or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

So, how do YOU get forward? - Page 7

post #181 of 301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
It was pointed out that "getting forward" is just 1 of at least 3 main ways to do this. Yet you have never bothered to ask, or at least clarify, or at least learn what those 3 are. You seem to have really only mentioned 2 of them.
From post 116 to YOU when you said I was only using 2 or the 3:

Quote:
Really, what am I not using?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
The third one is the golden piece you are looking for.......seems strange that someone who is geniune would ignore it.
You never bothered to answer. But what do you mean about being geniune? I simply started a thread asking others how they got forward as I think its an interesting topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Max, I think now that you have acknowleged all of you video was shot over one season in 2006, and is now in your words "not even close" to how you ski today....you can end your video crusade.
Nope, I think its the best way to demonstrate how a person's written ideas translate to skiing. Even though my vid is a bit out dated its better than nothing.
post #182 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
blows out...ALOT!

I believe this is typical for any skier who tries to arc to arc his way through the gates..
This has the ring of truth.

I don't race, but over the years I have encountered the odd course left up after a race, and after a training session. When I first encountered said icy rutted gates, I invariably ended up with too much speed the first time down the course, scrubbed in places the second time down so I wouldn't blow out, and only if I were lucky enough to get a third crack at it was I able to approach pure arc to arc all the way down. Little things matter, like knowing how low you have to be in able to keep applying pressure as the course drops away mid-turn, and when to use a higher line or lower line. I think the course designers deliberately make it hard to arc the entire course in order to separate the finishing times by a wider margin.
post #183 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Well, Max501, always nice to get brushed off; guess an amateur deserves it for venturing outside the gear forums, let alone not using the secret handshake properly. But OTOH, some basic geometry and English for you folks to mull over: Go count the little Raich images, and find the first one in which he's getting over and down far enough to reverse his edge exposure relative to the crowd. It's about #8. Now unless gravity has been suspended for this race, my handy protractor shows the spectators begin about 20 or so degrees off his fall line (0 degrees), and extend out of the frame, at which edge they are about 50 degrees off his vertical. Thus the folks who might be perpendicular to his bases so they could see them are not ABOVE HIM; at #8 they are to his SIDE, eg., closer to 90 degrees than 0 degrees.

The viewers shown may get a seriously foreshortened glimpse of his bases from behind; if that's what you all mean by "above," but I'd guess he'd have to be traveling a lot faster in a lot more complete arcs to flash the whole of his bases to someone actually ABOVE him (up his fall line) because then he's only at at #3 or #4. (Go tie a rock to a string and experiment with centrifugal force to get at this.)

So while no, I sure as hell do not drive my skis like Raich, or even like you folks, I do often get my edges facing the side of the slope. It's hard not to if your COM is anywhere below and inside the arc.

I also note that although you quoted my ending quip about bases, you ignored the content about "forward." Again, my triangle and protractor indicate that Raich is not "forward" as much as he is below and inside. To be more precise, he's leaning toward the apex of a triangle formed by a line down the fall line from his BOF and a line across his tips dropped down the mountain. And to the main point I was trying to make, my instructor does not favor the idea of teaching this as getting "forward" because that tends to keep clients following their own tips. Yes, he told me this. We talk about teaching because I'm also a teacher, of a different kind.

But hey, perhaps since I use standard English and geometry in a literal way I'm just hopelessly fogged up about this.

You know what guys? I've only been to this forum a few times since I joined, and it's fascinating to lurk. I learn a lot. But of all the forums on Epic, this is the least enjoyable to post on. Suggest you make it for instructors only, enjoy the professional back and forth, and drop any pretense of dealing with non-pros.
Dont get frustrated Beyond.

Sorry...let me re-phrase that....we are all frustrated here!

You fit in perfectly!

Just FYI.....the person who "brushed you off".....is a a "non-pro" himself.
post #184 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
From post 116 to YOU when you said I was only using 2 or the 3:





You never bothered to answer. But what do you mean about being geniune? I simply started a thread asking others how they got forward as I think its an interesting topic. .
Like Rick, I dont see the value in spoon feeding you every answer...the answer is in this thread..I know it is there at least twice...but I think 3 or more..look for it.....dont just ignore what doesnt fit your understanding.

