EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Fitness, Health, Nutrition, Injury, and Recovery › Any longtime users of chondroitin/glucos/msm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Any longtime users of chondroitin/glucos/msm - Page 2

post #31 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by daysailer1 View Post
Be warned, I'm an INTP. I drive ESTJ's insane.
MBTI... LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by daysailer1 View Post
It would be nice to be able to tag the compounds with some sort of fluorescent label and be able to use something like confocal microscopy to look at the results.
Voila .
post #32 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
Do two things for me:
Do three things for me:

1) Look up 'arrogance' and 'patronizing' in the dictionary and state your findings. (One thing they do is cloud objectivity.)

2) Review the studies yourself and provide us the Cliff Notes and your contrary comments to the studies, point by point.

3) State your relationship and bias towards pharmaceuticals or not.

Making a living in a profession with serious liability consequences, that requires absolute precision at times, absolute subjectivity at others, mixing the two and then dealing with factors from out in left field that don't add up and making 'the right call' (sometimes , I'll bet the truth is somewhere other than what any of us can know for sure to be absolute gospel.

I do know, like MJB & Uncle Louie, it works for me. It may not for others, it may be a lifestyle and balance of other factors like the beer I drink or the fox I married, but there is a kernel of truth that makes me believe these supplements are beneficial. I am far from a couch potato, but am also not going to win any gold medals either, though my activities and capabilities are far above the vast majority of 40 and 50 year olds (and probably a huge amount of 20 and 30 year olds), where they were not before. Adding C, G & M to my 'routine', coupled with regular physical activity, sometimes intense.

This thread tells me: YMMV. Find out what works for you in your own way.
post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
Do three things for me:

1) Look up 'arrogance' and 'patronizing' in the dictionary and state your findings. (One thing they do is cloud objectivity.)

2) Review the studies yourself and provide us the Cliff Notes and your contrary comments to the studies, point by point.

3) State your relationship and bias towards pharmaceuticals or not.

Making a living in a profession with serious liability consequences, that requires absolute precision at times, absolute subjectivity at others, mixing the two and then dealing with factors from out in left field that don't add up and making 'the right call' (sometimes , I'll bet the truth is somewhere other than what any of us can know for sure to be absolute gospel.

I do know, like MJB & Uncle Louie, it works for me. It may not for others, it may be a lifestyle and balance of other factors like the beer I drink or the fox I married, but there is a kernel of truth that makes me believe these supplements are beneficial. I am far from a couch potato, but am also not going to win any gold medals either, though my activities and capabilities are far above the vast majority of 40 and 50 year olds (and probably a huge amount of 20 and 30 year olds), where they were not before. Adding C, G & M to my 'routine', coupled with regular physical activity, sometimes intense.

This thread tells me: YMMV. Find out what works for you in your own way.
Sorry if you interpreted my tone as arrogance, but that was certainly not my intent. If you want to support your position with potentially biased information from the place that sells you supplements, you should be open to some criticism and a facts based discussion. That's all I was saying. I'm frankly awed at the emotional response .

I have simply been playing devil's advocate a little bit in an effort to get people to think about their perceptions re. the use of these supplements, especially when the evidence is at best sketchy. When something is marginally better than placebo (and there are some studies on it that suggest no difference), equivalent in pain relief to Tylenol, and there is no long term data on it, it is perfectly reasonable to question its use.

By all means, do what you believe works for you.

If you really want to know more, it's up to you to read the studies - you're the one spending money on the supplement and putting it in your body.

I have no affiliation with any drug company or supplement manufacturer.

If my opinion, knowledge, and experience is contrary to yours, and I've argued strongly for it, does that mean I should stop posting?
post #34 of 48
I've been taking G+C, no MSM, for several years. 25 days of skiing this year, ride about 2,500 mi. annually, and when I run out of the stuff and don't take it for 3 days or so, my knees notice it, especially n the morning.
post #35 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
There are no convincing studies (of quality) that suggest a sustainable effect. The best study yet done suggests pain relief on par with plain tylenol, but the biological explanation for this effect is unknown. Further, the biological plausibility of the proposed mechanism of effect on articular cartilage is in the highly unlikely category.

