post #31 of 48
4/18/08 at 6:44pm
Do three things for me:
1) Look up 'arrogance' and 'patronizing' in the dictionary and state your findings. (One thing they do is cloud objectivity.)
2) Review the studies yourself and provide us the Cliff Notes and your contrary comments to the studies, point by point.
3) State your relationship and bias towards pharmaceuticals or not.
Making a living in a profession with serious liability consequences, that requires absolute precision at times, absolute subjectivity at others, mixing the two and then dealing with factors from out in left field that don't add up and making 'the right call' (sometimes , I'll bet the truth is somewhere other than what any of us can know for sure to be absolute gospel.
I do know, like MJB & Uncle Louie, it works for me. It may not for others, it may be a lifestyle and balance of other factors like the beer I drink or the fox I married, but there is a kernel of truth that makes me believe these supplements are beneficial. I am far from a couch potato, but am also not going to win any gold medals either, though my activities and capabilities are far above the vast majority of 40 and 50 year olds (and probably a huge amount of 20 and 30 year olds), where they were not before. Adding C, G & M to my 'routine', coupled with regular physical activity, sometimes intense.
This thread tells me: YMMV. Find out what works for you in your own way.
There are no convincing studies (of quality) that suggest a sustainable effect. The best study yet done suggests pain relief on par with plain tylenol, but the biological explanation for this effect is unknown. Further, the biological plausibility of the proposed mechanism of effect on articular cartilage is in the highly unlikely category.
Someone will lots of free time and good funding will likely sit down and do a meta-analysis of all the current research to try to tease out some statistical significance. My advice? Save your money or spend it on dryland training, equipment alignment, and beer.
that's not entirely truth: there is one study supporting benefit for osteoarthritis of the knee. one
I have yet to see this, but I will ask patients about it, thx .
Do you think it has anything to do with both the variation in content of glucosamine among different manufacturers, and the relative rarity of true (anaphylaxis) shellfish allergy?
Sorry if you interpreted my tone as arrogance, but that was certainly not my intent. If you want to support your position with potentially biased information from the place that sells you supplements, you should be open to some criticism and a facts based discussion. That's all I was saying. I'm frankly awed at the emotional response .
I have simply been playing devil's advocate a little bit.....
For some irrational reason I can't let this go and feel compelled to get this off my chest, the following, and then move on (to better spend my time enjoying the benefits I perceive from these supplements and lifestyle choice, though (YMMV) ):
(Actually, I'd characterize the response as relative to being a bit dumbfounded and exasperated by an apparent flippant dismissal to alternatives to pharmaceuticals, to holistic remedies as a whole, along with being PO'd by a perceived condescending demeanor towards personal life experiences and research, topped with a clear hint of pomposity, and a continual mowing over with the 'yada, yada, yada', we've long heard from the medical establishment on this subject.)
It is also in light of the fact that you or no one else knows the real truth whether or not these supplements are absolutely beneficial individually, as a component of other factors, under certain conditions, relative to diet, lifestyle or genetic make-up, beliefs or whatever....or not. Maybe they are the cherry on top of other influences or factors. Maybe it's all in the minds of certain people and not others.
No one can be part of the solution to find out the truth, but a roadblock, if they continue to maintain and preach skepticism and look through heavily biased lenses and dismiss alternative thinking. Pure design and problem solving requires open-mindedness and consider that maybe there is something to this. Using your background and coming at it from a different perspective has a higher potential of success versus perpetuating this 'controversy'. Maybe it opens other doors and possibilities.
If they are more like Tylenol or Vitamin I, what's the harm to consider the best interest of patients and more strongly suggest they try these supplements and see what happens over time? Maybe they can be taken with other antiinflammatories or joint medicines and then wean the patient of the pharmaceuticals and see if the lag time of the supplements do in fact kick in for some patients?
The link and quote provided was for general information for those interested from someone who apparently did some research and homework. *Just because it's from a supplier, and it's contrary to your skepticism doesn't make it inaccurate or completely biased.....or wrong.....or right....or my personal believes. The information included a good description of the supplements, IMO, and it looks like a large body of research of a supplement that others can possibly use to help them that may actually focus on dealing with the root cause of a problem, versus maybe a drug (that could be more expensive with potential negative side affects) to moderate the affect.
*A skeptical or cynical view is that like profiteers from war and general public fear and uneasiness, the medical industry, insurance and pharmaceutical companies benefit very, very substantially by not actually having healthy people. More sickness, pain, suffering, trauma, etc, equals very generous profits.
Carry on, and hammer away. I need to play with my kid on a bluebird day and stretch my legs and joints.
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Do two things for me:
1) Rather than getting your information from a store that has a vested interest in selling you something, actually read the relevant studies in the medical literature and then feel free to PM me . The NIH study you quoted is problematic re. both the use of subjective pain scales and comparison to placebo with statistically significant, but clinically questionable, effect.
2) Please tell me how these molecules get absorbed from the stomach and transported to the intra-articular space in a reproducable and measureable way.