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Pressure control on ice - Page 3

post #61 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borntoski
...which is why the femur generally has to turn it the hip socket...
Cool, we got all the way from "...they can't..." to "...generally...". Heh, I can live with that .

.ma
post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
Well, this isn't entirely true... If a skier wishes to do so, they can easily enact Knee Angulation without femur rotation. To do so they simply need to rotate their entire body (instead of just the Femurs).

This is possible to demo on a slick floor. Just bend your knees to a 45-degree angle and rotate your whole body as into a turn while leaving your feet where they are. The feet will likely twist a bit against the floor, but you will end up in an 'angulated' position using at your knees.

I think a lot of skiers do this - especially those who tend to initiate their turns with upper body rotation. Whether we should do this or not is a different matter.

.ma
What you describe is offcourse possible to do but as BigE pointed out that would not be knee angulation. Also, its the total opposite of what we want to do. For skiing purposes its totally wrong!
post #63 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Is there really any such thing as knee angulation?
No! But the term is being widely used for pointing the knees by rotating the femures in their hip sockets. Our knees only bend in one plane.
post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
No! But the term is being widely used for pointing the knees by rotating the femures in their hip sockets. Our knees only bend in one plane.
Now you are trying to redefine the term KA. There is no sense whatsover in saying knee angulation means the knee bends sideways. We all know it does not.

This thread has become beyond ridiculous.

BTW, you can't point your knee either. It's not anything like a finger.
post #65 of 73
As evidenced above, in some sectors of the skiing community, knee angulation is a contentious issue. Does it even exist? If it does, is it a key element of your tool bag or skiing anathema? And what does this have to do with the OP and ice?

Getting back to the original post, are there any orthopedic surgeons or other medical professionals reading this thread who would choose to use knee angulation to lock in a high energy carve on tilted skating rink ice? Or not to? Is your answer based on personal skiing preference or at least in part on biomechanical considerations? (basically, was my advice in post #3 to avoid knee angulation bad advice from a medical perspective)

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post #66 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
...For skiing purposes its totally wrong!
Geeze, you'se guys is alla 'bout da Rightness and da Wrongness of everything..! Ever hear of a Greyscale?


Sharpedges,

Yep, Knee Angulation does exist. By definition 'Angulation' is creating lateral angles using various parts of the body. As applied, there is no requirement that any particular body part must hinge laterally - only that the end result create lateral tipping at the ski. This means Knee Angulation qualifies.

Is it "safe"? Heck, is Skiing safe? ...All depends on how you do it!

I suspect we all use Knee Angulation all the time, we just do it to a minimal degree and don't notice it (though maybe we aren't willing to acknowledge it). Knee Angulation works great in skiing but like all things should be done in moderation. The more off-center any joint becomes, the more risky an unexpected twist or impact becomes to that joint.

Personally, I use it minimally most of the time - but am willing to use it a lot more at other times. Depends on what I'm doing and how predictable the terrain and snow conditions are. If conditions are risky, I tend to ski with very straight legs overall as compared to normal conditions.


It should be noted that skiing on Ice is not a place I'd apply large amounts of Knee Angulation as it tends to be structurally weak. It may let me gain a higher edge angle but I end up sacrificing my structure and therefore some of my ability to manage (or apply) pressure from/to that greatly-tipped ski edge.

.ma
post #67 of 73
discussions about whether the knee bends sideways are ridiculous. Discussions about "knee angulation" as it is commonly referred, in ski technique, are not ridiculous and at no point should it be considered to mean the knee bending sideways, which is not possible without special surgery.

"knee angulation" is a visual appearance associated with a skiing skill, like many others, and useful for the toolbox. For example, it can be useful at the end of a turn to get last little bit of tightend turn radius by injecting bit of knee angulation, which will increase the edge angles and perhaps the turning radius.

Unfortunately it is quite often overused by many to their detriment. As I was saying before, knee angulation is orders of magnitude weaker than hip angulation for developing edge angles. If you try to use knee angulation to start a turn(unfortunately quite common), then you will not develop a strong turn. IMHO, knee angulation cannot sustain a high G turn from top to bottom.

Your leg is no longer aligned in the best way to support the forces being transmitted down your leg due to the fact that you are pointing your knee inward, and also some flex in the leg is required in order to do any meaningful amount of knee angulation, which means you're less stacked; and you will lose some of the ankle eversion that usually comes from leg extension to create strong ankle support on the edge.

But if you think about it, when you turn the femur in your hip socket, in order to "point your knees in" and create more edge angle with knee angulation; the only thing holding that new edge angle that way is whatever muscle you have that can hold your femur in that inwardly rotated position. And the truth is it will be easily rotate right back out again, losing your knee angulation and losing that developed edge. Its a WEAK edge. Not really suitable for high performance turns, particularly when large G forces are involved. Yes, you can very easily point the knee in and get more edge angle quickly, but easy come, easy go when its weakly supported.

