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Acceleration

How many types of acceleration are there and what are they?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 How many types of acceleration are there and what are they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration

Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity. At any point on a speed-time graph, the magnitude of the acceleration is given by the gradient of the tangent to the curve at that point.
Now apply that to skiing.
True enough Slider, but don't forget that there is linear and angular acceleration. Granted, we would deal most often in linear acceleration.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Now apply that to skiing.
You are (almost!) always accelerating when skiing.

Acceleration is change in velocity.

dv/dt

You change velocity by changing speed or changing direction.

If you straightline down the fall line, you are accelerating subject to the force of gravity. Eventually (theoretically) you will hit terminal velocity, where friction and wind resistance oppose the force of gravity. However, by that point, "terminal" tends to have a slightly different meaning...

If you change direction at all, you are accelerating. Note that slowing your speed is also defined as acceleration.

If you are not accelerating, you are moving at a constant speed in a linear direction - or at rest. From Newton's perspective, the two are the same. If you disagree, think of your last airplane ride...
Acceleration is fun.
And then there's accelerated learning, which I hear from some comes about by reading the Instructional forum here. They get so confused it slows right down to a crawl.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by RiDeC58 True enough Slider, but don't forget that there is linear and angular acceleration. Granted, we would deal most often in linear acceleration.
Interesting. Can you elaborate?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick And then there's accelerated learning, which I hear from some comes about by reading the Instructional forum here. They get so confused it slows right down to a crawl.
Wouldn't that be deceleration?
:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BillA Wouldn't that be deceleration? :
See what I mean?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Acrophobia If you change direction at all, you are accelerating. Note that slowing your speed is also defined as acceleration.
Yeah, Bill, deceleration is also acceleration. Who'd a thunk it. I would suspect not most average Joes and JoAnns who are trying to learn to ski. Some of our discussions here go so deep into the scientific dark side a large portion of those coming here to learn just throw up their arms in confused frustration and head for the door. I've seen comments form Epicski student types suggesting that's the case way too many times, and I find it distressing. Personally, my goal is to reach these people with information they can take to the hill and use to improve,,, not to chase them away.

While this forum is valuable for pros to sort out the science behind the theory, those preaching to the sorters need to remember that they are acting as teachers, and proving they're right to one person is not the same as being successful in the teaching of the group. When focus drifts to winning a single argument via endless scientific justification, the true mission (as I see it) gets lost, and we lose the audience we should actually be speaking too. That's a shame.

Part of the learning of the pros here should be of how to teach technical material in a manner that's consumable for even the non scientific sorts,,, which is most people. Simplistic accuracy is an art form,,, one that needs to be focused on and practiced diligently to be honed. I think if we all keep that in mind,,, if we always stay cognizant of the bigger picture of what we should be trying to do here,,, are efforts here could experience greater success, and bestow value to a larger audience.

David M is a good example of what I'm talking about. For those who remember him, his debut here was not well received by all the forum's pros. He came in with valuable information and ideas, but he was talking way over most of the pros heads, and his message was just not clearly getting through. At a point of his peak frustration I PM'd him to suggest he would have better success on the forum if he just "DUMBED IT DOWN" a bit. He said he wasn't willing to do that, and if that's what it would take then he was not going to waste his time anymore,,, and he left.

He was right. He was to a large degree wasting his time. While his message was sound and valuable, his presentation was not geared to the broad audience, and thus was getting lost in the fog of scientific mumbo jumbo. I later did what I suggested to him. I presented here at Epic the concept of ILE he had been talking about in a more broadly understandable version. Through that effort, the concept was eventually understood and accepted for it's value. And the rest is history. The acronym ILE is now pretty widely known and understood around the world of skiing. This is the potential for promoting wide spread education that is carried by striving for simplify. Shall we give it a shot?
Rick,
I was referring to the deceleration of the learning process not to the actual physics. Interesting how the two coincide though. I think we are in agreement on the rest of it, presenting information in a manner that is easily understood by the less technically inclined. It's unfortunate the there is rarely (if ever) any discussion of the learning/teaching process and how to effectively present information in a teaching/learning environment.
Why is acceleration up for discussion?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Yeah, Bill, deceleration is also acceleration. Who'd a thunk it. I would suspect not most average Joes and JoAnns who are trying to learn to ski. Some of our discussions here go so deep into the scientific dark side a large portion of those coming here to learn just throw up their arms in confused frustration and head for the door.
Scientific dark side?

