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How to achieve parallel shin? - Page 3

post #61 of 83
TDK:
You are using different words that I would say do not mean the same thing. There is no discussion about athletic stance here as it pertains to tennis. Although I imagine there is a point where the stance in tennis is too wide for quick lateral movement. In tennis we are trying to begin movement from a static position.

In skiing we are talking about fairly constant bodymovement and about changing edges. It cannot be compared with tennis.

Wide stance has to slow down the change from edge to edge.

Lou
post #62 of 83
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P1G8i37s5Fo&feature=related

Here is a guy who skis with parallel shins.

Wonna mess with him ?

Mamma mia !!!
post #63 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Rosenfeld View Post
TDK:
Wide stance has to slow down the change from edge to edge.

Lou
Hi, Lou.

We've discussed this topic here on Epic before. It seems yours is a common belief. Actually, though, in arc to arc transitions, when using ILE (inside leg extension) or OLR (outside leg relaxation) to recruit the turn forces to facilitate the transition, a wider stance can promote a faster transition. It has to do with the larger separation of the POB (point of balance) from the POP (point of pressure) that occurs post ILE or OLR. It's creating that divergence of the POB from the POP that ILE and OLR are designed to do. The wider that stance, the greater the resultant divergence will be. The greater the divergence, the faster one's body will cross over into the new turn.

It's easy to test indoors. Stand with feet locked together, equal weight on each foot, then without moving your CM laterally, relax one leg. Then do it again with your feet about 3 feet apart. Time how quickly you hit the floor with each variation.

There's another factor that can lend to quicker edge changes with a wider stance, but I'll let you digest this one first.
post #64 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P1G8i37s5Fo&feature=related

Here is a guy who skis with parallel shins.

Wonna mess with him ?

Mamma mia !!!
Did I see a pivot? Someone told me that WC skiers don't pivot. :
post #65 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
There's another factor that can lend to quicker edge changes with a wider stance
Just want to make a guess. Is it due to less vertical & lateral COM movement?
post #66 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Hi, Lou.

We've discussed this topic here on Epic before. It seems yours is a common belief. Actually, though, in arc to arc transitions, when using ILE (inside leg extension) or OLR (outside leg relaxation) to recruit the turn forces to facilitate the transition, a wider stance can promote a faster transition. It has to do with the larger separation of the POB (point of balance) from the POP (point of pressure) that occurs post ILE or OLR. It's creating that divergence of the POB from the POP that ILE and OLR are designed to do. The wider that stance, the greater the resultant divergence will be. The greater the divergence, the faster one's body will cross over into the new turn.

It's easy to test indoors. Stand with feet locked together, equal weight on each foot, then without moving your CM laterally, relax one leg. Then do it again with your feet about 3 feet apart. Time how quickly you hit the floor with each variation.

There's another factor that can lend to quicker edge changes with a wider stance, but I'll let you digest this one first.
Thank you Rick.
post #67 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Rosenfeld View Post
TDK:
You are using different words that I would say do not mean the same thing. There is no discussion about athletic stance here as it pertains to tennis. Although I imagine there is a point where the stance in tennis is too wide for quick lateral movement. In tennis we are trying to begin movement from a static position.

In skiing we are talking about fairly constant bodymovement and about changing edges. It cannot be compared with tennis.

Wide stance has to slow down the change from edge to edge.

Lou
The challange in tennis is to get out of that static position you are talking about. You need to move not just stand there. As for the stance width check out Martina in the back ground here:
http://sports.topeverything.com/defa...nt&ID=EA342676
post #68 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P1G8i37s5Fo&feature=related

Here is a guy who skis with parallel shins.
Hey Rick & Biowolf -

Take a look at this fellows Stance-Width in many of his Left turns vs Right turns. He seems to favor a narrow stance in his Right turns and a wider stance for Left turns. Interesting...

.ma
post #69 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
Ever see a world class slalom waterskier on two skis?
Funny remark.... yes, actually I have. Many times.... as they partisipate in jumping competitions . Waterskiing is highly different but since you want to make a direct comparisson..... why do you use two skis when you ski on snow? Why dont you use just one like when you waterski!
post #70 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Did I see a pivot? Someone told me that WC skiers don't pivot. :
Did you see an A-frame? Someone told me that A-frames are slow!
post #71 of 83
We're getting away from the topic of this thread, but as a brief aside:

1) In response to Tdk6, I was just trying to make a point that narrow stance can be a benefit in slalom re. 'tippiness', agility, and ability to put your BOS closer to the pin. And I disagree - I think waterskiing is very similar to skiing: CM inside the arc, CM crosses over the BOS; tipping the ski over, increasing edge angle to decrease radius; four planes of balance, similar pressure control skills, etc, etc, etc... Perhaps this is why Warren Witherall was so effective as a ski coach (he was originally a waterskier)?

2) Wide stance confers greater lateral stability but impairs mobility and ability to tip inside the arc. In general, the faster you go, the wider your stance gets as a natural response to speed and external forces (i.e. DH).

3) Stance width is fluid re. response to speed, radius, snow, and tactics. Advocating for wide stance as an absolute good in all situations limits adaptation, quickness, versatility, and skill development.

4) Stance should be in relation to the skier's build, biomechanics, and preference (proprioception). As long as the feet can work independently, who cares?

5) Most elite skiers show more vertical stance separation rather than 'width' separation. This is a result of the inside foot moving 'up' and out of the way to allow the CM to move well inside the arc.

Back to the OP .
post #72 of 83
IMO, the static stance width test doesn't do much (if anything) to simulate what happens when moving on skis.