However, a short little burst of knee angulation near the end of a turn can certainly last long enough to get a quick little "jet" of reduced turn radius right at the end just before you're about to release anyway, if you don't have to sustain it long. I reckon in the bumps there is some knee angulation going on too, but I'm not prepared to analyze that right now.
post #68 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
Thanks for the extra responses all. They got me sorted out--mostly just needed to be way more agressive with angulation for this particular pair of skis. Another question. How is it possible to combine steering or pivoting to make a turn inside the ski's minimum radius in ice? Ramrod at A-Basin is only being groomed on one side now so the resulting path is too narrow for my minimum radius, so ideally I want to set a large initial steering angle and then engage my edges at the bottom of the turn. World-cuppers seem to do this all the time on injected courses, but I end up with a skid when I try. Anybody know what the secret is?
Well, you probably need to be smoother and attain more angulation with any skis on this snow...I wouldn't call it aggressive...smooth, progressive, quick while smooth and progressive, and more and more. After you've skidded the skis with steering or pivoting, the only possible way to engage the edges is as described above where you relax the force on the skis to allow the re-engagement. With these skis and a narrow course you probably won't re-engage.

I'm totally against any effort for knee angulation. Yes, the knee will bend sideways to the extent the ligaments allow it, but I don't want to pre-load those ligaments.

I don't want to pressure the big toe edge of the outside ski except maybe gently during the last 1/3rd of the turn (racers can do more, but most of us don't have the racer's skill and touch). Too often it pushes the ski across the snow instead of pushing it down into the snow. I'd rather get the hips way inside and low for lower body angles and bend at the waist for balance. One of LeMaster's photos shows Hermann with vectors on the pic. That shows that more bend at the waist increases the force vector working down on the ski and reduces the force vector working outward on the ski. Inclination would work the opposite.

One point made above is "early." Get on those new edges early, and smoothly, and progressively, and more and more angle. Keep dropping the hip closer to the snow as the turn progresses. You need to handle the forces of centrifugal force and gravity combined during the last 1/3rd of the turn. In the upper 1/3rd of the turn centrifugal force is working against gravity.
post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
However, a short little burst of knee angulation near the end of a turn can certainly last long enough to get a quick little "jet" of reduced turn radius right at the end just before you're about to release anyway, if you don't have to sustain it long.
Picture yourself comming through the last part of your turn while you burst that short knee angulation you mention in above quote. Your skis will cross under at a greater angle that if you had not done it and as you flex through the transition your hips move over the skis before they are engaged on their new edges. Now is the time for "pointing your knees" into the new turn. Its a form of unwinding to neutral and to catch up with your upper body antisipation. If you are doing very short turns then you skis turn underneath you and because you keep facing downhill with your upper body you automatically ski into upper body counter and your femurs keep on rotating in their hip sockets. Even without the extra little "jet" your femours keep on rotating back and forth. To put this into the OP question regarding pressure controll on ice its important to have proper upper/lower body separation and to be sure your legs are supporting your hips and upper body in a stong way (no knee angulation) when the pressure is at the highest. Dont try to crank your RD SL skis arround too quickly and aggressively since you can accidentally do everything perfectly right and your skis can all of a sudden slip into overdrive mode and turn tighter than you are prepared for. This will cause damage to your knee and rest of the body when crashing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I reckon in the bumps there is some knee angulation going on too, but I'm not prepared to analyze that right now.
In all short turn skiing you will be facing downhill with your upper body and your skis will be going back and forth underneath you. You gotta be quick with your knees. We used to do this "dwarf drill" in Austria. You grab your ski poles half way down and ski completely flexed. This is a good way to get your knees working (pointing).

BigE, sure I can point with my knees! I can also point with my elbove or butt. Use some imagination.....

michaelA, there are some things that simply are bad advice in skiing no matter how you look at it. Tell me when do you advice anyone to ski like you did?
post #70 of 73
Tilt your whole body into the turn (incline), keeping pressure on your inside ski. As pressure increases on the downhill ski after the fall line pressure the little toe side of the down hill foot. Avoid angles and pressures on the inside arch/ big toe part of the foot. Maintain pressure over the whole foot and keep momentum directed along the length of the ski.
post #71 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogonjon View Post
Tilt your whole body into the turn (incline), keeping pressure on your inside ski. As pressure increases on the downhill ski after the fall line pressure the little toe side of the down hill foot.
Huh?
post #72 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Huh?
That was my exact reaction too!:
post #73 of 73

Old school tactic

White pass turn, tactic for steep fall away turns on hard snow.
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