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rec binding+ riser or racing binding?

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
my racing skis have rec binding. What is the difference in use between adding a plate vs replacing with racing binding. I ask because I want to save the money on new binding. Thanks in advance
post #2 of 24
It is highly unlikely you would need a racing binding - one that goes up to DIN #'s of 16,18,22 because, well you would probably know.
Will you be racing and what's the current binding DIN range?
You can certainly race on a rec binding until ...well you'll know at that point!
Plate: will give you lift, will stiffen ski, and be somewhat damper, unless it's just a lifter type on toe and heel like some of old Fischers or VIST makes. (but then that's not really a plate it's just lift)

Let people know what plate you are considering, and actually *why*?
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks Tog - I m not using it for racing. My motive to switch to racing binding is that I was told racing binding facilitate turning.

My current setup is Volkl Racetiger Stock SL + Tyrolia sld11 set at DIN 5.

I intend to switch to Tyrolia FREEFLEX Plus 14 Race Ski Bindings with DIN 4-14. Or add a plate or riser.

What is the difference between plate & riser?
post #4 of 24
A plate is one piece that goes under both the toe and the heel part of the bindings.
It stiffens your ski and will you give you some lift.
A riser is usually two pieces of plate, one for the toepiece, one for the heelpiece of the binding. All it does is elevate your stand height but it does not change the intristic characteristics and flex of the ski.
post #5 of 24
If you're using it for freeskiing and at DIN 5 (!) I wouldn't go for a race binding.
A binding functions best set at the middle of the range, in this you'd have to go to DIN 8 or higher for optimum performance and safety.
I think you'll be fine with the riser or plate, unless the hole pattern of the Freeflex race binding matches that of teh current binding.
If you can avoid drilling extra holes then that's definately the way to go.
post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
... I was told racing binding facilitate turning.
This I gotta see. Ski technique facilitates turning (see "lessons"). Sidecut/torsional rigidity, length, width, waist, etc. of the ski facilitate turning. Lift (plate or lifter) can be said to facilitate turning because of increased leverage, less chance to boot-out. A certain boot design can facilitate turning.

But a binding holds your boot to the ski; it does not facilitate turning (unless you want to make the stretch that a stronger binding material may react a split-second quicker). Some designs can alter the performance of the ski to facilitate turning (see piston, free-flex, etc.), but I don't see how a binding can.
post #7 of 24
Thread Starter 
Schussboelie - thanks for great explanation

Quote:
Originally Posted by NE1 View Post
....increased leverage, less chance to boot-out.
This is exactly what I after.
post #8 of 24
I agree with Schussboelie in her comments. (nice user name there )

Carver_hk, DIN of 5!! What's your weight, and are you skiing very small slopes? Even, indoors ?! : (I see Hong Kong and the Brits like skiing indoors. I realize HK is officially in China now.)

Also NE1's comments on binding performance. It will make no difference at all since your current binding is ok. (If it was really poor then might make a difference in how tightly it holds the boot). If you ski at DIN 5 then you are not doing anything that binding can't handle


Is this the binding? Does yours have the rail system? (I take it "no")

'06 SLD 11 Tyrolia

If you do not have the rail sytem but just have the binding on a "flat" ski, then probably one of these Tyrolia Plates is fine for you. The difference is in the height. Few here would use this setup on a race ski but it would work just fine. (I have the same 13mm carveplate on a Head ss magnum)

Either of these plates will have screwholes for your binding. (Although you really need to check on that to make sure the older binding matches the holes.) If you later decide to change bindings it's easy. Also the screwholes allow you to switch binding positions -more forward or back, if you want. (not "easy", have to unscrew everything, but no drilling)

Schussboelie, NE1, which plate for him? I don't think it matters too much. Most would just get the 13mm. Someone who skis at 5 though...?

13mmTyrolia Carve Plate
9mmTyroliaCarvePlate
post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
...DIN of 5!! What's your weight, and are you skiing very small slopes? Even, indoors ?! :
You got everything right. Yes, indoor small slope. Just 80 meters long. discounting the un-skiable area is just about like 60meter. 5-6 turns each run. The highest velocity is like a joke with racing skis. That's one of the reason why I use rec binding in the first place. But I was advised to use racing binding so I figure if adding a plate would be just a equivalent for the purpose. I m 140lb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Is this the binding? Does yours have the rail system? (I take it "no")

'06 SLD 11 Tyrolia

If you do not have the rail sytem but just have the binding on a "flat" ski, then probably one of these Tyrolia Plates is fine for you.
This is exactly what looks like on top of my flat skis.
http://www.untracked.com/mortarimgcat/medium/784.jpg

My invoice didn't include the 13mmTyrolia Carve Plate and it doesn't look like there's one on my skis so I bet a 'no' too.