Someone will lots of free time and good funding will likely sit down and do a meta-analysis of all the current research to try to tease out some statistical significance. My advice? Save your money or spend it on dryland training, equipment alignment, and beer.

Regards,
Matt
that's not entirely truth: there is one study supporting benefit for osteoarthritis of the knee. one

no other joints benefits, no miracle menisci healing nor MCL/LCL.
post #36 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by kubagr View Post
that's not entirely truth: there is one study supporting benefit for osteoarthritis of the knee. one
Yes, that was the study I was referring to re. pain control on par with tylenol. And so far, that seems to be the main benefit - although not supported in all studies -mild pain control. Unfortunately there is no data supporting improvements in cartilage quality, or lessening the progress of arthritis. Until there is good long-term data in terms of disease impact, or a tissue based study (using biomarkers, or direct before/after visualization/imaging), I will remain a skeptic.

Despite my devil's advocate position on this thread, I don't dissuade patients from taking this stuff, but nor do I actively recommend it.

I was speaking at a conference today re. sports medicine and brought up this thread and the difficulties re. breaching the topic of efficacy. As I said to the audience - if nothing else, this thread reinforced my understanding that people have strong beliefs about supplements, whether or not there exists good scientific support for their use .
post #37 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
I have yet to see this, but I will ask patients about it, thx .

Do you think it has anything to do with both the variation in content of glucosamine among different manufacturers, and the relative rarity of true (anaphylaxis) shellfish allergy?
Indeed I do. I suspect that because the monitoring of "active ingredient" in supplements by the FDA is so poor, that many supplements may not even have the stuff they claim they do at all. (Wasn't there a study on St. John's Wort a few years ago that showed that when they actually assayed for the active ingredient that it wasn't there in most of the products?)

Also, as a Dermatologist, I sit at the "bottom of the funnel" for cutaneous hypersensitivity in the population. I'm sure it's quite rare to be allergic to it, but I've seen three cases in my career where it clearly was c.g.m. supplements that caused the reaction...took them off it and it went away, had them go back on it and it came back. And none of them were anaphylaxis, they were all morbilliform (i.e. "looks like measles") reactions like the typical "drug reaction" rash. And all three were pretty spectacularly miserable. Took some convincing to get them to re-challenge, but I had to be sure. I also am not implying that it doesn't work, but it seems the effect must be highly variable from individual to individual. All done ranting now...I'll go back to lurking again...carry on and just ignore me.
post #38 of 48
For some irrational reason I can't let this go and feel compelled to get this off my chest, the following, and then move on (to better spend my time enjoying the benefits I perceive from these supplements and lifestyle choice, though (YMMV) ):

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
Sorry if you interpreted my tone as arrogance, but that was certainly not my intent. If you want to support your position with potentially biased information from the place that sells you supplements, you should be open to some criticism and a facts based discussion. That's all I was saying. I'm frankly awed at the emotional response .

I have simply been playing devil's advocate a little bit.....
:

(Actually, I'd characterize the response as relative to being a bit dumbfounded and exasperated by an apparent flippant dismissal to alternatives to pharmaceuticals, to holistic remedies as a whole, along with being PO'd by a perceived condescending demeanor towards personal life experiences and research, topped with a clear hint of pomposity, and a continual mowing over with the 'yada, yada, yada', we've long heard from the medical establishment on this subject.)

It is also in light of the fact that you or no one else knows the real truth whether or not these supplements are absolutely beneficial individually, as a component of other factors, under certain conditions, relative to diet, lifestyle or genetic make-up, beliefs or whatever....or not. Maybe they are the cherry on top of other influences or factors. Maybe it's all in the minds of certain people and not others.

No one can be part of the solution to find out the truth, but a roadblock, if they continue to maintain and preach skepticism and look through heavily biased lenses and dismiss alternative thinking. Pure design and problem solving requires open-mindedness and consider that maybe there is something to this. Using your background and coming at it from a different perspective has a higher potential of success versus perpetuating this 'controversy'. Maybe it opens other doors and possibilities.