Heck, if you like....I'll help you thou....can you tell me what 2 methods you ARE using to get forward?

As for my statment you are not being "genuine", that comes from your assertion on the application of getting forward...it was corrected....you argued...doenst seem like someone looking to learn.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Nope, I think its the best way to demonstrate how a person's written ideas translate to skiing. Even though my vid is a bit out dated its better than nothing.
Well not really...how does a video, that is "not even close" help? I could show videos of guys that are very close to me...may not be me....or it might....but either way, the skiing would be very close.....I think that is of alot more value.
post #185 of 301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
I think the issue here is....when training gates Max blows out...ALOT!
Yet again, Skidude telling it "like he THINKS it is".

A good example of the speed control issue in the course is with developing racers, they get to that point where things start to really click, they aren't intimidated by the gates and they go faster and faster until they can't stay in the course. They either learn to control their speed or they don't finish any races.

Then there is controlling speed out of the course. Every time I'm on the hill I see skiers carving that are gaining speed with each turn, even when they don't want to. They haven't figured out speed control while carving. Its easier said then done, especially on steeper slopes, and getting early tip engagement is a key component and getting fore is a part of that (at least in my book) .
post #186 of 301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Yet you have never bothered to ask...
When I point out that I did ask and you didn't answer you come back with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Like Rick, I dont see the value in spoon feeding you every answer...
Well, now we know who isn't being GENUINE here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Heck, if you like....I'll help you thou....can you tell me what 2 methods you ARE using to get forward?
Skidude's 20 question instruction time. I never said I use 2 methods to get forward. You did. My main tool is pulling/holding the feet back. Secondary is extending the outside leg and allowing the CM to move into the turn. The secondary stuff just happens when you properly carve a turn so I'm guessing you've got more up your sleeve, but I don't know what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
As for my statment you are not being "genuine", that comes from your assertion on the application of getting forward...it was corrected....you argued...doenst seem like someone looking to learn.
Because I don't agree with you I'm not genuine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
I could show videos of guys that are very close to me...may not be me....or it might....but either way, the skiing would be very close.....I think that is of alot more value.
So, is the rumor that you are skiing in White Balance true or false?
post #187 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
And do you feel that Bode kicked arse this year because he straightened his line out like Rick suggest above?
ABSOLUTLEY!!!!
post #188 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post
ABSOLUTLEY!!!!
No, he quit drinking and started doing what the USST coaches had been attempting to get him to do for years, but was now convined it was his own idea!
post #189 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
This has the ring of truth.

I don't race, but over the years I have encountered the odd course left up after a race, and after a training session. When I first encountered said icy rutted gates, I invariably ended up with too much speed the first time down the course, scrubbed in places the second time down so I wouldn't blow out, and only if I were lucky enough to get a third crack at it was I able to approach pure arc to arc all the way down. Little things matter, like knowing how low you have to be in able to keep applying pressure as the course drops away mid-turn, and when to use a higher line or lower line. I think the course designers deliberately make it hard to arc the entire course in order to separate the finishing times by a wider margin.
Whether high line or low line the key is waiting for the riseline.
Easier said then done!!!!
post #190 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
but for those out there....trust me when I say coaches will set training coarses much more "open" then races...unless they have a dedicated staff to assist....and that is rare)
You sure can rile 'em up, eh Max?:

Hey Skidude - wtf??! As someone who sets ALOT (with and without help), I have no idea what this means.
post #191 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
You sure can rile 'em up, eh Max?:
It doesn't take much to rile up this crowd!:
post #192 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
It doesn't take much to rile up this crowd!:
And I'm surprised this one didn't do it too.

Quote:
No, he quit drinking and started doing what the USST coaches had been attempting to get him to do for years, but was now convined it was his own idea!
post #193 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
You sure can rile 'em up, eh Max?:

Hey Skidude - wtf??! As someone who sets ALOT (with and without help), I have no idea what this means.
Ah...means just what I wrote really....full on race courses if set properly will have a certain degree of "turniness" to them.....training courses will either have the same amount as a real race course...or less. Rarely are training courses turnier then real race courses.

