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Balancing on the outside ski - Page 3

post #61 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
However, I think that some degree of outside foot dominance is required to maintain the step reflex - which relates to edge change, weight transfer, & rhythm. It also reflects how we're wired re. neuromuscular patterning.
I think perhaps you mean something else. :

The "step reflex" is a primitive reflex, and is abnormal in humans if it persists beyond infancy.

Infant reflexes

Possibly you mean postural reflexes?
post #62 of 87
Heh, I think he means the 'tipping reflex' as we all know that a skier should start at the base of the kinetic chain and work up!
post #63 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
But don't you think it becomes the more dominant skill in powder? We don't really have to consciously think about adjusting edge angles or worry much about rotary skills as much as a more active focus on PC.
Well i guess we're talking personal opinion here, but I no I don't think that the skill is anymore dominant in powder than it is on hard pack. However, some of the specific objectives may change per what I have written earlier in terms of inside/outside management, which is all tied to pressure management. I actually think that pressure management is easier and more thoughtless in powder than on hardpack. The reason is because the powder itself provides the feedback and you simply have to react to it. On hardpack there are many things related to pressure management which require directed actions, sometimes indirectly...which result in good or bad pressure management.

What I would say about powder also is that perhaps it is true that just about all skiers will EXPERIENCE and FEEL lots of changes in pressure, regardless of the actions they take in powder. In that sense, perhaps some skiers are more aware of all the pressure changes that occur, some knowing what to do with it and some not really knowing what to do with it. If those skiers basically are park and ride on hardpack, not experiencing anything related to pressure management, then skiing powder will be a wake up call to them that such a skill even exists and they will experience it for the first time. I think this is part of what you're getting at Bud.

On hardpack, you can ski along and do absolutely nothing, and experience little to know changes in pressure...or you can take actions which will harness and release the turn forces at your own bidding... If you know what you are doing, I claim you can experience even greater extremes of pressure on hardpack than you do in powder, but its really all on the skier to know how to harness those pressures, use them correctly, release them at the correct time, etc.. There is actually more to it there than in powder where it all just sorta happens and about all a skier has to do is react to it the same way they do when they hit a bump and flex-z-kneez.
post #64 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acrophobia View Post
I think perhaps you mean something else. :

The "step reflex" is a primitive reflex, and is abnormal in humans if it persists beyond infancy.

Infant reflexes

Possibly you mean postural reflexes?
I'm not referring to the neonatal/paediatric definition of step reflex, but rather the gait application of the term.

As the COM moves ahead of the BOS in linear gait there is an automatic move towards the new stance foot. You can demonstrate this in a crude way by pushing someone from behind without warning.

A pathological example of this phenomenon can be seen in Parkinson's patients who demonstrate a festinating gait - one possible explanation of this is that their 'forward leaning' or continuously toppling posture forces the stepping rate to increase in order to maintain balance. Whether this is centrally mediated is uncertain.

Re. skiing, Joubert referred to this natural tendency to switch stance feet (old ski to new ski, outside to outside) as a result of the COM crossing over the feet.
post #65 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
I'm not referring to the neonatal/paediatric definition of step reflex, but rather the gait application of the term.

As the COM moves ahead of the BOS in linear gait there is an automatic move towards the new stance foot. You can demonstrate this in a crude way by pushing someone from behind without warning.

A pathological example of this phenomenon can be seen in Parkinson's patients who demonstrate a festinating gait - one possible explanation of this is that their 'forward leaning' or continuously toppling posture forces the stepping rate to increase in order to maintain balance. Whether this is centrally mediated is uncertain.

Re. skiing, Joubert referred to this natural tendency to switch stance feet (old ski to new ski, outside to outside) as a result of the COM crossing over the feet.
"Step reflex" is a specific term describing the primitive, infantile reflex. You are referring to postural reflexes. Impaired postural reflexes are a cardinal feature of Parkinson disease, as your example notes.

