not go past 90deg to the fall line to controll our speed. If we want to stop we can do it but if we are on a steep slope (usually the place where we need effective speed controll) pointing the skis uphill results in quick deceleration. What we do however is to point our skis across the hill and then let them run across the hill for a while. This way we slow down in a controlled way. Look at snowboarders, they turn in a perfect arc and then they go across the hill.
post #55 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Skiers that say they point their skis uphill to slow down are infact only pointing them across the hill. Usually when we ski we do not go past 90deg to the fall line to controll our speed.
TDK, that's an important point that is worth emphasizing. Very few skiers that are carving complete the arc such that they are moving perpendicular to the fall line. The majority transition while they are still pointing down hill (its easier) so they are giving up some amount of speed control. The funny thing is that it sure feels like you are cranking the ski back up the hill, but when you go back and look at the tracks you can see that most of the time the transition is well before that perpendicular point and almost never up the hill.
post #56 of 95
If they want to slow down, then one way is to go back up the hill (other ways include increasing the friction between skis and snow or using other types of braking). It's also an exercise that can be done - stall turns - where you keep in the previous turn until you are about to stall, then go into the next. (of course, that may require blending skills, so may not be accepted by some.)
post #57 of 95
Quote:
Remember--there are two ways (and only two ways) to control speed. You can brake (skid) to scrub off speed defensively ("speed control from friction"). And you can go uphill ("speed control from direction")--the key word being "go"! This is what I mean by skiing the "slow line fast"--the secret to skiing like an expert.
This explanation from Bob Barnes back in 2005 still rings true for me. The quote is from a thread on skiing bumps, perhaps the most obvious "special case" in skiing a slow line, wherein each mogul is like a small mountain that our skis climb and slow down and descend and speed up in the course of a bump run.
post #58 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
Skiers that say they point their skis uphill to slow down are infact only pointing them across the hill. Usually when we ski we do not go past 90deg to the fall line to controll our speed. If we want to stop we can do it but if we are on a steep slope (usually the place where we need effective speed controll) pointing the skis uphill results in quick deceleration. What we do however is to point our skis across the hill and then let them run across the hill for a while.
tdk6, this is why I said to Nolo above I never see people think to do uphill (90 degree plus) turns. It's definately an option for speed control, and only a couple degrees past 90 will do the trick quite well.

A great drill is to practice these while carving, selecting as high a degree of turn (amount of uphill turn) as possible that will allow you to keep moving into the new arc without having to fudge the carve. I will have carved turns in my DVDs that clearly show linked carved turns of approx 120 degrees.

It can be done while steering too, but base speeds are lower, and dump quicker, so degree of turn past 90 possible is very minimal. Steering turns makes 90+ turns rather unnecessary. Most recreational skiers do not do 90 plus turns for this very reason. They are not skiing arc to arc, they are steering and pivoting, and most are doing a wide track steering verion, so all the speed control they need to find comfort is already built in without having to go past 90.
post #59 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Quote:
(posted by Rick)...There is currently a school of thought out there that downplays the appropriateness of turning to control speed. While I think I understand the reasoning behind promoting that philosophy, that being an attempt to provide a mental perspective aid for those skiers whose default turn is a braking turn,,, to help them break out of the pattern. The problem with it is it takes great liberties with reality, and can cast shadow over some very important tools and technical concepts for learning skiers... -Rick
Well said, but I'm not sure that focusing on "go there now" will really cause any problems. It seems that most students will understand that turning out of the fall line will slow their descent. Turning will remain their default method of slowing down. The idea is that they turn their skis to change direction instead of to increase friction.

Oops a little lightbulb just went off. Bushwack wrote "I turn to change direction." and it seems I've used the same phrase above.

OK, I turn to change direction. I change direction to control my speed. It appears I've disconnected turning from controlling speed, except turning and changing direction are the same thing, so it's still connected, I turn to slow down. (Sometimes.)

A focus on turning to change direction, to "go there now" should help students learn to use turn shape instead of friction to control speed. I think in some cases, tiimid students should be made aware that turning out of the fall line will control speed. Otherwise they might be resistant to give up the braking style of skidded turns. Not a problem if you introduce the concept on very easy terrain, but may fall back on bad habits when moving to steeper terrain.
Well telerod pretty much summed it up and went through an open thought process that lays it out, but I'll add to it anyway.

I think there's some misconceptions about the "Go There" philoshophy and the statement that one controls speed through line instead of turns.
First off, you can add "Now" to "Go There" if you want but that implies you are skiing fast or with some urgency.

Just because you turn to "go there" and follow a line does not imply any sort of speed. It does not mean you are going fast. Using line to control speed and turning to "go there" is totally valid for beginners.
Using line to control speed does not mean that all turns are carved or have to be carved.

I really don't see the dark cloud that using line to control speed casts over learning skills. What liberties with reality is it taking? If one is skiing, one is going downhill along some sort of path. If it's powder then it's quite obvious what that path was - what line you took. You can see the shape of the turns you made. On groomers that doesn't show up but it's still there. Are you active in creating that path or defensive in making turns that exist just to slow you down? The first is offensive in intent, following a line and turning to "go there". The defensive is turning to "stop going there" - mostly to slow you down.