Say what?

I think I first saw "F=ma" in seventh grade. Newton's laws of motion are really pretty simple, conceptually.

Anyway - isn't the technique & analysis forum specifically designed for endless arguing over minutiae? I mean, I thought that was the whole idea.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Acrophobia Anyway - isn't the technique & analysis forum specifically designed for endless arguing over minutiae? I mean, I thought that was the whole idea.
Exactly. The Ski Instruction and Coaching forum is a better place for applying Rick's suggestion of a less technical approach.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Acrophobia Anyway - isn't the technique & analysis forum specifically designed for endless arguing over minutiae? I mean, I thought that was the whole idea.
Very good, Acrophobia. Only been here since March, and you already have that figured out. Stick around, then. You'll really enjoy the 7 page discussions of whether centrifugul force is a real force or not,,, and other such threadical gems.

My belated welcome to Epic.
BTW, if it is still not clear, there is only one type of acceleration ... but many ways to experience it.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Very good, Acrophobia. Only been here since March, and you already have that figured out. Stick around, then. You'll really enjoy the 7 page discussions of whether centrifugul force is a real force or not,,, and other such threadical gems. My belated welcome to Epic.
Oh, this place doesn't even come near the bike forums. Multi-page thread on whether one's sunglasses ought to be worn inside or outside the helmet straps. I'm not even kidding.

Also, thanks! I've made the most of my brief time here. Already skied with a sizable contingent of the PNW crowd, had several offers to borrow/demo skis, and even received a hands-on tutorial on ski tuning and waxing. I am, frankly, astounded at the generosity and helpfulness of the people here. It's too bad about all the pointless arguing, but hey it's the internet. That's what it's for, apart from pr0n.
Ah, where Tom (Physicsman) when we need him. Maybe if we shine a bright light into the sky, he'll come back...
Quote:
 David M is a good example of what I'm talking about. For those who remember him, his debut here was not well received by all the forum's pros. He came in with valuable information and ideas, but he was talking way over most of the pros heads, and his message was just not clearly getting through.-Rick
Truly a shame. I never got the point of people's problems with him. Scsa on the other hand... (note to Acro: infamous username)
At some point perhaps there should be an expedition up to Whistler, capture McPhail, make him tell us everything he knows so it can be written down. I'll nominate Acrophobia to be part of the interrogation.
Quote:
 Multi-page thread on whether one's sunglasses ought to be worn inside or outside the helmet straps. I'm not even kidding.-Acrophobia
I'm going to need to know more so I know where I stand on the issue...For skiing I find sunglass retainer straps should be outside the helmet strap, but it's not worth arguing about. See now we can feel superior. Now where's that China or SUV thread...

btw...has anyone noticed Max's tendency to start massive threads with as few words as possible? I think he's playing some sort of thread Haiku,or he's like Dr. Evil laughing at what happens, or maybe it's like starting an auction off at \$0.99 so people who don't even want the thing bid on it.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Tog Truly a shame. I never got the point of people's problems with him. Scsa on the other hand... (note to Acro: infamous username) At some point perhaps there should be an expedition up to Whistler, capture McPhail, make him tell us everything he knows so it can be written down. I'll nominate Acrophobia to be part of the interrogation. I'm going to need to know more so I know where I stand on the issue...For skiing I find sunglass retainer straps should be outside the helmet strap, but it's not worth arguing about. See now we can feel superior. Now where's that China or SUV thread...
Another classic bikeforums thread was: "Is a \$5000 bike really all THAT much better than a \$1500 bike?"

Hilarity ensued.

I do not know who this McPhail person is, but I'm happy to go to Whister. Especially if it snows this week, as rumored.

