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How to achieve parallel shin?

I am kind of get stuck in parallel shin. Getting it right seems give me more power. But what would be the right move?
flex inside leg + extend outside leg or
find the gripping followed by powering both legs into the turn making sure that they are parallel or
what else?
For me, getting parallel shins is a movement which I do from my inside foot. I simply tip my inside foot to the outside and allow the outside foot to follow the tipping movement and they end up parallel.
You should really think about parallel skis rather than parallel shins, i.e. both skis going the same direction through the whole arc - no splitting, no reverse 'v'.

I would agree with Max - roll the inside ski on the inside edge by putting your 'pinky toe to the snow'.

Don't look at parallel shins as an outcome - it is a transient effect, primarily at the top and bottom of the arc, of running both skis on roughly the same edge angle.

You will almost never have both skis running the same edge angle during the loading phase of the turn. If you make parallel shins your goal through the whole arc you will actually reduce your capacity for increasing the edge angle in the middle of the turn by blocking movement of the hip inside the arc.

Hope that helps!

Regards,
Matt
Parallel shins are not the goal. Tipping the inside ski like a mofo : is the goal, parallel shins are a happy byproduct. When you look at pictures or video of yourself, don't look at positions, look at movements (you know which ones ).
carver hk,

Parallel shins are the result of good skiing movements and shins that are not parallel are a visual cue for ineffective movements.

RW
According to experts in physics, mathematics and geometry, it is not (theoretically) possible to make a turn on skis with both parallel shins and parallel skis. (In reality, some "cheating" via steering may make it appear to be possible.)
See some (lengthy!) discussions here:

And here is an interesting suggestion as to why ski divergence and convergence may actually be necessary in certain situations:
http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=96
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ron White carver hk, Parallel shins are the result of good skiing movements and shins that are not parallel are a visual cue for ineffective movements. RW
Sorry, but this is simply not true as a generalization.
Thank you all for sharing your thought. I also checked youcanski's article. I guess I ll concentrate on tipping inside skis & extending the outside leg.
It is pointing the inside knee towards the inside of the turn and rolling the inside ski/foot to the LTE (Little toe Edge) that helps.

But inside knee is extremely important. it does take some discipline to keep your knees apart and avoid undue knee angulation of the outside leg.

Parallel Legs and Shins

The edge angle is created primarily by inclination with extended outside leg. There is almost no knee angulation used in GS and it is kept to a minimum in Slalom. Straighter (more extended) outside leg creates a much stronger, biomechanically sound position that helps to withstand huge forces produced in modern turns. This position allows the skeleton, rather than the muscles and joints, to take the load, which greatly reduces the chances of injuries to a knee joint. The top group of athletes has on average much less injuries then the racers at lower level, mostly due to more biomechanically sound technique.
Inclination with parallel legs allows for the Center of Mass to travel by much shorter, more direct path through the gates. Combination of parallel legs/shins and parallel skis allows for both skis to carve. All of that result in significant time gains.

Movement of the inside leg or matching the shins for effective arcs

July 2006 Greg Gurshman / Photo montages by Stan Petrash
As I have mentioned in other articles on this site, the active use of both skis in the turn serves as one of the fundamentals of modern technique. While the outside ski plays the leading role in the initial phase of the turn, the action of the inside ski is crucial in carving the final part of an arc.
In this article I would like to focus on particular technical nuances of carving the arc of a turn with the help of inside ski.
First of all it is necessary to mention a very simple fact, which is well known to coaches and racers – the force of gravity and inertia at the exit of the turn, when used properly, always provide for more speed than what skier can create by any special movements or muscular efforts. A clean optimally rounded arc of a so-called “pulling radius” (a comma shape) allows for the most efficient transfer of energy from one turn to another. In order for such a transfer to happen, when teaching modern technique, the emphasis should be placed on having parallel shins and an equal degree of edging, with both skis drawing arcs of concentric circles. This is, indeed, an ideal model. It is achieved, in reality, only with a certain degree of approximation. Nevertheless, racers should really strive for ideal carving with both skis edged equally simply because it is the fastest way to make turns in the course.
However, if you look carefully, you can noticequite often that even the elite racers are not able to start the turn with the shins in parallel position. There can be a number of reasons for this. For example:
• Constantly trying to get the outside ski as far as possible to the side out from under the body in order to get it on the right line can result in a slight A-frame.
• Possibly there is an insufficient projection of racer’s center of mass forward and over the skis at the moment of beginning of the new turn (i.e., a poor re-centering after the previous turn).
• Sometimes the cause of A-framing can simply be low speed, which does not allow starting the turn by inclination with the parallel shins.
Whatever the cause may be, racers are often caught in the A-frame position with shins being far from parallel in the initial phase of the turn as I demonstrate in the photo below.

