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So, how do YOU get forward? - Page 4

post #91 of 301
4/23/08 at 5:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
And besides 7 years with the effort you put into this is NOT relativley new....sorry you are rather experienced. Your skiing should be much further along then it is.
An excellent example of Skidude stating it like he "thinks" it is. As Skidude has no idea how I ski today.
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post #92 of 301
4/23/08 at 6:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
An excellent example of Skidude stating it like he "thinks" it is. As Skidude has no idea how I ski today.
I based that off your videos....I assumed they were current....if not my bad...
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post #93 of 301
4/23/08 at 6:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
I based that off your videos....I assumed they were current....if not my bad...
They are not. Not even close. I think they were shot one season after my first ABCD lessons.
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post #94 of 301
4/23/08 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
They are not. Not even close. I think they were shot one season after my first ABCD lessons.
Intreseting.

So after all this time of you touting "video" is the only way...and how you posted all these videos....you are now saying they were all outdated vids shot over one season.....several years ago????????????

Wow.

Cant wait to see where this goes....:
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post #95 of 301
4/23/08 at 6:24pm
:

My my, lots of posturing going on here.

Seems like certain people paint themselves into a corner when they speak in absolutes. I can understand why PMTSers like to get on their shovels a lot, though that is not the only way to ski well. It can certainly help a shaped ski to bend just a little more and "carve" a tighter, slower turn, which is a huge part of how PMTS skiers achieve their sense of control instead of deliberately skidding the tails, etc...

Fine. Its not the only way.

Furthermore, I think the kind of shovel loading I hear being advocated is not very relevant in the top 1/3 of the turn.

Bob and others have tried to describe in great detail how a skier's mass can transition from aft to fore simply by taking a shorter path to the fall line then the skis do. The CoM takes a short cut. If you are extremely aft during float, then yes, some proactive effort may be required to get you out of aft, in addition to the short cut taking you there. Or maybe its not necessary. Its not absolute.

Some kinds of releases and transitions can keep a skier from being overly aft during float and no such compensation is needed. Rick showed us a few. As it turns out, I have limited dorsi-flexion which can sometimes have the effect of making it difficult to keep my inside foot tucked underneath me, causing me to be just a bit more aft at transition then I would really prefer to be. The end result for me is that I do in fact just a little tiny nudge forward of my hip/pelvis as I cross over, to compensate. However, my goal is by no means to "load" the tip of the ski at that point, its merely to feel centered and allow my fore stance to develop as I approach the fallline and my CoM short cuts there. What happens after that depends entirely on the situation at hand, not every ski situation calls for hips way forward at the fallline, but certainly that is my preference for high speed carving on groomers, though I am not really doing it with the intention of loading the ski tips. I am usually trying to ski faster...not slower. :
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post #96 of 301
4/23/08 at 6:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Bob and others have tried to describe in great detail how a skier's mass can transition from aft to fore simply by taking a shorter path to the fall line then the skis do. The CoM takes a short cut.
Good try, but no, it doesn't work that way for me (and I suspect many others).

From: http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/short_story.htm

Quote:
Forward body position.

A forward body position entering the turn is of utmost importance. Bakke's forward body position makes the outside ski's front half bend more than the tail. This forward pressure will lead the ski into quick and tight radius carves. This forward body position exerts great pressure on the tibia against the tongue of the boot, which in turn bends the front of the ski. The skier must be able to bend the ankle in the ski boot. However, at a certain point the ski boot must stop bending forward. It is at this time maximum pressure is transferred to the front of the ski. Her pelvis is forward and noticeably ahead of her outside foot. To acquire a forward position the racer must hold the inside foot back. Both tibias are bent forward to almost the same degree.
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post #97 of 301
4/23/08 at 6:54pm
Max, I see you posted something, but I have the ignore option on, can't see it and don't want to. If someone quotes you later, maybe I will, but I will not be responding now. Good luck in your quest.
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post #98 of 301
4/23/08 at 6:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Intreseting.

So after all this time of you touting "video" is the only way...and how you posted all these videos....you are now saying they were all outdated vids shot over one season.....several years ago????????????
Vid is really the best way to know what you are doing. If you don't see yourself in vid then you don't really know that you are doing.

I put my vid up over a year ago. So, not sure what you are implying. (BTW, never said they were from several years ago, that's your statement not mine).
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post #99 of 301
4/23/08 at 6:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Max, I see you posted something, but I have the ignore option on, can't see it and don't want to. If someone quotes you later, maybe I will, but I will not be responding now. Good luck in your quest.
Too funny, you just did respond.
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post #100 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Vid is really the best way to know what you are doing. If you don't see yourself in vid then you don't really know that you are doing.