If they are more like Tylenol or Vitamin I, what's the harm to consider the best interest of patients and more strongly suggest they try these supplements and see what happens over time? Maybe they can be taken with other antiinflammatories or joint medicines and then wean the patient of the pharmaceuticals and see if the lag time of the supplements do in fact kick in for some patients?

The link and quote provided was for general information for those interested from someone who apparently did some research and homework. *Just because it's from a supplier, and it's contrary to your skepticism doesn't make it inaccurate or completely biased.....or wrong.....or right....or my personal believes. The information included a good description of the supplements, IMO, and it looks like a large body of research of a supplement that others can possibly use to help them that may actually focus on dealing with the root cause of a problem, versus maybe a drug (that could be more expensive with potential negative side affects) to moderate the affect.

*A skeptical or cynical view is that like profiteers from war and general public fear and uneasiness, the medical industry, insurance and pharmaceutical companies benefit very, very substantially by not actually having healthy people. More sickness, pain, suffering, trauma, etc, equals very generous profits.

Carry on, and hammer away. I need to play with my kid on a bluebird day and stretch my legs and joints.
post #39 of 48
Ugh, I can't believe I'm joining in this but, like Terry, I can't let it go.

Mr TC, (another Terry), has spent years playing basketball, volleyball, dirtbiking, waterskiing, snowskiing...........you get the idea.
When he was in his mid 30's he had his 2nd ortho surgery on his knee. The doctor told him that knee replacement was in his future, but he wanted to wait as long as he could because Terry was too young, and too active.

Mr TC could barely walk a straight line, because his right knee was in constant pain.
August of 1993 Terry broke his femur on his left leg. Ugh, this meant putting the burden on his right leg, thus more aggravation to his right knee.

You can imaging the life of icing and knee braces. Not a fun time.
In November of 1993 I started sneaking GS500 (2-for a total of 1000 mg)into his morning vitamins without telling him what it was because (in his words) He wasn't about to take any voodoo crap for his knee.
Within three months the pain in his knee was far less. That is when I let him in on the Voodoo crap he was taking.
Within 6 months his limp was nearly gone, and within 1 year, he said he was feeling 90%.

This was a mid 30's guy who was giving up things he loved because he was in constant pain. Today he's resumed all of his activities with the exception of Basketball and volleyball. (his new tag line: I prefer sports that require two balls)

Trust me, this ain't placebo.

*Keep in mind that this was relatively new stuff in 1993, costing about 80/month. Now the market has changed and it is around 30/month. Well worth having my husband doing the things he loves.
post #40 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
For some irrational reason I can't let this go and feel compelled to get this off my chest, the following, and then move on (to better spend my time enjoying the benefits I perceive from these supplements and lifestyle choice, though (YMMV) ):

:

(Actually, I'd characterize the response as relative to being a bit dumbfounded and exasperated by an apparent flippant dismissal to alternatives to pharmaceuticals, to holistic remedies as a whole, along with being PO'd by a perceived condescending demeanor towards personal life experiences and research, topped with a clear hint of pomposity, and a continual mowing over with the 'yada, yada, yada', we've long heard from the medical establishment on this subject.)

It is also in light of the fact that you or no one else knows the real truth whether or not these supplements are absolutely beneficial individually, as a component of other factors, under certain conditions, relative to diet, lifestyle or genetic make-up, beliefs or whatever....or not. Maybe they are the cherry on top of other influences or factors. Maybe it's all in the minds of certain people and not others.

No one can be part of the solution to find out the truth, but a roadblock, if they continue to maintain and preach skepticism and look through heavily biased lenses and dismiss alternative thinking. Pure design and problem solving requires open-mindedness and consider that maybe there is something to this. Using your background and coming at it from a different perspective has a higher potential of success versus perpetuating this 'controversy'. Maybe it opens other doors and possibilities.