In this picture my left leg is extended and a high edge angle is created with the outside ski. However, my inside ski is edged significantly less and is sliding almost flat on the snow. Trying to continue the turn with this position of the legs would not bring me even close to carving concentric arcs.
Only two scenarios,both bad, are possible with such leg positions:
1) Either the inside ski gets more loaded, goes practically straight and “unlocks” the outside ski from the arc. The outside ski is then drags through the rest of the turn, which contributes to loss of speed.
2) Or the skier manages to keep pressure on the outside ski (which is quite difficult to do) and the inside ski floats and slows down the turn.
In the latter case, Problem #2, the edge of the outside ski locks excessively, which also contributes to loss of speed in the turn. In neither case will the speed be maintained with an effective transfer of inertia into the next turn.
The solution to the problem is obvious – both skis need to work in unison while carving the arcs. However, this is not very easily accomplished on a consistent basis.
The natural reaction of skier in this situation is to lean on the practically flat inside ski, which is “conveniently” located under the skier’s center of mass. However, to effectively complete the turn, the skier needs to achieve the position with both skis equally edged. In order to do that skier’s body needs to move inside of the turn so the skis will end up on the side of the body with the projection of CM being well inside the arc of the turn. In this example, which can be used as a generic template for everyone trying to grasp shin matching element of technique, the only way I could achieve it is this. I keep most of the pressure on the outside ski (about 70-80%) while continuing to move my body inside the turn by bending the inside knee and gradually moving it inside towards the center of the turn as demonstrated in this picture:
It is very important to begin the movement of the inside knee at least in the second phase of the turn when in the fall line. At the same time, more weight transfers onto the inside ski. Despite the fact that the parallel shin position is not fully achieved at this point, we can see in the picture that the shovel of the my inside ski is engaged and starting to carve. The radius of this arc is significantly larger than the radius of the arc being drawn by the outside ski. In order to reduce the difference in radiuses of the arcs, I needs to continue moving the inside knee to increase the edge angle of the inside ski as demonstrated in this picture:

By the time a skier exits the fall line, the shins have to be close to parallel. It is central to remember that the ski tips should be level. Excessive sagittal split, with one ski ahead of the other, does not allow the effective loading of the inside ski so that its edge is locked into the snow. If the shins are parallel and the saggital split of the skis is minimal, the skis carve the clean arcs without interfering with each other.The inside ski is always bent less and carves the arc of the greater radius. However, the skis do not cross even though their tips may get closer to each other in the final phase of the turn.

As seen in the next picture, I achieve near perfect parallel shin position in the completion phase of the turn. At this point, almost equally edged skis are positioned far from under my center of mass.

Right in this phase of the turn the maximum load is placed on the inside ski. In order to maintain a dynamically balanced position at the final phase of the turn, it is recommended to feel more pressure on the heel of the outside foot while simultaneously feeling the front of the boot. The contact between the shin of the inside leg and the tong of the boot is increased. At this point skier should clearly feel the pressure building on the outside part of the inside foot in the area of ball of the foot.
We can clearly see the above-described movement demonstrated by one of the World Cup leaders, Didier Cuche of Switzerland, while free skiing on a glacier

The movement resulting in matched shins is quite apparent.
Let’s see how these movements are applied by World Cup racers in a race course.