I might just go ahead and get a 13mm plate and save some money. Honously I don't feel comfortable with race binding. They give me an impression that they are built not to release. Thanks for the expert advise.
post #10 of 24
Indoors!
Well yeah, you definitely do not need a racing binding!
If the 13mm plate will fit those particular bindings (I believe it will but do not know for sure) then get that. That will be good for when you go outside to a larger hill or mountain.
BUT, a race slalom ski is a lot of ski to learn on, especially indoors!:
Don't worry, it's fine but it makes things a little more difficult for you. It's not a bad idea to try to find a decent used pair of skis that are a few years old. In US you can find such things for roughly 100$ with bindings. I doubt Hong Kong (!!) has such a big market for used skis, but Japan would.

I know Samurai (sp) on epic is in Japan and skis lots of powder.
post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Indoors!
Yeah! Always winter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Well yeah, you definitely do not need a racing binding!
If the 13mm plate will fit those particular bindings (I believe it will but do not know for sure) then get that. That will be good for when you go outside to a larger hill or mountain.
BUT, a race slalom ski is a lot of ski to learn on, especially indoors!:
I ll definately go that way. Cheaper and safer. Thanks for your advise.
I received two recommendation from two experts. One is to use stiffer skis. The other one from a very kind expert is to use softer skis. Both know my skiing very well. So I decide to keep on using the same skis. Afterall I have been using the stock skis for 2 years. Kind of getting used to it.
If you interested in advising on my skiing further welcome to sent me a pm and I ll request an MA from you.
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
I received two recommendation from two experts. One is to use stiffer skis. The other one from a very kind expert is to use softer skis. Both know my skiing very well. So I decide to keep on using the same skis. Afterall I have been using the stock skis for 2 years. Kind of getting used to it.
Stiffer than a Race Slalom eh? To ski indoors!? :
Are they Junior race skis?
Actually, a Junior race slalom near 150cm would be a pretty good ski for what you are doing. Sometimes you can find them very cheaply used.
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
This is a great suggestion when used with the Fischer or Tyrolia FF11 Freeflex binding.

http://www.ski-depot.com/miva/mercha...roduct_Count=4

Michael
post #14 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Stiffer than a Race Slalom eh? To ski indoors!? :
Are they Junior race skis?
I was told different brand's stock skis have different stiffness. volkl being on the softer ends. The one I use is adult skis. The indoor condition is pretty challenging. Its flat, icy, narrow and full of mini-park stuffs. A stock skis is precise and good on gripping. Actually making skiing there easier.

barrettscv - thanks.
post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
I agree with Schussboelie in her comments. (nice user name there )
That would be "his"!

And yes, I'd just go with a 13mm riser.
post #16 of 24
Sorry Schussbolie!, I guess it was the "ie" ending which made me think feminine

So carver, that 13mm plate should work well and keep you from booting out. It will also stiffen the ski slightly. Just make sure before you buy it that the screw holes will match that binding.
post #17 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Sorry Schussbolie!, I guess it was the "ie" ending which made me think feminine

So carver, that 13mm plate should work well and keep you from booting out. It will also stiffen the ski slightly. Just make sure before you buy it that the screw holes will match that binding.
Thanks Tog for your great advise. Unfortunately there are nowhere I can get a 13mm tyrolia plate. Besides the 13mm plate seems not compatible with sld11 let alone the screw holes consideration. So I might endup with a pair of new binding or complete new pair of skis.

later,

Martin
post #18 of 24
carver, try giving dawgcatching a try he sells Head. I'd be surprised if you couldn't find the plate. It might only work with the freeflex bindings though

Other Plates:
I believe you can use these with any bindings. Lou is a VIST dealer in Canada perhaps can contact him or start a thread about VIST plates and get some info.
Do you have a shop near you that you can get his stuff mounted? (No matter what you get?

VIST Plates:
http://www.vist.it/serie.dhtml?tp=2
WorldCup Race Series:
These mount rigidly under the toe and heel of boot and middle of plate flexes. Would most likely make ski stiffer and probably damper than the Air series but I have no experience with the Race Series or comparison to the other.
WCARVE13-ALU Has aluminum on top
WCARVE14N

WorldCup Air Series:
These mount rigidly under the toe of boot and back of plate moves in oval holes.:
WCASO-15 has rubber under plate at mounting
WCAIRPRO-14 has plastic under plate at mounting

I believe I had something very similar to the WCAIRPRO-14 on my Elan slx slalom ski. It worked well though I'd love to try the other. Here's what VIST says:
WorldCup Air Series:
• Fixed only in the binding toe piece area
(underneath the skiboot tip).

• Free sliding in the back thanks to the
slotted fastening system.
• A greater concentration of the power
exerted in the front part of the ski.

• A faste and precise initiation of turn

• Leaves a more natural and
straightforward curving to the ski
• Distributes the strains gradually.
all along the ski, thus being less
aggressive.
• Also allows the stout/powerful
skiers to use the skis known as
“soft”.