If they are more like Tylenol or Vitamin I, what's the harm to consider the best interest of patients and more strongly suggest they try these supplements and see what happens over time? Maybe they can be taken with other antiinflammatories or joint medicines and then wean the patient of the pharmaceuticals and see if the lag time of the supplements do in fact kick in for some patients?

The link and quote provided was for general information for those interested from someone who apparently did some research and homework. *Just because it's from a supplier, and it's contrary to your skepticism doesn't make it inaccurate or completely biased.....or wrong.....or right....or my personal believes. The information included a good description of the supplements, IMO, and it looks like a large body of research of a supplement that others can possibly use to help them that may actually focus on dealing with the root cause of a problem, versus maybe a drug (that could be more expensive with potential negative side affects) to moderate the affect.

*A skeptical or cynical view is that like profiteers from war and general public fear and uneasiness, the medical industry, insurance and pharmaceutical companies benefit very, very substantially by not actually having healthy people. More sickness, pain, suffering, trauma, etc, equals very generous profits.

Carry on, and hammer away. I need to play with my kid on a bluebird day and stretch my legs and joints.
You are reading a whole lot into my posts, both by making an unfair generalization of my purported attitude re. alternative remedies, and also by making some rather grandiose statements - not particularly germane to this discussion - in your footnote.

I find it odd how you've personalized the discussion, and I'm going to avoid anything similar in return .

I completely agree that the link you provided has a good description of the relevant molecules in vivo. But that does nothing to explain their function, absorption, transport, biological effect, or potential for disease modification when taken in pill form.

Look, I'm happy to talk with you on the phone if you want - just PM me. Forum posting and emails have a distressing way of creating a perception of 'tone' that isn't at all intended.

I would argue that I'm not being cynical, but yes I'm being skeptical in a purely scientific sense - not a nihilistic sense. There's a big difference.

Both the prescription pharmaceutical and supplement industries are littered with big promises (often based on scanty or no good evidence), and there is a long history of drug/supplement use that turns out to be harmful when proper long term studies are done, despite the fact that the initial proposed mechanisms of action were seductive and appeared on face value to make sense.

So, I'm being cautious, conservative, and yes - skeptical. Anecdotal stories are emotionally uplifting, often persuasive, and should pique the curosity of those willing to fund and design good quality studies.

Far from your characterization of me, I am very open minded, but I owe a duty to my patients to recommend that they spend their money on things that I believe in on the basis of more than anecdotal case reports, marketing, and a pool of largely equivocal studies.

I hope that makes sense. Sorry again if I came on a little strong .
post #41 of 48
This is getting real serious....

I take gloucosamime, and I exercise regularly, riding about 200 miles/week in summer/fall when I'm not skiing/climbing....

My conclusion on this is that the exercise does more for aching joints than any supplement, because when I don't I feel more joint stiffness, and when I take gloucosamine only without exercise there is slight/no improvement....

So here's a plan:
Drip a dose of steroids in your beer every night while watching TV, and call it a day!!
End of story...
post #42 of 48
I take glucosamine for injury induced arthritis. It's main effect seems to be making my fingernails grow faster. It is a cheap placebo, but seems to work all right if I don't over use my wrist. When I do a lot of work with my wrist, I need to use a more effective remedy, I've posted about on these forms before. It works, but in the last decade or so it has gotten too expensive. I guess their pyramid marketing has spread too big:

http://shop.sunrider.com/Shop/Produc...ew all&Cols=0

I'm looking for a replacement herbal remedy.
post #43 of 48
Sorry for getting PO'd for some unknown reason and getting uppity. For that matter, I don't know why I cared enough about this topic to go over the line.

Perhaps it was the 'perceived' (note operative word used previously, correctly or incorrectly) inference that real life personal experience and research is basically irrelevant and doesn't equal studies that someone can site ad nausea. Perhaps it was also the inference that information on site retail (and forum) sites is inaccurate or heavily biased. I take that very personally as it takes a boatload of time and effort while trying to be objective and helpful, with very small relative compensation for the time, effort and expense in my case. By a long, long shot, I'd clearly be better off focusing on my main gig and avoiding forum interaction and and on site information content. Since the futility was very clearly amplified. With the same attitude, we should not believe our doctors because they benefit by prescribed procedures?