Training courses are somtimes set more open in order to:

Encourage the athletes to ski smoother, rounder, more arc to arc, encourage positive self image (warm downs), etc

Further, and this was my "with help" idea more open courses require less maintenance (less slipping ie, less ruts, less knocked gates, less need to re-set as often, leaves the hill in better conditon when it is released to the public....etc etc.)

My point was simply that...just becuase you are were able to ski a certain training course top to bottom going arc to arc means very little. That is a function of the course, not the skier...I can think of lots of training courses where top to bottom arc to arc was possible, but I cant think of any recent races where this could be done.....and win.
post #194 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
When I point out that I did ask and you didn't answer you come back with:



Well, now we know who isn't being GENUINE here.



Skidude's 20 question instruction time. I never said I use 2 methods to get forward. You did. My main tool is pulling/holding the feet back. Secondary is extending the outside leg and allowing the CM to move into the turn. The secondary stuff just happens when you properly carve a turn so I'm guessing you've got more up your sleeve, but I don't know what it is.



Because I don't agree with you I'm not genuine?



So, is the rumor that you are skiing in White Balance true or false?
Sheesh Max,

Why so defensive? You seem more intent on arguing and scoring points rather then learning.

But anyway lets focus on the bolded bit above.

Holding/Pulling the feet back. Yup...to be clear lets just include all efforts to physically get your COM forward relative to your BOS in this one.

Lets call this method #1.

Not sure about your extension idea....you need to elaborate on that...when do you extend...how?


What are the others? If you are only doing this one...no wonder you are struggling to generate early tip pressure.
post #195 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
No,,, going too straight for the skills you possess is easy. There's a major difference in there you are just not getting yet. You are totally scrambling the ideas of skills, line and speed. My suspicion is, Max, if/when you ever do get into a real race, with a clock on you, you will quickly realize that speed control is NOT what you need to be focusing on in your race technique. You have much to learn, Max. Please, stop polluting this site with your neophyte understandings of skiing, and especially racing.
Your message has merit. Your tone sucks.

You have summed up modern GS. You just need to admit that we all have a lot to learn, and that every turn is different. Sometimes the race goes to the best carver, sometimes it goes to the best scrambler.

Between the range of snow types and the new ski radius rules it is darn hard to say what is best. The best skier is the one who can figure it out on the fly.

Bode Miller, in his infinite optimism, looks to make up time by either carving the best turn or taking the straightest line. He has yet to explain how he decides which approach to take.

if you have figured it out, please share.
post #196 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

Bode Miller, in his infinite optimism, looks to make up time by either carving the best turn or taking the straightest line. He has yet to explain how he decides which approach to take.

if you have figured it out, please share.

Easy.

In ski racing...we always want to exit our turn going as at least as fast or faster then we entered it....faster is better obvioulsy....the reason for this is it takes a long time to re-accelerate up to full speed...precious seconds that will cost you the race. Hence maitaining speed is crucial.

This means that the skier will approach the next turn with as much speed as possible...if the racer can handle that speed for the approaching turn, they keep charging, and run as straight as they can, and still make the turn...."whether or not they "made" the turn is dependent on whether or not the met the criteria for gaining or at least maintaining speed I outlined above.

The line will be made as wide as needed to maitain speed.

Now obviously the racer does not only need to make the current turn...but they need to make ALL the turns...no prize for fastest interval....hence they look several gates ahead.

Now if it will take too long..ie take up too much vertical distance on the hill to get the width they need by carving arc to arc, they will cut the top of the turn off with a pivot entry...this works as if done right the amount of speed lost will be minimal, and most importantly they will be able to leave the turn with the same or more speed then which they entered it, and be in a good spot to make the next turn.

