EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Ski edges too sharp and bases dry?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Ski edges too sharp and bases dry?

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
Hi Gang,

Yesterday I was up at Crystal Mtn, WA skiing my Legend 8000 and a pair of Mythic Ryder demos. I tuned my 8000s myself when I got them new. I had set the base at 1 deg and the side at 2 degrees with no detuning anywhere along the edges, removed all the burrs. The edges seemed very good and sharp and smooth. I also prepped my new skis with a warm scrape, 4 cycles of base prep wax and put the Swix pink/red wax on as the final. Yesterday was the second day I had skied them. I will do a more complete comparison of the two skis after skiing today. The MRs were supposedley left at the factory tune.

Most of the fairly wet snow had been skied out by the time I had gotten there. Flurries in the late morning with sunshine from about 12:45 on. Snow went from fairly crusty in the shade in late morning to warm by early afternoon. I skied the 8000s from about 11:45 to 2:15 straight. From about 2:45 to 4:00 I skied the Mythic Ryders. This late in the afternoon, the runs I was went in shade and the snow became crusty and hard.

I found that although the demo MRs did not hold on the crusty stuff as well as I would have liked - alot of skidding - they felt much smoother in terms of transitioning in the turns than my 8000s. The 8000s transition to the edges and through the turn felt almost too grabby. The MRs seemed much more natural to me on both the crud/bumps and on the groomers even though they did not hold an edge as well as the 8000s, which I missed I almost started to think the MRs were a better ski for me even though the turn initiation takes a bit longer.

When I went back to the demo shop, I relayed my experience.

1) The shop guy took a look at both skis and said that my 8000s were too sharp and that I should detune them a bit with a gummy stone and that it would feel like a different and smoother ski. Does this seem like a reasonable suggestion? The demo MR edges also seemed fairly sharp but definitely not as sharp as my 8000s though.

2) He also said that my bases were way too dry and needed a wax. I was surprised by this since I had only skied them twice and did a very careful job. I mentioned this to him, and he said that I scraped/brushed too much of the wax off while prepping. I thought that this was pretty much impossible to do. I would have to say that while both pairs of skis showed some base structure (the very thin line type) the shop's MRs definitely felt a little more waxy than my own.

a) So, how do you tell when bases are too dry?
b) Can I scrape/brush too much of the wax off? How do you know how much scraping/brushing is too much?


Thanks.
post #2 of 15
A good question. Like most good questions, it's been done before.

Detuning seems to be a personal choice. I like my edges razor sharp, and have my edges bite when I tell them too. I don't want them to slip sideways at all, but some skiers still prefer to have a smoother transition to arcing, or perhaps they don't arc their skis at all.

For your reading pleasure:


http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...ghlight=detune

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...ghlight=detune

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...ghlight=detune

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...ghlight=detune

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...ghlight=detune

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...ghlight=detune


For future reference: Link third from the right near the top of this page that says "search".

As to brushing off too much wax, I never seem to have enough time to brush off enough wax. I highly doubt you brushed off too much wax. Use a plastic scraper, not metal. Then brush (without a power brush) until you expose structure. Then ski.
post #3 of 15
If by pink/red you mean Swix CH8, then yes, it can wear off fast in new, wet snow.

Sounds like a lower-temp higher-fluoro wax like LF7 might be more the ticket.


PS, if you were going between the 8Ks and Mythics all day, I wouldn't be surprised if you subconsciously started driving the 8Ks onto edge a little faster than your usual practice.
post #4 of 15
Judging by reviews I have read, the result is not surprising. The MR is a wider, softer, easier to ski tool, than the 8000, which has a higher performance envelope (though I also read that the newest 8000 isn't as much higher level than the previous year's 8000). Your tuning only added to this difference.
post #5 of 15
You should be able to look at the base and tell how the wax is doing, by looking for any abraded or dry spots. It's usually quite obvious. The snow conditions you encountered can be tough on wax.