I still think there's something at some level that will benefit some individuals for some situations and likely in combination with certain movements and activity.

I should have left my initial response stand:

Quote:
After years of ankle and knee injury related issues where I had some limiting abilities, I started taking Glucosamine + Chondroitin + MSM. I was able to hike, run, tour and ski much better than previously. (Also, helped to quit volleyball and inevitable ankle twists at the net. ) I'm back on after a year hiatus (at least three years of continually use prior) and think it generally helps keep things more flexible than without. Lifting weights, riding, skate skiing and general activity also helps considerably.
and possibly added:

As generally analytical (by profession & nature), I'm skeptical and cynical about holistic remedies and pharmaceutical claims & 'studies'...and their agendas. Years ago, as an experiment and in the interest of reducing joint pain, regaining flexibility, mobility and ability to pursue outdoor activity at a higher level again, along with general mobility and comfort, with an open mind, I started adding C, G & M to my routines and see if the claims bore out. I have been surprised and pleased by the improvements and recommend that individuals consider them. I had regained the ability to aggressively pursue my outdoor and other physically 'demanding' interests, including chasing an active 11 year all over the place.

The placebo effect sounds possible, but if I'm skeptical but hopeful going in, and didn't really think about it day to day, how is that argument valid?

With growing project demands, it's been more than apparent to me that I need to back off from this forum (and should have a while ago ) and definitely stay out of these type of threads.

Again sorry and adieu, everyone.

PS

FWLIW, the grandiose claim was simply a weak attempt at noting an extremely contrarian view about profit motives in the medical, pharmaceutical & insurance versus the view that holistic and alternative options are all baseless and just profit oriented. My view is that it's all a mixed bag and the extremes even have grains of reality and truth in them.

PPS

Wish I received and took this seminar previously:

Quote:
Managing Emotions
Under Pressure
How to stay calm and productive in any situation

Call it self-sabotage ...
That's what many otherwise competent people do to themselves every day. How?
By overreacting emotionally and hurting their relationships — both at work and at home.
By staying stuck in habits that hurt them, such as procrastination, overeating, disorganization, avoiding conflict ... the list goes on and on.
That is why we developed this innovative seminar. It's a new kind of seminar, because you learn a powerful psychological system for changing your negative behaviors permanently.

This seminar will help you:

Respond with a level head — even if you're ready to "blow a fuse"
Adapt to workplace changes — even those that are tough to swallow
Stick with difficult challenges when solutions don't come easily.

Improve yourself — and your relationships with others!
All business is people business. Like it or not, your career depends on how people feel about you — and whether or not they support you.

Yet relationships are fragile. One cross word, bad mood, or mishandled conflict can damage a relationship deeply.

Here's your chance to develop the steady self-control that people respond to and respect. The self-management system taught in this seminar is simple — and proven. It can help you live a happier and less stressful life, starting the very next day.

Spend a few minutes with this e-mail and find out more about this popular one-day seminar.

Is this seminar for you?
Ask yourself:

Does my temper ever get me in trouble?
Do I sometimes rub people the wrong way? (Be honest.) What's the price I pay?
When was the last time I promised to change a habit — and I did?
How far could my career go if I eliminated one or two counter-productive behaviors?
How much time and energy do I spend feeling hurt, guilty, inadequate, worried, or anxious? Where has that gotten me?
How much emotional energy do I waste by overreacting?
Are any of my bad habits rubbing off on my kids?
Are you mad enough about your answers to do something? You can at this groundbreaking seminar.

You'll have fewer conflicts in your life because people won't be able to "push your buttons" anymore. You'll feel strong, confident, and positive.

You'll have higher self-esteem. Self-esteem has more to do with who you are than what you achieve. Discover the crucial difference at this seminar.

You'll get more done with less effort because you'll approach projects with more motivation and mental clarity.