In this photo montage, we see a winner of a number of World Cup races, Kalle Pallander of Finland. It is easy to notice that Kalle begins the turn with less than parallel shins and not equally edged skis. In fact, the inside ski is almost flat and the inside hip is quite far from the snow (frame 1). However, in the process of making the turn (frames 2 and 3), Kalle moves inside, in the direction of center of the turn. At the same time, he moves the inside knee in toward the center of the turn, which results in increased edging of the inside ski. By the beginning of the final phase of the turn (frame3 at the gate), Kalle matches his shins and achieves near perfect body position with skis almost equally edged. At this moment, the displacement of the body inside the turn is evident if we compare and contrast Kalle’s inside hip position in frames 1 and 3. In frame 4 the arc is practically completed and Kalle begins unlocking the edges by moving the CM forward. This movement results, again, in an unmatched position of shins, which happens because the edge of the outside ski starts getting unlocked first while more weight moves for a very short moment onto the outside edge of the inside ski.
The next montage can also serve as an example of achieving the correct position of shins and skis at the right phase of the turn:

Here we have the very promising young Swiss racer Daniel Albrieght. I suppose that it is evident from this montage that Daniel, like Pallander, strives to maintain his speed in the final phase of the turn by moving the inside knee and matching the shins.
Considering that carving an arc takes not more than 0.5 second, the movement of the knee into matched shins position has to be performed at an instinctive level. Therefore, it requires some targeted technical work and fine tuning.
First of all, it is very important that the movement is not reduced to just moving the knee, but takes place concurrently with the displacement of the body inside the turn. Just the knee movement will result in excessive edging of the inside ski or catching the edge instead of carving the final phase of the turn with both skis.
I would like to share one simple drill for developing shin matching movement. Initially, this drill should be performed at low speed on a relatively flat slope.
Using minimal inclination of the body inside the turn with a wide stance, the inside knee is moved to matching shins position and kept in this position throughout the half of an arc as demonstrated by the author in the next series of frames:

The difficulty of this drill is exaggerated by extremely wide position of the skis. It requires a certain level of balance and precise distribution of pressure between the heel of the outside foot and the ball of the inside foot. The sense of contact between the inside shin and the tong of the boot is also very important, because it allows you to keep the ski tips even.
Without keeping the tips close to an even position, it is almost impossible to engage the shovel of the inside ski, a proper movement that allows you to minimize the difference in the radiuses of the arcs carved by both skis. It is very important that, at low speed, this drill is not reduced to swinging knees from side to side as often suggested by some coaches and instructors. Such movement creates a wrong biomechanical pattern, which will have to be changed later as racer moves to higher speeds. In order to avoid it, the outside leg should be almost fully extended while doing this drill:

Preformed correctly this drill instills proper skeletal alignment used in the regular turns. While working on matching the shins with the help of this drill or just making the turns on a groomed medium slope, racers can feel that all of these movements are too simple and come way too easy. I often have to discourage these types of illusions. All it takes is to move to a steeper hill and increase speed. Then, matching the shins and a timely engagement and pressuring of the inside ski becomes a very difficult task. In the race course, the task is even more difficult. Therefore it is worth spending time working on matching the shins in free skiing as well as in the course, gradually increasing the speed and the steepness of the slope. Proper timing and symmetry on both sides have to be achieved before moving to higher speed and more difficult terrain.
There are some facets of this article that I would disagree with.

1) IMO, parallel knees throughout the whole arc is not the holy grail of skiing. Running the best line as cleanly as possible with the CM inside the arc is the name of the game. If the inside ski is interfering with this goal, then by all means look at it. But the common appearance of a-framing through the loading phase (women > men) shouldn't be interpreted as a problem that must be 'fixed'. In other words, don't confuse form with function.

2) Over-emphasis on parallel knee/shin as an outcome unto itself takes away movement/balance/proprioception that should be focused on the outside ski, and can limit global relaxation that helps speed.