Turning to slow down usually makes people defensive - they ski on their heels and push them out. Since they want to slow down all the time they stay behind their skis. The skis are protecting them. They really don't want to go down the hill - to let their body free fall for an instant, but at some point they have to change direction so they quickly jam everything around. Eventually they might get pretty good at this and develop some sort of smoothness. Turning now is pretty much changing the direction the skis point. First they point left, then they point right, in true windshield wiper fashion. They develop a high level of comfort with this sometimes but I don't think we'd call those "turns". They really are never going anywhere at any moment even though clearly they will get somewhere by not going there.
This is usually because they fear releasing the edge and falling into the future. To break this habit they have to be taken to easier terrain, which often is resisted, so they can feel comfortable releasing the edges and actually making a turn.

dustyfog posted this video of his 5 year old son. Clearly, the kid wants to "go there" because that's what skiing is to him. He knows about using line to control speed and he's definitely got the "go there" down as you can see in the part roughly 15secs to 40 secs. He's not skiing fast or carving. His line is actually a bit fast for his ability so sometimes he has to put on the brakes before the turn. He doesn't seem particularly bothered by it.


So to control speed through line you change the line - it goes more across the fall line and possibly uphill. It's as if you're skiing that powder run before hand - following the line that shows up at the end. It's not set in stone and it can be varied at any instant. The advantage of this focus is it keeps you thinking about where your going. Since you're thinking about a line your following, the next turn is important and where to start it- the transition becomes a focus.

Good skiers will do this almost unconsciously - managing the current turn with feedback they get from the skis while looking ahead and preparing for the next turn. I would say that any skiing worth watching the skier is focused on line which is what creates the gracefulness when coupled with technique. They can ski the same line with different techniques, at different rates of speed for varying intents. If you're going to throw in some air and keep going then surely there is a plan - a line, that they have in their mind otherwise it is a series of maneuvers instead of graceful skiing.

Racers of course are obsessed with line. I remember it being talked about that Picabo Street would run a downhill course in her mind and come within a couple of seconds of her actual time. I'd imagine that all top racers have similar skills and one frequently sees pictures of them at the top of a course waiting and running the course in their mind, eyes shut, and using their hands as the skis in the turns.

For big mountain skiers the skill of line memorization is maybe even more important because their well being and possibly existence depend on it. It can be critical for them to memorize their line and the visual cues for it because as they ski they can't always see the path ahead. So they have to memorize it from the helicopter and then ski it on the ground - two very different perspectives that they have to hold in the mind. That is a highly developed skill.
Eric DesLaurier recommends hiking up a complicated, direction changing chute that you've never skied before. This is both to learn the path you will take down and the conditions.
I suppose in 'fall you die' terrain a general line or path where you're going is important, but the turn is far more important. You have to make the turn to control your decent so it doesn't matter if your line is a series of possibly disconnected "turns". Still, if the focus is only on the turns, you might miss the path you have to take and end up falling off the mountain.

Sure one can talk about turn shape and skills to make turns. I don't see that as mutually exclusive from using line to control speed. In a sense it's what borntoski683 talked about with ballet and figure skating. They spend a lot of time working on jumps and moves then put it together in a routine. Working on skills or turn shape could be compared to the working on moves of the dancer or skater, and using line to control speed compares to the routine that those athletes perform.

At some point if you get into a sort of logic debate the concept of using line to control speed as opposed to using turns to control speed might break down. Such a debate would require a lot of knowledge of the rules of logic and debate and in the end would be sort of silly. Try talking like that to the 5 year old and very soon they'll just start jumping up and down and say "are we going to ski now?"
post #60 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Sure one can talk about turn shape and skills to make turns. I don't see that as mutually exclusive from using line to control speed.
Tog, In my book line and turn shape are the same thing, and you have to turn to manage them. We apparently agree. It defines one half of the speed control picture.


Quote:
I really don't see the dark cloud that using line to control speed casts over learning skills. What liberties with reality is it taking?I really don't see the dark cloud that using line to control speed casts over learning skills. What liberties with reality is it taking?
No dark cloud there. If you're using line, then you're using turn shape, and you're turning to do it. A student is half way there. It's those who jump up and down that you DO NOT turn to manage speed that are curiously confused. Watch them ski. Their turns don't consistently go from carved long radius 30 turns on the greens, to steered/pivoted short radius 90 on the double blacks out of chance. They're using turn shape and edging skills to manage their speed. I do it, and you do too.

Quote:
Good skiers will do this almost unconsciously - managing the current turn with feedback they get from the skis while looking ahead and preparing for the next turn. I would say that any skiing worth watching the skier is focused on line which is what creates the gracefulness when coupled with technique. They can ski the same line with different techniques, at different rates of speed for varying intents.
Exactly what I'm saying. And it only becomes unconscious once the skills have been developed.

Quote:
Turning to slow down usually makes people defensive
Only skiers who lack the skills to do it well. That's what pros should be striving to do,,, promote improvement in the skills. The quality of the turns will then take care of itself,,, regardless of the reason for the turns.
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