You'll enjoy life more. If you believe that life is better when you're in control, then this seminar is for you.
post #44 of 48
I too am surprised I logged in to reply to this thread!

Me: 56, active, fit. MS Food Micro Biochem minor. So I know enuf to follow and be dangerous! About 5 years ago I could no longer get up easily when lining up a putt on the golf course (knees just would not support me, pain!) A fellow golfer advised G/C which I reluctantly started, I thought it was late nite tv hype. I have to admit that after 3 weeks my pain was gone. After a couple of years developed plantar fascitis. My brother (MD) suggested Aleve, 2x/day. I did. Got rid of p-f and no longer needed G/C.

Last October I ruptured my right quad tendon (see QTR thread in this segment). At my last OS visit, I asked him his opinion on G/C. Hit a nerve. He went into the digestion/metabolism/biomechanism of how G/C would go and why it could not possibly work. I had to agree. Much like jdostefa os saying. Some members of my QTR thread believe in it. I am trying it again, but I cannot justify the biological/biochemical reasons why.

Just thought I would add my little story. Be glad your only issue is knee pain and not QTR or BQTR!

Best!

Bulldog
post #45 of 48
From the Stone Clinic
There are also some links in there too.
http://www.stoneclinic.com/index_glucosamine.htm
I've been taking Tri-Flex from GNC for my shoulders for a number of years.
But I also take lots of Fish Oil.
Does it work? Who knows ,pain sucks. It keeps you from doing what you want to do. So we lay down the $ and buy this stuff in hope that it makes it better.
Dr Stone seems to think it works ,but, he also is the guy selling Joint Juice.
Me ,I'm waiting for them to perfect the skeleton transplant
post #46 of 48
I think the guy that invented DMSO invented MSM. It happened here in Oregon. DMSO is the stuff that is used to transport something thru your skin barrier just by rubbing it on. Wonders of science. Vets use it alot, but there are human applications. Just some trivia on the possible creadability of MSM for joints.
post #47 of 48
Seemed like a good way to lighten the thread....
525x525px-LL-vbattach3353.jpg
post #48 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
Do two things for me:

1) Rather than getting your information from a store that has a vested interest in selling you something, actually read the relevant studies in the medical literature and then feel free to PM me . The NIH study you quoted is problematic re. both the use of subjective pain scales and comparison to placebo with statistically significant, but clinically questionable, effect.

2) Please tell me how these molecules get absorbed from the stomach and transported to the intra-articular space in a reproducable and measureable way.

Regards,
Matt

Honestly, nobody here is doing a really good job arguing it being a placebo or being something helpful.
You can state things all you want. I've been a doctor for 15 years, I have no problems when I take G/C, if I stop taking it. I can no longer use my hands. G/C does not help me with pain, but I am able to use my joints a lot better. I don't know why.
Matt, you are trying to do a good job of arguing your point. But you are being arrogant. You are stating things left and right with no proof to back them up. Who cares what your credentials are. Facts are where it's at bro. They are all that matters. No matter what the drug is, there will always be studies that show for and against it.
This is not a huge debate on who has the bigger wang and can swing it the best.
If your going to discuss a topic, provide facts, and don't slander. I feel that people here are not discussing the pro's and con's, but just picking at each other.
Say all you want, because your opinion is Null without facts, just like my 15 years of being a doctor. It's a bunch of crap. But I can tell you that all I want. I'm just a farmer. I was trying to read on G/C to see if it would benefit me, but I just got to read a huge thread with a few little girls squabbling over words with no facts.

And, just for my .02.
A placebo can only do so much.
If you have pain due to joints rubbing, or nerves, Joint stiffness. I have a hard time believing that a pill of sugar and some brain set would stop these things and make them seem normal. Where are the facts in that? The only way a placebo will work is if the problem that is apparent is created by the brain.
The best you can do with pain is learn to ignore it, but just because you ignore it does not mean you can suddenly gain more mobility.
My shoulder still does not work better because I ignore the pain. Nor does my back.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Fitness, Health, Nutrition, Injury, and Recovery › Any longtime users of chondroitin/glucos/msm