In any case, while it is clear to me how muscle stretch and postural reflexes contribute to fore-aft balance, it is not at all clear how "neuromuscular patterning" contributes to outside foot dominance. Extreme lateral displacement of COM is not part of normal gait.
post #66 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acrophobia View Post
"Step reflex" is a specific term describing the primitive, infantile reflex. You are referring to postural reflexes. Impaired postural reflexes are a cardinal feature of Parkinson disease, as your example notes.

In any case, while it is clear to me how muscle stretch and postural reflexes contribute to fore-aft balance, it is not at all clear how "neuromuscular patterning" contributes to outside foot dominance. Extreme lateral displacement of COM is not part of normal gait.
To clarify again, I'm not using the phrase step reflex re. primitive reflexes - I'm well aware of what they are. The phrase has been used in the ski coaching lexicon for decades. Joubert (1960/70) is the first place it appeared in text, but I'm sure its use predates his writing. It would be interesting to know if the vernacular use of the term was originally misappropriated from the paediatric literature.

The simplest answer I can give you is that you walk on one foot, and you also ski on one foot. There is a natural rhythm of weight transfer in relation to the COM crossing over the feet. Displacement of the COM is not part of normal linear gait, but you can demonstrate skiing mechanics by simply running a figure eight pattern (which of course includes lateral displacement of the COM).

We certainly don't ambulate in a series of two footed hops, we're wired to be bipedal (ever wonder why there is a primitive step reflex?). Are you implying that we should ski two footed?

I assume you're a paediatrician ?
post #67 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
There is a natural rhythm of weight transfer in relation to the COM crossing over the feet.
I'm not so sure that is a 'natural' rhythm. I say this because of the effort it takes so many students to learn to transfer weight to the new outside ski. If anything I'd say its unnatural as many (most) beginners seem to want to keep their weight solidly over the new inside ski.
post #68 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I'm not so sure that is a 'natural' rhythm. I say this because of the effort it takes so many students to learn to transfer weight to the new outside ski. If anything I'd say its unnatural as many (most) beginners seem to want to keep their weight solidly over the new inside ski.
This is getting tiring. I'm talking about accomplished skiers.
post #69 of 87
Max501, I think that might be fear? A primitive reflex to perceived dangerous situations that could cause pain.
post #70 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Max501, I think that might be fear? A primitive reflex to perceived dangerous situations that could cause pain.
Could be. Could also be the natural response (like leaning into the hill) until the skier learns the new 'unnatural' technique used for skiing.
post #71 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
This is getting tiring. I'm talking about accomplished skiers.
I'm sorry I didn't realize that.

How does the example below fit into your model:

Quote:
However, I think that some degree of outside foot dominance is required to maintain the step reflex - which relates to edge change, weight transfer, & rhythm. It also reflects how we're wired re. neuromuscular patterning.
Take a look at 1:00 in this video and watch the turns the skier is making.

post #72 of 87
At the time you're referring to he's obviously moving across the ski while still holding onto the old edge and then stepping on the new once his body is already inside the new arc. Kinda like the "two step" drill.

My comments are in general and as with all things of that nature, you can always find an exception based on skill, tactics, and preference.

When he really lights it up at 0.32 you can see what I was referring to. Great skiing, a very skilled guy - thx for posting it .
post #73 of 87
This is one of the things that makes skiing so challenging and fun. The constant variables that are presented by the mountain from minute to
minute. I am not such a technical guru as to offer an opinion, but I do
enjoy reading them and not leary of trying any of them. God knows I
need the help.
post #74 of 87
jdistefa, You are referring to something that has been discussed some on this forum in the supporter area especially, under the name of "gait" mechanics. My personal view is that gait is extremely interesting as it relates to the sport of skiing and worth thinking about, but it is not to say that gait mechanics must be or should be used in every ski turn. It is more of a way of analyzing certain ski moves and comparing them to the natural movement of walking. But to say that skiing MUST follow gait mechanics in order to be ideal is tunnel vision. There are many sports where gait has nothing to do with the movements involved, and often enough, skiing is one of them.