Take 2 SL Skiers. Narrow Stance Skier (NSS) has a 6" of horizontal separation between his skis at the transition, but 24" of vertical separation at the apex. Wide Stance Skier (WSS) has 24" of horizontal separation at the transition and 24" of vertical separation at the apex. If all else is equal will one of these two be quicker getting to the finish?
post #73 of 83
The first few frames of this video show quite nicely how horizontal separation at the transition is converted into vertical separation at the apex:
http://youcanski.com/video/paerson_sl2.m1v
post #74 of 83
Getting back to the OP's topic, maybe this pic will help to answer Ron's question to Bud.

Apologies, it's a picture of a picture.

Britt Janyk, winning run at Aspen 08 DH.

You can see the use of a-framing above the gate to adjust direction/trajectory. It's a functional/tactical application of technique. It also a reflection of her natural alignment and movement patterns (as referred to in my post #35).

The athlete is using one of a host of intuitive/automated motor skills to get the job done. To quote Steve Norris PhD, think of it as a reflection of physical literacy. It's not a judged sport, rather it's from A to B as fast as possible without falling .
525x525px-LL-vbattach3345.jpg
post #75 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
Hey Rick & Biowolf -

Take a look at this fellows Stance-Width in many of his Left turns vs Right turns. He seems to favor a narrow stance in his Right turns and a wider stance for Left turns. Interesting...

.ma
Michael, nice catch. No, I hadn't noticed it. I attention was overwhelmed by the pivots.

He certainly does seem to have a different approach to his left and right turns. Narrows up much more through the transition as he transitions into a right turn than he does transitioning into a left turn. As the camera is situated to his right, some clear shot captures show how wide his stance remains as he transitions into a left turn. Freeze frame at neutral on turns where he's not entering a combination (flush or hairpin) the wide separation is striking.

Interesting indeed, as it seems to indicate that either approach (wide or narrow through the transition) can be used with stellar effectiveness. jdistefa said it well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa
Stance should be in relation to the skier's build, biomechanics, and preference (proprioception). As long as the feet can work independently, who cares?
Friends don't let friends get lost in the trees, at the expense of stepping back and seeing the forest.
post #76 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P1G8i37s5Fo&feature=related

Here is a guy who skis with parallel shins.

Wonna mess with him ?

Mamma mia !!!
Well perhaps we live in parallel universes with different definitions of parallel.

Pause the video at the first turn: 0:22 seconds;2nd turn 0:23; 3rd turn 0:24 and at 0:26 seconds. The shins are not parallel in my universe.
post #77 of 83
This was just posted in Ski clip, what do you guys think? thread in ski instruction and coaching.
I think this is what the 0P carver_hk is referring to about parallel shins in the video when he does the slalom turns.
(You might want to turn the volume down...)

post #78 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P1G8i37s5Fo&feature=related

Here is a guy who skis with parallel shins.

Wonna mess with him ?

Mamma mia !!!
You may want to watch again and in slow motion so you can see that many times he does not have parallel shins!!
post #79 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
You may want to watch again and in slow motion so you can see that many times he does not have parallel shins!!
Many times there are no parallel shins but the interesting part would be to find out where he is a-framing, where he has allmost parallel shins and where he is skiing with perfectly parallel shins. Any thaughts?
post #80 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
IMO, the static stance width test doesn't do much (if anything) to simulate what happens when moving on skis.

Take 2 SL Skiers. Narrow Stance Skier (NSS) has a 6" of horizontal separation between his skis at the transition, but 24" of vertical separation at the apex. Wide Stance Skier (WSS) has 24" of horizontal separation at the transition and 24" of vertical separation at the apex. If all else is equal will one of these two be quicker getting to the finish?
What do you think? IMO there are too many variables involved for ever proving which one would be faster.

Lets look at when a wide stance is good. A wide stance porvides you with much quicker counter movements to side ways forces. If you stand on the floor with two persons on each side grabbing your arms and trying to pull you sideways randomly you will last a lot longer with a wide and low stance than if you were standing with your feet closer together. Standing with your feet glued together would be the worst option. In sports like karate where quick forward and aft movements are required there needs to be separation between the legs in that direction. In judo and wrestling where you dont try to avoid contact a wide stance is used. When we ski we are only subjected to sideway forces. Usually we can controll the situation and call the shots ourselves by desideing when to turn as that is when the side way forces kick in. In situations like that its possible to widen the stance as the forces kick in. This is possible to do when we free ski under normal sircumstances at moderate speed but on a icy racing course at high speed we cannot allways be prepared for all the sideway forces lurking to throw us off balance and we need to have controll over our balance at all times and also to be able to react lightning fast to shifts in point of pressure.

I had the opportunity to watch some great jr racers lay dawn rr-tracks while rippin on a totally flat and smooth closed for racing groomer in austria this year. To my agony those kids were producing two perfectly cut tracks wide apart. They were diverging some but not much and double as wide as mine. The reason for that was that as they came through apex their inside knee is tucked inside their inside armpit while the outside leg is fully extended. Like our home town boy here:
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=D22C1D7B

Note the parallel shins.
post #81 of 83
post #82 of 83
Sorry, nobody home!
post #83 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Well perhaps we live in parallel universes with different definitions of parallel.

Pause the video at the first turn: 0:22 seconds;2nd turn 0:23; 3rd turn 0:24 and at 0:26 seconds. The shins are not parallel in my universe.
No parallel universes just the routine colapse of the wave function.

Yeah you are right. Lots of A frames there almost all of them in his right turns. It s his weaker side . He also applies a wider stance there to get that outside ski on edge.

I wanterd to post the first run in the first place. Its much better IMO

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RtQiDCEXnQ4
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