WorldCup Race Series:
• The power exerted by the skier

concentrates in the middle of the ski.
This characteristic amplifies the ski
reactivity, stability and good grip.
• The central elastometer is used to
accumulate all the strains. In the second
part of the turn the strains are then
released and the ski straightens up again.
• A great GRIP sensation in the middle of
the ski.
• It makes the ski more reactive/aggressive.
• The best benefits will be obtained if
mounted on the skis known as “hard”.
• Enables skiers who are not so strong
to be able to flex the ski properly and

to execute tighter turns.

sorry about the text can't get it to sho up right
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks Tog. The race series looks very attractive. I ll see if Lou can help me out. Yes there is one in Hong Kong that can do the installation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
carver, try giving dawgcatching a try he sells Head. I'd be surprised if you couldn't find the plate. It might only work with the freeflex bindings though

Other Plates:
I believe you can use these with any bindings. Lou is a VIST dealer in Canada perhaps can contact him or start a thread about VIST plates and get some info.
Do you have a shop near you that you can get his stuff mounted? (No matter what you get?

VIST Plates:
http://www.vist.it/serie.dhtml?tp=2
WorldCup Race Series:
These mount rigidly under the toe and heel of boot and middle of plate flexes. Would most likely make ski stiffer and probably damper than the Air series but I have no experience with the Race Series or comparison to the other.
WCARVE13-ALU Has aluminum on top
WCARVE14N

WorldCup Air Series:
These mount rigidly under the toe of boot and back of plate moves in oval holes.:
WCASO-15 has rubber under plate at mounting
WCAIRPRO-14 has plastic under plate at mounting

I believe I had something very similar to the WCAIRPRO-14 on my Elan slx slalom ski. It worked well though I'd love to try the other. Here's what VIST says:
WorldCup Air Series:
• Fixed only in the binding toe piece area
(underneath the skiboot tip).

• Free sliding in the back thanks to the
slotted fastening system.
• A greater concentration of the power
exerted in the front part of the ski.

• A faste and precise initiation of turn

• Leaves a more natural and
straightforward curving to the ski
• Distributes the strains gradually.
all along the ski, thus being less
aggressive.
• Also allows the stout/powerful
skiers to use the skis known as
“soft”.

WorldCup Race Series:
• The power exerted by the skier

concentrates in the middle of the ski.
This characteristic amplifies the ski
reactivity, stability and good grip.
• The central elastometer is used to
accumulate all the strains. In the second
part of the turn the strains are then
released and the ski straightens up again.
• A great GRIP sensation in the middle of
the ski.
• It makes the ski more reactive/aggressive.
• The best benefits will be obtained if
mounted on the skis known as “hard”.
• Enables skiers who are not so strong
to be able to flex the ski properly and

to execute tighter turns.

sorry about the text can't get it to sho up right
post #20 of 24
Probably the WCARVE13-ALU would be the one you want since you're considering a stiffer ski anyway. It would make a big difference in how the ski performs and would prevent the boot out. It would certainly make the ski feel more stable and powerful at speed.

Your other option would be to get the Speedlock Race plate. This is similar to the plate above but allows you to very quickly change the binding position. You could also have two pairs of skis with the two plates and only one set of bindings although that might just be annoying.

You would have to get the VIST bindings that go with it though. The advantage of that is you might want to experiment with binding position and try a slightly more forward position for indoors. I've seen Lou change the binding on snow at the bottom of the chairlift and it's very quick.
post #21 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Your other option would be to get the Speedlock Race plate. This is similar to the plate above but allows you to very quickly change the binding position. You could also have two pairs of skis with the two plates and only one set of bindings although that might just be annoying..
Great idea. This make it possible to bring two skis in one ski trip.
post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by NE1 View Post
This I gotta see. Ski technique facilitates turning (see "lessons"). Sidecut/torsional rigidity, length, width, waist, etc. of the ski facilitate turning. Lift (plate or lifter) can be said to facilitate turning because of increased leverage, less chance to boot-out. A certain boot design can facilitate turning.

But a binding holds your boot to the ski; it does not facilitate turning (unless you want to make the stretch that a stronger binding material may react a split-second quicker). Some designs can alter the performance of the ski to facilitate turning (see piston, free-flex, etc.), but I don't see how a binding can.
WRong.............!!!
post #23 of 24
carver_hk,
I forgot to mention that before doing any of the plate work you should make sure you have a proper tune on the skis. This can make a huge difference and if you do it before the plates you'll be able to separate the tune from the plate effect. It could also make your skis a lot better before you get the new stuff.

I would recommend you try a 0.5 degree base bevel and a 3 degree side bevel. This can be difficult to get done properly in a ski town let alone Hong Kong! : Just take it easy the first time you go out on it till you get used to it. If it's too grabby and quick for your liking go up to .75 degrees base bevel and if not that than 1 degree. I wouldn't go more than that.

See this thread:
Base Bevel
post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
carver_hk,
I forgot to mention that before doing any of the plate work you should make sure you have a proper tune on the skis. This can make a huge difference and if you do it before the plates you'll be able to separate the tune from the plate effect. It could also make your skis a lot better before you get the new stuff.

I would recommend you try a 0.5 degree base bevel and a 3 degree side bevel. This can be difficult to get done properly in a ski town let alone Hong Kong! : Just take it easy the first time you go out on it till you get used to it. If it's too grabby and quick for your liking go up to .75 degrees base bevel and if not that than 1 degree. I wouldn't go more than that.

See this thread:
Base Bevel
Thanks Tog. I believe this is beyond my ability to play with it yet.
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