Quote:
 btw...has anyone noticed Max's tendency to start massive threads with as few words as possible? I think he's playing some sort of thread Haiku,or he's like Dr. Evil laughing at what happens, or maybe it's like starting an auction off at \$0.99 so people who don't even want the thing bid on it.
I am now in my head recasting the Austin Powers movies with Epicski personalities...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by RiDeC58 True enough Slider, but don't forget that there is linear and angular acceleration. Granted, we would deal most often in linear acceleration.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by TomB BTW, if it is still not clear, there is only one type of acceleration ... but many ways to experience it.
New guy is confused.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Tog btw...has anyone noticed Max's tendency to start massive threads with as few words as possible? I think he's playing some sort of thread Haiku,or he's like Dr. Evil laughing at what happens, or maybe it's like starting an auction off at \$0.99 so people who don't even want the thing bid on it.
I found Epic by searching with Google and one of Max's threads was returned. The tone was spicy. The content thought provoking.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Acrophobia "Is a \$5000 bike really all THAT much better than a \$1500 bike?"
Yes.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Acrophobia I am now in my head recasting the Austin Powers movies with Epicski personalities...
LOL you are soooooo funny! Made me spit wine on the keyoard.

Multiquote is wicked cool beans.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by SnowDogs I found Epic by searching with Google and one of Max's threads was returned. The tone was spicy. The content thought provoking.
That's a good thing, right?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SnowDogs Multiquote is wicked cool beans.
By any chance are you from the North East?
"Is a \$5000 bike really all THAT much better than a \$1500 bike?"

Certainly ! ... if you're the one selling it...

---
Though off-topic to Acceleration, I think I'll disagree with some of what Rick posted above.

While it's true that we need to communicate meaningfully with students I absolutely disagree that we should ever "Dumb it Down" as this is a distinct disservice to everyone. Presenting accurate, detailed information without dumbing things down is the the real Art Form of quality communication.

Simplified information is helpful when introducing a concept, but in no way delivers the depth of understanding most of us need in order to comprehensively understand and implement that information. Simplified information in place of comprehensive information is almost always a bad idea when Training the Trainers.

.ma
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick When focus drifts to winning a single argument via endless scientific justification, the true mission (as I see it) gets lost, and we lose the audience we should actually be speaking too. That's a shame.
Hallelujah to that!!

signed...one of the said audience.
Max. Did you get the answers you were looking for ?

It doesn't seem to be focused on but the post by Rick concerning goals to use technical knowledge to teach concepts in a clear ,simple, accurate method that will stick in the minds of the learner is the goal of all forms of instruction is worthy of it's own discussion.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by GarryZ It doesn't seem to be focused on but the post by Rick concerning goals to use technical knowledge to teach concepts in a clear ,simple, accurate method that will stick in the minds of the learner is the goal of all forms of instruction is worthy of it's own discussion.
Perhaps in the right forum. This forum was specifically created so the debating and in depth analysis would be separate from the teaching stuff.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by TomB There is only one type of acceleration ... but many ways to experience it.
There's accelerating out of the turn, affected by the skier (at the top of the turn) pushing back uphill with the feet, thus propelling said skier in the direction of travel faster than gravity alone dictates.
Acceleration is useless unless it takes you somewhere. Max , I like ya, so I just have to be honest. I like honesty, it can be kind, & the occasional brutality of it provides areas to grow & plenty of good laughter. This is your, yes yours Max, typical systematic methodoligy of leading readers & particiapants around for 3 pages or more finally getting into a discussion of a theory you have that will be disclosed 100 posts into the thread. One liners. Lots of them. No real thought or concept put forth. Hidden in the sidelines, super secret, waiting.... waiting... for what ? Support ? Things to disparage or dispute ? Lets get to the meat of it already, okay ??? Waiting for enough to edit or multi quote ?

So I ask, WHAT is it you really want to discuss ? WHAT about acceleration it is you want to discuss, put forth or learn about. An WHY do you wish to debate/discuss/disclose, etc etc etc ? I wish to accelerate this thread to your true direction. Otherwise I'll have to move onto world peace. Definately more worthy of Sandra Bullock's as well as my own personal time to discuss & debate. You saw that movie right ? This thread has multi-fractionated at an alarmingly accelerated pace.
Maybe I can accelerate this enough to make top of the next page ?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Perhaps in the right forum. This forum was specifically created so the debating and in depth analysis would be separate from the teaching stuff.
oops, I thought the point of debating was to learn & teach ?
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