I put my vid up over a year ago. So, not sure what you are implying. (BTW, never said they were from several years ago, that's your statement not mine).
You said they were taken after your first PMTS lesson....you have been taking them for years....so....
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post #101 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
You said they were taken after your first PMTS lesson....you have been taking them for years....so....
Ah, I see the disconnect here. Ok, so for the first 3 or 4 seasons I learned from the books/DVDs and website. I think I took my first lesson with HH in April of 2006. I'm guessing less than 20 days of lessons total. I should add that not all were with HH. Other ABCD instructors include Diana Rogers, Mel Brown, Jay Peterson, and Crawford Pierce (hope I spelled their names correctly).
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post #102 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:06pm
Whatever max is saying in response to my intelligent response about skiing... I can't see it...but I'm reasonably sure....I disagree. LOL
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post #103 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Whatever max is saying in response to my intelligent response about skiing... I can't see it...but I'm reasonably sure....I disagree. LOL
That's 2 responses even though he isn't responding.
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post #104 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Good try, but no, it doesn't work that way for me (and I suspect many others).

From: http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/short_story.htm



Good post....so why do you think that any of these concepts are mutually exclusive??????????????????????????

They work together in harmony...no doubt yours is the most basic of them...and necessary....but it is only part of the puzzle.....I read that whole article...nothing in there that contradicts or invalidates what those with a clue are telling you.

That is just a simple intro to the new skis....no doubt that guy could write a whole book on just slalom turns.....it is the expansion on his ideas you need...there is alot being said there.
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post #105 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


Good post....so why do you think that any of these concepts are mutually exclusive?????????????????????????
I don't disagree with you here. I've never said they are mutually exclusive. Its others, like BB that are saying you don't need to do ANYTHING to get forward. That is just not my reality.
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post #106 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:15pm
I think you are taking things out of context.....
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post #107 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
I think you are taking things out of context.....
Hard to take the following statement out of context, especially if you consider his follow up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
I guess it's clear that I disagree with your main premise--that you "must get forward at the start" of a turn.
I don't know why there is this disconnect between Bob and all of the race coaches I have been around, but there it is. I've always heard that you should get forward as early as possible. My own limited (and probably lame) skiing bears this out. Obviously Bob doesn't feel that he or his students need to bother with getting forward. I guess that's good for them (as long as they aren't in the race course).
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post #108 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Hard to take the following statement out of context, especially if you consider his follow up posts.



I don't know why there is this disconnect between Bob and all of the race coaches I have been around, but there it is. I've always heard that you should get forward as early as possible. My own limited (and probably lame) skiing bears this out. Obviously Bob doesn't feel that he or his students need to bother with getting forward. I guess that's good for them (as long as they aren't in the race course).
Probably becuase race coaches are dealing with racers...Bob would deal with a much greater range of skiers in a much greater range of applications...hence the need to understand the full concept of "getting forward".

Just FYI...WC racers use the full concept, ie all available options to get tip pressure asap in just about all their turns....this means working with more then just your definition of "get forward"...I am sure if you asked your race coaches they could explain the full concept to you.

Just a tip...the desired GOAL or OUTCOME is "Tip pressure"....."getting forward" is just one of several options or inputs for obtaining the goal.
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post #109 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:37pm
So, I get off the lift and skate over to the top of the black diamond hill, i'll call it Yoedler. Cause usually it is. I look around to see if anyone is jumping in and the hill is clear in front of me and then I push off skate a couple strides and lean forwards a little to pick up speed.

Next thing I'm conscious of doing is driving my left shoulder, knee and hip while I flex my ankles and dig in my edges. Leading some with my left hand and pole while my right hand comes left also. Maybe not all in that order,

To the best of my knowledge, and I admit I don't think what I'm doing when I ski, nowhere in there do I bring my feet back to start my carve, nor do i when I turn to the right in transition.

weight is transfered to the other ski as my ankles and feet role onto the other edges etc and a constant flow occurs. I just can't picture pulling my feet back before each new turn. should i?