3) Over emphasis on parallel knee/shin can block the hip from moving naturally inside the arc - remember, this is where most of your edge angle comes from!

4) The article shows an exercise where 'matching the ski tips' is required. This certainly allows the shins to be parallel, but also blocks the hip from moving inside by limiting or eliminating separation at the pelvis. The result? As you can see, the demonstrator's hips are on the arc, not inside the arc. Is the goal to have parallel shins or is the goal to ski well? This is a great example of doing a drill well, but skiing like sh*t.

5) Pictures are a poor representation of a dynamic process. Athletes are constantly adjusting edge angle as they look ahead re. their direction/trajectory. This happens at the top of the arc and through the fall line and can result in the transient appearance of a-framing since this adjustment is primarily through the edge angle of the outside/working ski.

6) I really disagree with the concept of "pressuring" the inside ski.

IMO ,
Matt
But the common appearance of a-framing through the loading phase (women > men) shouldn't be interpreted as a problem that must be 'fixed'. In other words, don't confuse form with function.::

This is, indeed, an ideal model. It is achieved, in reality, only with a certain degree of approximation.

Nevertheless, racers should really strive for ideal carving with both skis edged equally simply because it is the fastest way to make turns in the course.

However, if you look carefully, you can noticequite often that even the elite racers are not able to start the turn with the shins in parallel position.

There can be a number of reasons for this. For example:
• Constantly trying to get the outside ski as far as possible to the side out from under the body in order to get it on the right line can result in a slight A-frame.
• Possibly there is an insufficient projection of racer’s center of mass forward and over the skis at the moment of beginning of the new turn (i.e., a poor re-centering after the previous turn).
• Sometimes the cause of A-framing can simply be low speed, which does not allow starting the turn by inclination with the parallel shins.
Whatever the cause may be, racers are often caught in the A-frame position with shins being far from parallel in the initial phase of the turn

6) I really disagree with the concept of "pressuring" the inside ski.

Did you mean to say "overpressuring" the inside ski"?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jdistefa You should really think about parallel skis rather than parallel shins, i.e. both skis going the same direction through the whole arc - no splitting, no reverse 'v'. I would agree with Max - roll the inside ski on the inside edge by putting your 'pinky toe to the snow'. Don't look at parallel shins as an outcome - it is a transient effect, primarily at the top and bottom of the arc, of running both skis on roughly the same edge angle. You will almost never have both skis running the same edge angle during the loading phase of the turn. If you make parallel shins your goal through the whole arc you will actually reduce your capacity for increasing the edge angle in the middle of the turn by blocking movement of the hip inside the arc. Hope that helps! Regards, Matt
If your skis are parallel and your edge angles match and your shins are not parallel I would think this is a pretty good indication of an alignment problem.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman If your skis are parallel and your edge angles match and your shins are not parallel I would think this is a pretty good indication of an alignment problem.
Possibly, but I am not so dogmatic about things .

If the ski is working well through the whole arc, great. If the ski isn't working well, then test some canting strips at 0.5 degree increments.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman But the common appearance of a-framing through the loading phase (women > men) shouldn't be interpreted as a problem that must be 'fixed'. In other words, don't confuse form with function.::This is, indeed, an ideal model. It is achieved, in reality, only with a certain degree of approximation. Nevertheless, racers should really strive for ideal carving with both skis edged equally simply because it is the fastest way to make turns in the course.However, if you look carefully, you can noticequite often that even the elite racers are not able to start the turn with the shins in parallel position. There can be a number of reasons for this. For example: Constantly trying to get the outside ski as far as possible to the side out from under the body in order to get it on the right line can result in a slight A-frame. Possibly there is an insufficient projection of racer’s center of mass forward and over the skis at the moment of beginning of the new turn (i.e., a poor re-centering after the previous turn). Sometimes the cause of A-framing can simply be low speed, which does not allow starting the turn by inclination with the parallel shins. Whatever the cause may be, racers are often caught in the A-frame position with shins being far from parallel in the initial phase of the turn 6) I really disagree with the concept of "pressuring" the inside ski. Did you mean to say "overpressuring" the inside ski"?
No, I meant "pressuring" the ski. The use of that word suggests conscious, active loading of the inside ski which, with reasonable exceptions, is silly .

For what it's worth - my posts in the "Balancing on the outside ski" thread....
Here: http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...00&postcount=9
And here: http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=21

There is a broad spectrum of individual lower extremity biomechanics, both in terms of static measurement (knee mass position) and dynamic movement (range of motion, joint laxity, thrust angles). Differences within genders (bell curve) and between genders (q-angle) mean that you're going to get a heterogeneous appearance of lower extremity movement. This shouldn't be confused with function.

The goal isn't to make everyone look the same, the goal is to have people balance well and move well from a good platform.... And be able to run a clean ski with relaxation, efficiency, and a big sweet spot. Recognizing individual differences in biomechanics, physical capacity, technique, and tactics is the first step in accepting that not everyone 'should' have parallel shins.

Lastly, the people I see trying sooooo hard to have parallel shins all the time tend to ski very rigidly, tight, and with paradoxically limited lateral range. Putting the pinky toe to the snow and keeping the inside ski in contact with the snow is IMO the only active move you need. Otherwise, the focus should be on the outside ski, letting the COM travel inside the arc, rhythm, and flow.
Who assumes the edge angles are the same when the shins are parallel?

This is a horrible mistake to make.
I find it's better to split my attention, and only consider whether or not my shins are parallel as part of the big picture. Concentrating on making the skis work for me, what they are doing with the snow is the only thing I have ever had success with. If I try and concentrate on any other individual thing like inside knee, inside ski edge, tip lead, etcetera, I just ski terribly, but when I look at it holistically, trying to visualize everything I'm doing at once and realize that my shins are not parallel, I am able to somehow cause them to be more parallel and ski better.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Who assumes the edge angles are the same when the shins are parallel? This is a horrible mistake to make.
Explain this one to me? What other point would there be of having parallel shins? Is it not to have your skis tracking together with matched edge angles???

the oppsoite perspective would be A--frame normally causes unmatched edge angles possibly diverging ski where the skis are not tracking together.

Whatever the cause may be, racers are often caught in the A-frame position with shins being far from parallel in the initial phase of the turn as I demonstrate in the photo below.

In this picture my left leg is extended and a high edge angle is created with the outside ski. However, my inside ski is edged significantly less and is sliding almost flat on the snow. Trying to continue the turn with this position of the legs would not bring me even close to carving concentric arcs.
Only two scenarios,both bad, are possible with such leg positions:
1) Either the inside ski gets more loaded, goes practically straight and “unlocks” the outside ski from the arc. The outside ski is then drags through the rest of the turn, which contributes to loss of speed.
2) Or the skier manages to keep pressure on the outside ski (which is quite difficult to do) and the inside ski floats and slows down the turn.
In the latter case, Problem #2, the edge of the outside ski locks excessively, which also contributes to loss of speed in the turn. In neither case will the speed be maintained with an effective transfer of inertia into the next turn.
The solution to the problem is obvious – both skis need to work in unison while carving the arcs. However, this is not very easily accomplished on a consistent basis.
The natural reaction of skier in this situation is to lean on the practically flat inside ski, which is “conveniently” located under the skier’s center of mass. However, to effectively complete the turn, the skier needs to achieve the position with both skis equally edged. In order to do that skier’s body needs to move inside of the turn so the skis will end up on the side of the body with the projection of CM being well inside the arc of the turn. In this example, which can be used as a generic template for everyone trying to grasp shin matching element of technique, the only way I could achieve it is this. I keep most of the pressure on the outside ski (about 70-80%) while continuing to move my body inside the turn by bending the inside knee and gradually moving it inside towards the center of the turn as demonstrated in this picture:
It is very important to begin the movement of the inside knee at least in the second phase of the turn when in the fall line. At the same time, more weight transfers onto the inside ski. Despite the fact that the parallel shin position is not fully achieved at this point, we can see in the picture that the shovel of the my inside ski is engaged and starting to carve. The radius of this arc is significantly larger than the radius of the arc being drawn by the outside ski. In order to reduce the difference in radiuses of the arcs, I needs to continue moving the inside knee to increase the edge angle of the inside ski as demonstrated in this picture:

By the time a skier exits the fall line, the shins have to be close to parallel. It is central to remember that the ski tips should be level. Excessive sagittal split, with one ski ahead of the other, does not allow the effective loading of the inside ski so that its edge is locked into the snow. If the shins are parallel and the saggital split of the skis is minimal, the skis carve the clean arcs without interfering with each other.The inside ski is always bent less and carves the arc of the greater radius. However, the skis do not cross even though their tips may get closer to each other in the final phase of the turn.

As seen in the next picture, I achieve near perfect parallel shin position in the completion phase of the turn. At this point, almost equally edged skis are positioned far from under my center of mass.

I would agree with BigE .

The answer relates to between individual differences in:

- tibia vara
- natural center of knee mass position
- q-angle
- pelvic width
- stance width
- amount of separation / lead change

Plus:

- pitch
- phase of turn
- vantage point of observer

Lastly, the above example is frankly a crappy one. The stance width is too great for the skier & arc, and you must have some degree of natural separation and sagittal plane (which incidentally is spelled incorrectly in the quoted article) lead change to allow the hip to move well inside the arc. The skier in the above picture is blocked from moving more inside by a) excessive lateral stance width (rather than 'vertical' stance width), and b) skiing square which keeps the hip on the arc rather than inside it.

There is a major conceptual error in this work that you keep quoting. I would suggest referring to Joubert instead. Then again, if the goal is to ski on the inside ski, this is a great example .
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jdistefa I would agree with BigE . The answer relates to between individual differences in: - tibia vara - natural center of knee mass position - q-angle - pelvic width - stance width - amount of separation / lead change Plus: - pitch - phase of turn - vantage point of observer Lastly, the above example is frankly a crappy one. The stance width is too great for the skier & arc, and you must have some degree of natural separation and sagittal plane (which incidentally is spelled incorrectly in the quoted article) lead change to allow the hip to move well inside the arc. The skier in the above picture is blocked from moving more inside by a) excessive lateral stance width (rather than 'vertical' stance width), and b) skiing square which keeps the hip on the arc rather than inside it. There is a major conceptual error in this work that you keep quoting. I would suggest referring to Joubert instead. Then again, if the goal is to ski on the inside ski, this is a great example .
I never said I agreed with his tip lead statement, I don't. I believe tip lead develops naturally as your angles progressively increase.

He is not on his inside ski! And when you start picking on spelling, I am really suspect of the balance of your comments!

Your list is comprised mostly of items which should be taken out of the equation by proper stance alignment by a competent boot fitter. Pelvic width, stance width should ahve no bearing on whether you have matched edge angles or parallele shins. Unless you are syaing that only skiers and racers with the exact ideal physiology can makre succesfull carved turns????

you are saying because of a persons physiology, they can' ski with parallel shins???? Ya if they are out of alignment as I said before.

- tibia vara
- natural center of knee mass position
- q-angle
- pelvic width
- stance width
- amount of separation / lead change
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman I never said I agreed with his tip lead statement, I don't. I believe tip lead develops naturally as your angles progressively increase.
Ok. What does that say about the validity of the rest of the information?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman He is not on his inside ski!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman And when you start picking on spelling, I am really suspect of the balance of your comments!
That's an interesting comment since you haven't replied to the substance of any of my posts. I see no problem with commenting on spelling - it speaks to the credibility of the information. Would you publish something using technical terms that are spelled incorrectly?

I'm not being argumentative, I simply think that this reference is at best misleading.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jdistefa Ok. What does that say about the validity of the rest of the information? I disagree, and he talks about this in the article. You should judge my comments on the basis of their content. I see no problem with commenting on spelling - it speaks to the credibility of the information. Would you publish something using technical terms that are spelled incorrectly? I'm not being argumentative, I simply think that this information is at best misleading.
Just because you don't agree with one statement (and many believe no tip lead is desirable and possible, Although I am not one of them, does not mean you need to throw out the baby with the bath water.

I happen to agree with much of what he has written from my own skiing and my fortunate exposure to one of the best coaches in the USSA system.

Spelling and one idea you disagree with does not negate the entire article. On this forum wih that attitude you best never make a typo yourself!!!:
Sigh....

As I've done my best to outline, there are several ideas that I disagree with and I'm open to discussing them if you want to.

I think I raised a fair point about spelling in a quasi-professional article.

The ball's in your court if you want to discuss something content related .
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman Your list is comprised mostly of items which should be taken out of the equation by proper stance alignment by a competent boot fitter.
Oh dear. Sorry, not the case.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman Pelvic width, stance width should ahve no bearing on whether you have matched edge angles or parallele shins.
See my response to your first missive.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman Unless you are syaing that only skiers and racers with the exact ideal physiology can makre succesfull carved turns????
Nope, didn't say that .

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman you are saying because of a persons physiology, they can' ski with parallel shins????
Yes, absolutely!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman Ya if they are out of alignment as I said before.
Not necessarily .
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ron White carver hk, Parallel shins are the result of good skiing movements and shins that are not parallel are a visual cue for ineffective movements. RW
I have to disagree with this statement.

This is a blanket statement that does not take into account tactical movements seen in many elite skiers where "A" framing appears.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jdistefa There are some facets of this article that I would disagree with. 1) IMO, parallel knees throughout the whole arc is not the holy grail of skiing. Running the best line as cleanly as possible with the CM inside the arc is the name of the game. If the inside ski is interfering with this goal, then by all means look at it. But the common appearance of a-framing through the loading phase (women > men) shouldn't be interpreted as a problem that must be 'fixed'. In other words, don't confuse form with function. 2) Over-emphasis on parallel knee/shin as an outcome unto itself takes away movement/balance/proprioception that should be focused on the outside ski, and can limit global relaxation that helps speed. 3) Over emphasis on parallel knee/shin can block the hip from moving naturally inside the arc - remember, this is where most of your edge angle comes from! 4) The article shows an exercise where 'matching the ski tips' is required. This certainly allows the shins to be parallel, but also blocks the hip from moving inside by limiting or eliminating separation at the pelvis. The result? As you can see, the demonstrator's hips are on the arc, not inside the arc. Is the goal to have parallel shins or is the goal to ski well? This is a great example of doing a drill well, but skiing like sh*t. 5) Pictures are a poor representation of a dynamic process. Athletes are constantly adjusting edge angle as they look ahead re. their direction/trajectory. This happens at the top of the arc and through the fall line and can result in the transient appearance of a-framing since this adjustment is primarily through the edge angle of the outside/working ski. 6) I really disagree with the concept of "pressuring" the inside ski. IMO , Matt
Agree with Matt here!

Let's not confuse function with form.

I have observed many skiers doing more harm than good to their turns trying to exagerate this parallel shin or inside knee tipping.

Who says or has quantitative proof that parallel shins make faster turns???
This is a pretty bold unfounded, unprovable statement don't you think?

Just like a "stivot" movement helps cut off the top of a GS turn, many times an A frame is a tactical holding onto the old turn while the new outside ski is aligning for the new turn and readies to pounce quickly, cutting off the top of a turn. (Sorry if I didn't explain this thought clearly)

Not necessarily an alignment issue at all IMO.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman Explain this one to me? What other point would there be of having parallel shins? Is it not to have your skis tracking together with matched edge angles???
Well, this is the question that came up in the 18-page marathon on Snowheads: if the edge angles are equal, surely the the radii are equal? (Assuming there are no alignment inequalities, which, as BigE mentioned, is a big assumption to make.)

In which case, geometry tells us that it is impossible for the skis to remain parallel. Eventually, in theory, they will converge, according to this diagram:

(Of course, geometrical theory and real-life skiing situations are not necessarily exactly the same things. Nevertheless it raises lots of questions...)
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Atomicman Explain this one to me? What other point would there be of having parallel shins? Is it not to have your skis tracking together with matched edge angles???

I'll throw this out for food for thought:

We want parallel shins because it is the biomechanically strongest position to be in.

When skiing we want our feet to support our mass. Assuming we are predominatley balanced on the outside leg...the resultant force should act up through our outside leg: ie, our outside leg is parallel to the resultant.

Now of course some weight is on the inside ski...but how much...basically it is the weight of the inside leg itself. Now to be biomechanically strong, then the inside leg should also be parallel to the resultant force acting on it (assuming for a second it is its own independent body)....and since the inside leg is travelling at the same rate as the outside, on the same arc, and since it is relativley of equal denisty etc....it would make sense that its resultant would be parallel to the other.

Now of course there is alot of assuming going on there....but generally it is true, and generally we see parallel shins in good skiing...but not always, and not exactley.....

I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts on this.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 Now of course some weight is on the inside ski...but how much...basically it is the weight of the inside leg itself. Now to be biomechanically strong, then the inside leg should also be parallel to the resultant force acting on it (assuming for a second it is its own independent body)....and since the inside leg is travelling at the same rate as the outside, on the same arc, and since it is relativley of equal denisty etc....it would make sense that its resultant would be parallel to the other.
Wow, that's pretty good Skidude! Interestingly, it's exactly along the lines of where I was just heading in the discussion of balance and stability. I think it's great to start off with fundamental, basic mechanical ideas and work from there toward a real world understanding. I think your basic idea is right on as the starting point.

The next step is to look at what a skier is really trying to accomplish, what factors interfere with their goals, what positions and motions are best to accommodate disruptions to their plan, etc.

"Parallel Shins" is merely a starting point that gets us in the ballpark. Geometric realities (as the Snowheads thread explores) force us to make modifications as do balance and stability considerations. The best solution to a skier's genuine needs might not be a convenient geometric relationship.

.ma
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 I'll throw this out for food for thought: We want parallel shins because it is the biomechanically strongest position to be in. When skiing we want our feet to support our mass. Assuming we are predominatley balanced on the outside leg...the resultant force should act up through our outside leg: ie, our outside leg is parallel to the resultant. Now of course some weight is on the inside ski...but how much...basically it is the weight of the inside leg itself. Now to be biomechanically strong, then the inside leg should also be parallel to the resultant force acting on it (assuming for a second it is its own independent body)....and since the inside leg is travelling at the same rate as the outside, on the same arc, and since it is relativley of equal denisty etc....it would make sense that its resultant would be parallel to the other. Now of course there is alot of assuming going on there....but generally it is true, and generally we see parallel shins in good skiing...but not always, and not exactley..... I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts on this.
good food for thought! But i said skis have matched edge angles which is quite different from being parallel.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Martin Bell Well, this is the question that came up in the 18-page marathon on Snowheads: if the edge angles are equal, surely the the radii are equal? (Assuming there are no alignment inequalities, which, as BigE mentioned, is a big assumption to make.) In which case, geometry tells us that it is impossible for the skis to remain parallel. Eventually, in theory, they will converge, according to this diagram: (Of course, geometrical theory and real-life skiing situations are not necessarily exactly the same things. Nevertheless it raises lots of questions...)
Very true. but as you have pointed out how many turns do we make like the diagram? yep, none!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 ...Now to be biomechanically strong, then the inside leg should also be parallel to the resultant force acting on it (assuming for a second it is its own independent body)......
This is the original motive that drive me to perfect the parallel shin. I have no question on the outside leg as long as it stack up with the upper body. What interest me is before the outside leg is fully extended. I experimented with two scenarios:

1. ski like what max discribed. That's also what I learn. I extend the outside leg and get some skating force.
2. extend both inside and outside leg with shins as parallel as possible. I experienced some very strong skating force on this move.

As I said I m just playing with the various possibilities. Not sure if the experiments is valid or not.
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