I detune some skis and not others. Depends on how turn initiation and edging feels. I think some skis benefit from a light detune at the tips and/or tails. I reserve judgement until after I ski them for a few runs.
post #6 of 15
It is easy to keep them sharp (assuming that you have polished off any burr) but carry a gummi rubber in your pocket it the tips and tails are too grabby when you have skied a run or two then lightly de-tune the the first & last 8-10 cm and then see how it skis.

Waxing - some snow conditions can be really brutal on mid range/ universal waxes. I do lots of soft/ prep wax cycles and then put 2-3 cycles of cold LF into my bases. I then wx for whatever the local temps/ conditions are? I am using Solda (universal) LF and Maplus Cold and Med LF and Dominator Cold HC. It gets easier as one gets more experience as there is quite a bit of 'feel' to go with the science and this comes with time, trial & error (and success).

That is so if I ever feel lazy after a few days skiing I know I have a layer of hard wax to protect the bases. It really works (well it seems to work for me).

I had one day last year in NZ where (after calling the academy race coach) I got the waxing perfect on a pair of GS skis. The difference between my normal skis (always well tuned and waxed) and getting it 'perfect' was stunning. They were scary fast but it was so nice to get it really right.

One does not have to be too energetic on the brushing just get the bases so that one can see the structure and that there is a good gloss to the base (ie the wax had been polished).
post #7 of 15
A racer will scrape and brush until absolutely no wax remains. This tells you that optimum speed comes from no excess wax. Wax should be in the base not on it. While skiing the wax will slowly bleed out of the base and lubricate it.

Most people will not scrape/brush to this extent and leave wax on, only to let it wear off as you ski. Under certain snow conditions this can make your bases sticky because the snow crystals are digging into the excess wax on the surface.
post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor D View Post
A racer will scrape and brush until absolutely no wax remains. This tells you that optimum speed comes from no excess wax. Wax should be in the base not on it. While skiing the wax will slowly bleed out of the base and lubricate it.

Most people will not scrape/brush to this extent and leave wax on, only to let it wear off as you ski. Under certain snow conditions this can make your bases sticky because the snow crystals are digging into the excess wax on the surface.
I think this is a really good point, but:


What, then, accounts for the combined durability and improved base protection that the harder waxes display? We cannot assert that they bleed any faster?

Is it actually expected that we should leave more of harder waxes on the surface?
post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
Is it actually expected that we should leave more of harder waxes on the surface?
What we are trying to say is that it should be in the first few microns of the surface, not on it. The higher friction of the (relatively) colder snow melts and "bleeds" it out at the right pace to protect it (assuming you picked the right wax ). If you picked a wax that was too soft (meant for warmer snow), that wax would "bleed" out at too fast a pace and soon fail to protect the base and to produce optimum glide.
post #10 of 15
Exactly, and conversely a hard wax rated for cold temps would not bleed out well in warm weather conditions.
post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor D View Post
Exactly, and conversely a hard wax rated for cold temps would not bleed out well in warm weather conditions.
Doc,
True, and in that case, the harder wax "reinforces" the base material and does protect it better from base burn, but produces less than optimum glide.
post #12 of 15
Are you guys comfortable leaving it at that, without looking into
"higher friction of the (relatively) colder snow melts and "bleeds" it out" and the wear that implies?
post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
Are you guys comfortable leaving it at that, without looking into
"higher friction of the (relatively) colder snow melts and "bleeds" it out" and the wear that implies?
Not sure where you are trying to go with that. Yes, higher wear factor and faster base burn. This is the reason that many of us put a small line of harder wax on the edges (Swix LF3, for instance) to negate base burn where the extra pressure is applied when carving hard, abrasive snow.
post #14 of 15
there is a lot of magical thinking surrounding the use of ski wax.
post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by NE1 View Post
Not sure where you are trying to go with that.
-NOT- scraping that line of CH3/LF3/LFG3 but adapting the drip/powder to leave as thin a layer as possible after heat is removed then polishing away the bit that most significantly blocks structure.

i.e. a procedure of
1 apply
2 heat cycle with possible lift-off using paper/absorbent
3 brush with very stiff but not particularly sharp bristles
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Ski edges too sharp and bases dry?