Quote:Originally Posted by Tetranode The hypothetical question of naming other countries is irrelevant and illogical because the subject of debate here is China, not the US, not Slovenia, not anywhere else... it's context sensitive.Beyond: You need to get your terms right if you're attempting to argue logic. First, bringing up other countries is not a "hypothetical question." It's not a question at all, it's not hypothetical, and while it may be irrelevant to your original question, about which skis are not made in China, it is entirely relevant to the argument underlying your question, which you brought up by stating a discomfort with products made in the "east."
You're missing the point and forgetting to include the very question which I answered it to. Context is very important in this dialogue and you're leaving a large part of it out, twisting my words and misinterpreting it. China is the subject in question here. By suggesting that America, or Slovenia, be the country in question for manufacturing ski products in place of China, that would be assuming that the countries ' statuses are similar and interchangeable, which is not true in this case. Get the original context right.Beyond: You may wish you had never tossed in that helpful explanation, but it's out on the web now, and it makes your "simple" question follow from your conclusion about Asian quality control. That conclusion, in turn, can be drawn from several underlying premises, one of which is that skis from China have a higher chance of being low-quality than skis from other countries/regions. Thus it is wholly relevant for Spindrift to bring in other countries, or to ask where the data are to support this inductive claim.
Of course I have a discomfort with products made in China, that is a "personal" thing, drawn from my personal experience. I make no claims as which product from which country is inferior or superior when compared to the others, so refrain from demanding supporting evidence. As for Spindrift bringing other countries? I'd like to answer to that but you're going to have to be more specific in your description of why that is relevant in questioning this so-called premise that you've drawn from my words.Quote:Originally Posted by Tetranode As for smearing skis made in China, I don't think so. I don't trust my skis to be made in China is not the same as proclaiming skis from China suck.Beyond: Umm, OK, then perhaps you could explain the difference. As far as I can tell, you're trying to define a lack of trust for Chinese skis as completely different from a statement about Chinese skis sucking. Eg., "I'm sure they're wonderful/other people may think they're wonderful, I just don't trust them." Of course, then you're hung up on your own stated reasons for not trusting them, which are a lot closer to a global distrust of all things from the "east," and certainly show you do not think they're wonderful or even reliable. Can't define yourself out of it.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth, really, how far are you willing to psychoanalyze my statement before it becomes apparent that you're writing it based on your own prejudice?
Can't define myself out of what? The faulty conclusion that you've reached? I don't trust Chinese-made skis, there are a million reasons why I don't trust them and you've selected a few potentially non-existent rabble-rousing highlights and decided to condescend on me based on them?
Beyond: So restated, your question is of the form: List all members of the set not-A, because members of the set A are untrustworthy. But what is your underlying argument to get to "untrustworthy?" Members of the set A are untrustworthy because?
Minus the political and economical reasons? Untrustworthy because I've had past products from China that were less than reliable. This is a personal thing.
Beyond: That gets you into deeper water. That other unstated premise may be that these skis are likely to be inferior because the people/culture who make them are inferior, or perhaps just greedy and cunning, trying to slip inferior skis over on Americans. Now I'm sure you see your discomfort as a very innocent, "personal" thing, based on your own individual experience; you are completely unaffected by anything else going on in America. OK, but there is a vast history in the U.S. of racial stereotyping aimed at Asians, and nearly as vast a scholarly literature on how this stereotyping plays out in terms of everyday discourse about Asia or Asians or Asian Americans. Go educate yourself and see how your assumptions about skis fit nicely with this history, whether you intended that or not.
Whoa, that's a bunch of slippery slope conclusions that you've
drawn based on your
imaginary premise to fit your grander view of American racial stereotyping, and it's simply not true, once again you've put more words into my mouth that didn't exist. I highly suggest that you be more precise in how you go about drawing your conclusion.
Go educate myself about how your
assumption fits nicely with the history of stereotypes and prejudice? Those are your assumption, not mine, and quite frankly, they're inaccurate and reveal only your predjudice. You are the first one to invoke Asian Stereotypes in thread when there were none before, coming up with these false accusations that is simply not true. I will say it again: they are simply not true, got that?
I simply started this thread to verify which skis are made outside of China. Let's not make mountains out of molehills okay?Quote:Originally Posted by Tetranode And why would I have to provide facts for the skis in question? "Not one logical argument on the table"... about what? All I want to know is whether they're made in China or not. I am not putting ski quality to the question, I am asking where the skis come from, period.Beyond: As I showed above, this is disingenuous. Your question springs from a conclusion about Chinese skis, and that from an unstated argument about quality and perhaps race that you yourself supplied to all of us. At least own up to your own words.
Wait... for your paragraph above, did you meant to say "from" or "form?" I'm pretty sure that was a typo and I'll try to bear with it.
My bottom line is that I prefer skis that are made outside of China (and yes I don't trust skis made from China), and is trying to figure out where the major companies are making their skis. Try not to divulge into some civic-class argument involving false conclusions and exposing your prejudice through it, okay?PS:
If you're going to argue with my reply--and I expect you will--try to include as much previous context as you can... it helps you, it helps me, and it helps anyone who still gives a flying dime about this thread. Thank you.