That is the process all good ski racers go through....after a while it is instinct....
post #197 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Easy.

after a while it is instinct....
Then why is it Bode said the other members of the national team made a mess of it when he tried to teach them his methods. (Obviously Ted figured it out, but it took three years) That was easy.
post #198 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
Then why is it Bode said the other members of the national team made a mess of it when he tried to teach them his methods. (Obviously Ted figured it out, but it took three years) That was easy.
Hard to say for sure....but ultimatley "instinct" comes down to personal experience. I have said before, that Bode is not the best technical skier on the WC. I think he would even agree with that. Top 20? Probably....but he is not heads and tails above the rest....but where Bode becomes the best is his ability, or willingness to push it just a little finer then the other guys. That balls out aggressivness, that fly by the seat of your pants stuff is all mental...some have it, some dont....some have it more then others.
post #199 of 301
Bode trains strange situations = teach the body to handle strange positions and then he is willing to risk a little bit more and push a little harder that's why he wins if he get himself down.
And he don't try to solve a situation in forehand, he solves it when it comes...

So if you what to get better, ski harder, faster at you ability at all times and try to put yourself in awkward situations.
post #200 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
To turn the skier you must first turn the ski.

To turn the ski you need to create a steering angle.

Applying pressure to the ski tip of a edged ski is one primary method of developing a steering angle.

Pivoting is the other primary method of developing a steering angle.
Nonsense!
post #201 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post
Nonsense!
Ok.....educate me.
post #202 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Ok.....educate me.
See this article on binding placement:
http://www.techsupportforskiers.com/..._placement.htm

Read on to where Keelty quotes an industry spokesman:

"One manufacturer's spokesman (since moved on) actually came clean and corroborated our skidding theory.
His intriguing response: "Yes, we do place our athletes near the center of the running surface, and yes, our retail models place skiers farther back, but we don't want to give recreational skiers too much tail. They lean on the fronts of their boots to pressure the tips to enter the turn and can't handle increased tail length."
In other words, the rearward position makes it easier to skid and all but impossible to develop more modern carving technique. "

you want to engage the ski to initiate a carving turn and derive your "steering angle" from the resulting ski geometry. Engaging the tip of the ski only in order to displace the ski and generate that angle is setting you up for a skid.


"
post #203 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post
See this article on binding placement:
http://www.techsupportforskiers.com/..._placement.htm

Read on to where Keelty quotes an industry spokesman:

"One manufacturer's spokesman (since moved on) actually came clean and corroborated our skidding theory.
His intriguing response: "Yes, we do place our athletes near the center of the running surface, and yes, our retail models place skiers farther back, but we don't want to give recreational skiers too much tail. They lean on the fronts of their boots to pressure the tips to enter the turn and can't handle increased tail length."
In other words, the rearward position makes it easier to skid and all but impossible to develop more modern carving technique. "

you want to engage the ski to initiate a carving turn and derive your "steering angle" from the resulting ski geometry. Engaging the tip of the ski only in order to displace the ski and generate that angle is setting you up for a skid.


"
Um well....: Interesting article....but how does that make anything I wrote wrong? The whole thing was about binding placement........nothing in there about ski technique....

The bolded bit I agree with...that is what happens on an edged ski...the resulting "bend" is the steering angle...I coverd that....more tip pressure gives you a greater tip bend, which is a greater steering angle, which creates a tighter carved turn....

I dont understand what you mean in the blue bit. Care to elaborate?
post #204 of 301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
What are the others?
Well, when are you going to tell us? I already told you what I do.

As far as extending, I begin to extend my outside leg as soon as the new turn starts, its a gradual movement (e.g. not all at once). Generally maximum extension is reached by the fall line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
If you are only doing this one...no wonder you are struggling to generate early tip pressure.
Who said I was struggling? BTW, why do you always have to take a tone like this and put others down in some fashion? Why can't you just say "here are a couple of other methods you might want to consider which may facilitate early tip pressure"? I have to wonder, when you are teaching on the hill do you use the same negative tone?

BTW, still waiting for you to answer the question about the White Balance video.
post #205 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Well, when are you going to tell us? I already told you what I do.
I am not going to tell you....I dont have the energy. The reason is Max...if someone other then HH tells you somthign you will refuse to believe it, and argue against the point for weeks. If you discover it for yourself, you tend to be more open to it.