And I'm ripping high speed turns all the way to the lift.
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post #110 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
I am sure if you asked your race coaches could explain the full concept to you.
Now, no reason to be condescending Mr. Skidude. I understand what BB is saying and his position is lacking at least some of the racers 'get forward' stuff. So, why don't you, as the guy that "tells it like it is" explain this very concept to me?
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post #111 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
And I'm ripping high speed turns all the way to the lift.
No doubt. But are you able to bend the ski in such a way that you can actually control your speed while carving from the top of that run to the lift?
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post #112 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Oh, and just one more for those who enjoy this type of learning via self discovery: An up move is generally considered bad technique these days. Why is that, and how might the answer also apply to an exaggerated down move?
An "up" move causes a disconnect with the snow. An exaggerated down move does exactly the same thing.
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post #113 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Now, no reason to be condescending Mr. Skidude. I understand what BB is saying and his position is lacking at least some of the racers 'get forward' stuff. So, why don't you, as the guy that "tells it like it is" explain this very concept to me?
: How can that possibly be condesending???? You started a thread with a question...it was answered for you. Yet you then argue that the answer is not consistent with what you heard before. I showed you how it could be.

If you know everything why did you ask the question? or did you have some alterior motive for this thread?

I merely pointed out...that if you dont want to hear it from me or others here....ask HH....I am sure he will agree with me....

Getting forward is not the goal...getting tip pressure is the goal.
Getting forward is one of about 3 primary inputs that we can use to obtain tip pressure.

In good skiing we use all 3...you appear to be using only 2.

All three have been discussed in this thread....
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post #114 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
No doubt. But are you able to bend the ski in such a way that you can actually control your speed while carving from the top of that run to the lift?
Not my Dirtybirds cause they won't hold up. they're too noodley. When I'm serious about carving and I'm on the right pair of skis, I don't have any issues with speed control. I'm such a mood skier Max. It's hard for me to get serious anymore. I just want to have fun but dabble with the cranking when the time is right and the slopes are deserted.
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post #115 of 301
4/23/08 at 7:55pm
Quote:
...I guess it's clear that I disagree with your main premise--that you "must get forward at the start" of a turn. Of course, if you are too far back--at any point--then surely you should correct that error. If your feet are too far ahead, then certainly you should pull them back. But what if you're already in the "right" place, and you aren't making any mistakes, and your body and feet are already moving in the right direction--do you still need to "get forward"? And if so, which direction is "forward," and what, exactly, needs to "get forward" of what?-BobBarnes
bold added here

Max, Bob is not dismissing your idea of "getting forward" he's trying to show you that what you think you have to do is not necessary. For him this is a general misconception that needs discussing. Obviously this isn't just aimed at you -esp. since that writing was originally in another thread.


btw...here's what you know who thinks of Greg Gurshmann's site snowsportmoves.com
Greg is the guy on youcanski.com you quoted here in post#60 "Modern Alpine Racing Technique"
Quote:
I've seen the site, yuck!!!
That site is ten years behind the stuff that was wrong ten years ago, And they haven't discovered it yet. Fortunately, IT'S NOT PUBLIC ENOUGH for ANYONE TO CARE..

-from thread "Intention of the _ Forum?"

wow, way harsh...


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post #116 of 301
4/23/08 at 8:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
In good skiing we use all 3...you appear to be using only 2.
Really, what am I not using?
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post #117 of 301
4/23/08 at 8:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
I just want to have fun but dabble with the cranking when the time is right and the slopes are deserted.
Understood. That's the beauty of a race course. You get to blast down even if there are crowds on the other slopes.
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post #118 of 301
4/23/08 at 8:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Max, Bob is not dismissing your idea of "getting forward" he's trying to show you that what you think you have to do is not necessary.
He's made it clear that you don't have to do anything but allow the feet to move forward at the transition and then the CM moves into the turn and the feet will catch up and you'll magically find yourself in a fore position. This is not my experience and from my observations I'd say its not the reality of many (most) skiers on the hill.
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post #119 of 301
4/23/08 at 8:06pm
Quote:
Obviously Bob doesn't feel that he or his students need to bother with getting forward. I guess that's good for them (as long as they aren't in the race course).-Max
Max, this makes no sense since all of the photos are wc racers. (except Bob of course)

To move things along in a productive manner though, what exactly do your race coaches tell you about getting forward?
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post #120 of 301
4/23/08 at 8:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Just a tip...the desired GOAL or OUTCOME is "Tip pressure"....."getting forward" is just one of several options or inputs for obtaining the goal.
For point of reference, lets say that 12 o'clock is the top of the turn and 6 o'clock is the bottom. On average, for a tight GS turn on GS race stock skis, at what o'clock do you do you think 'tip pressure' should be achieved?
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