if you search this forum with the word "gait" you will find hours of reading material.
post #75 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
jdistefa, You are referring to something that has been discussed some on this forum in the supporter area especially, under the name of "gait" mechanics. My personal view is that gait is extremely interesting as it relates to the sport of skiing and worth thinking about, but it is not to say that gait mechanics must be or should be used in every ski turn.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
It is more of a way of analyzing certain ski moves and comparing them to the natural movement of walking. But to say that skiing MUST follow gait mechanics in order to be ideal is tunnel vision.
Also agree, and I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was being that dogmatic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
There are many sports where gait has nothing to do with the movements involved, and often enough, skiing is one of them.
Disagree .


Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
if you search this forum with the word "gait" you will find hours of reading material.
Already done thx... some of it is very good, and some of it is rather misguided.
post #76 of 87
99% of the words written on this forum are misguided. No argument there.
post #77 of 87
I also don't completely understand how you AGREE #2 and DISAGREE #3. They are basically the same statements, as was intended by me. Skiing often can and does involve gait, but not always. that's all I'm saying and it seems you agree but disagree, so let's hear more of what you are thinking.

In any case, in powder, I don't think gait analogies are applicable unless you're on very fat skis and can get away with it. In fact that is exactly what I have been trying to say all along, that using a gait type mechanics in powder is not the best way.

Some other sports that have minimal or no gait involvement in my view: surfing, snowboarding, cycling, swimming(?), auto racing, etc..
post #78 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I also don't completely understand how you AGREE #2 and DISAGREE #3. They are basically the same statements, as was intended by me. Skiing often can and does involve gait, but not always. that's all I'm saying and it seems you agree but disagree, so let's hear more of what you are thinking.

In any case, in powder, I don't think gait analogies are applicable unless you're on very fat skis and can get away with it. In fact that is exactly what I have been trying to say all along, that using a gait type mechanics in powder is not the best way.

Some other sports that have minimal or no gait involvement in my view: surfing, snowboarding, cycling, swimming(?), auto racing, etc..
I guess I disagreed with your phrase "often enough" re. #3. But now we're really nitpicking .

I think there are some useful parallels to be drawn between linear gait and cycling, but I agree with you that there are many sports that aren't analogous.
post #79 of 87
I can see and understand both our points of view here. We are nit picking for sure as I am sure we all ski powder more similarly than differently!

cycling? How does cycling not relate to gait mechanics?
post #80 of 87
I dunno, maybe cycling was a bad example. Maybe the better question might be, "which parts of gait mechanics don't apply to cycling." but we're digressing and the original point has already been made.
post #81 of 87
In cycling, there is no heel strike, balance does not move over the stance foot during the stride.
post #82 of 87
no weight transfer? ever stand up and pedal?
post #83 of 87
You talikin' to me?
post #84 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
But don't you think it becomes the more dominant skill in powder? We don't really have to consciously think about adjusting edge angles or worry much about rotary skills as much as a more active focus on PC.

Ghost, you lost me on that one?
I strayed a bit from the original post.

I was referring to deep soft snow. Put too much of the load on the outside ski and it gives way, leaving you with two options: keep pushing as it sinks past the point of no return without doing much to stop you from going to the outside, or stop using that leg to resist your cm going to the outside of the turn. Both result in the your cm crossing over and if you don't have enough speed and the room to turn the other way this also results in a tumble.
post #85 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
You talikin' to me?
I'm guessin a misread. You were talking fore/aft,,, and accurately so. Touching on an important element of gait mechanics that I don't think has really been focused on in this thread. Very applicable to skiing. It's very important in gate mechanics too.
post #86 of 87
Please clarify.
post #87 of 87
Oh, didn't know you were referring to heel toe strike? sorry.
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