The answer is there...I have given you a big clue in that you need to look for somthing different...not just doing what you do now sooner.

Think of it as tough love...you will thank me later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
As far as extending, I begin to extend my outside leg as soon as the new turn starts, its a gradual movement (e.g. not all at once). Generally maximum extension is reached by the fall line.
Ok thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Who said I was struggling?
You did...post #25, and then again in #64.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
BTW, why do you always have to take a tone like this and put others down in some fashion? Why can't you just say "here are a couple of other methods you might want to consider which may facilitate early tip pressure"? I have to wonder, when you are teaching on the hill do you use the same negative tone?
My tone is a direct reflection of what I get here. Nope no negative tone on the hill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
BTW, still waiting for you to answer the question about the White Balance video.


You'll be waiting awhile.
post #206 of 301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
You did...post #25, and then again in #64.
No, I didn't say I was struggling, but that is your typical strategy here on Epic. Make things up that others said (when they didn't) and then state them as fact.

Post 25

Quote:
As I slice through the turn pressure moves from the front to the back, so if I don't do something at the transition to get forward I start the new turn back which causes me to ride the sidecut for that turn as I struggle to get forward again.
I already said the something I do is to pull the feet back. But I'm sure you know that.

Post 64 as an explanation of when I think 'get forward'. I have no clue how you decided I said I was struggling from this.

Quote:

If I'm free skiing I like to think "get forward" at the float and if all goes well I'm forward early for the new turn. I use the float as my starting point because I'm only there (floating) for a split second and it takes longer than that to get forward so by starting the thought process at the float I have a better chance of being where I want to be for the top of the new turn.

When I'm in the course so much is happening so dang fast that I catch myself thinking "get forward" a bit later.
Anyway, if you are genuinely interested in helping out here you'll actually describe the other movements that can facilitate getting forward, early tip pressure, whatever you want to call it. Because even if you think I won't accept it because of the source there are hundreds of others that will read this thread and they should be able to benefit from your wealth of knowledge. BTW, the "I don't have the energy" excuse is strange given the long tit for tat debates you enjoy participating in.
post #207 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Um well....: Interesting article....but how does that make anything I wrote wrong? The whole thing was about binding placement........nothing in there about ski technique....

The bolded bit I agree with...that is what happens on an edged ski...the resulting "bend" is the steering angle...I coverd that....more tip pressure gives you a greater tip bend, which is a greater steering angle, which creates a tighter carved turn....

I dont understand what you mean in the blue bit. Care to elaborate?
The quoted section is what is directly relevant.
I think what you mean to say is that you wish to move the center of pressure to the front section of the ski. This is a matter of pressure and bending the ski and has nothing to do with the tip. "Leaning on the front of the boots to pressure the tips to enter the turn" as the rep stated is a common flaw that I would not encourage. Using terms like 'tip engagement" just encourages this flaw and also promotes a misperception common among some instructors that engaging the tip to initiate the turn is what you normally wish to do. I'm all for lateral learning among advanced skiers but i think it is important to focus on correct movement patterns as the foundation for good skiing technique.
post #208 of 301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post
Using terms like 'tip engagement" just encourages this flaw and also promotes a misperception common among some instructors that engaging the tip to initiate the turn is what you normally wish to do. I'm all for lateral learning among advanced skiers but i think it is important to focus on correct movement patterns as the foundation for good skiing technique.
What term would you suggest as a replacement for "tip engagement"?
post #209 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
What term would you suggest as a replacement for "tip engagement"?
Edging and pressure. You wish to engage the whole ski. Pressure distribution is what you may be referring to but to identify it with the tips is misleading. The notion that we turn around the tip of the ski is (normally) just plain incorrect.
post #210 of 301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post
Edging and pressure. You wish to engage the whole ski. Pressure distribution is what you may be referring to but to identify it with the tips is misleading. The notion that we turn around the tip of the ski is (normally) just plain incorrect.
I don't see how tip engagement suggests turning around the tip.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching