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Rossignol Z3s: Are they really that bad? - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
That's more ski than a Z9. No waveflex with the Mag 10 either. I think the Z9 was softer than the Mag 10, but I think the Mag 10 is overall a better ski. It's easy to ski but has what it takes for a stronger skier.
Is it? I find that kind of surprising. I thought the Z9 was closer to the Mag 12, Volkl AC30, etc. in purpose.

Still, the consensus from people here seems to be that the Mag 8s are not much of an upgrade over the intro-level flows. I don't want to go with the Mag 12 because these are high perf midfats. So the 10 seens like a good balance.

People here don't seem to be very fond of Rossi, I've noticed.
post #32 of 59
Thread Starter 
By the way, I saw a pair of Salomon Typhoons online for a decent price. In ski press they are ranked 3rd (after the SX9 and Tiger 10) among game improvement groomers. However, I haven't seen any reviews here on the site.

Generally speaking, am I better off getting a carver ski (<70mm) or an all-mountain (~75) if I mostly ski the mid atlantic? I have problems with icy conditions, but also with uneven rutted out trails.
post #33 of 59
I haven't skied the latest Rossi skis, but from what I've read and heard, together with my experience on 9S and 9X oversize skis....

Z11 Mutix is good, as is the R11 Mutix.
Z9 Oversize is good as long as you don't want to ski slowly.
VS Oversize ti is good.
9S Oversize is good. (skied it, liked it; didnt like the oh so bland 9X).
post #34 of 59
SERIOUSLY DUDE - get out and demo some gear!!!

Or continue to base everything you do on the reviews you read... I've owned both skis. You can take some advice from someone who has ACTUALLY OWNED both skis, or you can continue to read the reviews. I'll just shut up now. You're on your own.
post #35 of 59
Actually, there are a fair number of Rossi fans here, but they aren't as vocal some other brand loyalists. (But we are mostly Bandit/B2/B3/Squad/whatever the new name is fans, not intermediates. I have and love the B3 myself.) Don't think Rossi is automatically bad.

My gut feeling is that slightly wider will help ride over irregularities without much compromise of carving ability. An truly excellent carver -- narrow, stiff ski with a very short turning radius -- is going to feel grabby to you.
Still, I suspect "too much ski" is mostly a myth till you get to really specialized tools.

Unfortunately, I have no direct knowledge of any of the skis you are thinking about.

When I was first shopping for modern skis, I subscribed to Realskiers too. It is especially valuable if you are looking for info on non-current models (used or left over "new old stock.")
post #36 of 59
Ummm... axebiker? I agree demoing is best, but... Assuming its too late to demo and uricmu wants to take advantage of spring sales, what is your advice? Sounds like you know a lot about these skis.

I think uricmu is edging into the zone I call "buyer's paralysis." I've been there myself. He needs a little help getting unstuck.
post #37 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
SERIOUSLY DUDE - get out and demo some gear!!!
Or continue to base everything you do on the reviews you read... I've owned both skis. You can take some advice from someone who has ACTUALLY OWNED both skis, or you can continue to read the reviews. I'll just shut up now. You're on your own.
[quote=axebiker;892138]SERIOUSLY DUDE - get out and demo some gear!!!
/quote]

I would love to demo. The problem is that my local ski hill store has nothing interesting to demo (and its closed for the season). When I was at Stowe I demoed what their center had: the AC30, the Z9, some Head carver, and a high-end Dynastar. They didn't carry Elans or any lower level stuff. I don't think you guys understand how difficult it is in most places that are not a megaresort to demo something that's midprice. Most places have demoes only for the superexpensive real high-end stuff.

I'm also confused (by now) about what you own. You said you own the Mag 10 and the Z9s?

Is the Mag10 too much ski for me? It sounds like the Mag10 is too much, and the Mag8 is not enough, if i go over the opinions here.

And yea, I am stuck in the buyer paralysis zone. I'm a poor graduate student, and didn't count on buying new equipment so early after buying my first pair at the beginning of the season. However, I feel I outgrew my intro pair. And yes, I'd like to take advantage of the spring sales, especially since I am saving up for a full price boot that actually fits at the beginning of next season. I have irregular tiny feet
post #38 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by uricmu View Post
I don't think I can accurately evaluate ski quality.
I'm not expert in skiing but I think this "theory" applies universally....

If you can't trust your own judgement about what is good/bad for you, then why not keep what you have?

What is wrong with your skis right now? If you know then its probably time to get something that fixes what's wrong there. Else.... what are you looking for in the next pair of ski?
post #39 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
Ummm... axebiker? I agree demoing is best, but... Assuming its too late to demo and uricmu wants to take advantage of spring sales, what is your advice? Sounds like you know a lot about these skis.

I think uricmu is edging into the zone I call "buyer's paralysis." I've been there myself. He needs a little help getting unstuck.
I understand. I'm the "anti-demo-er". I think I've been fairly clear about these skis, but everyone has an opinion, and they're usually different. I just feel that some people put WAYYYY too much stock in reviews, and when you have REAL people talking to you about gear, that's the best time to listen. I'll get to my "sage advice" soon...

Quote:
Originally Posted by uricmu View Post
I would love to demo. The problem is that my local ski hill store has nothing interesting to demo (and its closed for the season). When I was at Stowe I demoed what their center had: the AC30, the Z9, some Head carver, and a high-end Dynastar. They didn't carry Elans or any lower level stuff. I don't think you guys understand how difficult it is in most places that are not a megaresort to demo something that's midprice. Most places have demoes only for the superexpensive real high-end stuff.

I'm also confused (by now) about what you own. You said you own the Mag 10 and the Z9s?

Is the Mag10 too much ski for me? It sounds like the Mag10 is too much, and the Mag8 is not enough, if i go over the opinions here.

And yea, I am stuck in the buyer paralysis zone. I'm a poor graduate student, and didn't count on buying new equipment so early after buying my first pair at the beginning of the season. However, I feel I outgrew my intro pair. And yes, I'd like to take advantage of the spring sales, especially since I am saving up for a full price boot that actually fits at the beginning of next season. I have irregular tiny feet
I have owned TONS of gear. I go through skis like water. I more or less "demo by buying". Considering your situation, I wouldn't advise that -- but it's what I did. I paid for it for many years!!

Now, without having skied with you, it's hard to know a lot about how you ski. With that said, you mention you have a tough time on icy snow or uneven snow. This leads me to conclude that you are a pretty inexperienced skier, and that you could easily be taken for a ride by your gear if you over-buy. Do I think you could ski either the Z9 or Mag 10? Yeah... But do I think the Z5 or the Mag 8 might be a better fit considering your "newbness" (no offense), yeah - I think you'll improve quicker on gear you control rather than gear that controls you. It just depends on how you like to learn. Personally, I like to challenge myself, and I tend to "over-buy" my gear - I buy a step higher than I'm at so I can grow into it.

If you have your heart set on the Mag 10, I would NOT turn you away from it. It's a GREAT ski, and a wonderful all-arounder. I chose it for the dimensions, and because it was the Elan closest to my Mag 14 with the waist dimensions I was looking for. I find it to still be a strong ski despite it being penned as an intermediate/advanced ski. It's just right as an all-around ski for the little hills here in MN. It's pretty turny - but I can shape the turns to my liking.

The Z9 on the other hand, was a bit more damp. Not as much energy. It was also a tad more chattery & nervous on icy snow. I don't think I ever really over-powered it much (I can do that with the Mag 10 if I try), but it definitely has a speed limit, and it ALWAYS wants to be on edge. It really wants to turn and does not track very well in a straight line...

If you have any other questions, by all means, let me know. Sorry to be short with you.

FWIW... Rossi's are about all I've skied on (with a couple exceptions) for the last 15 years. I'm now an "Elan guy". Maybe that tells you something. Maybe.

My quiver:
post #40 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobieboy View Post
I'm not expert in skiing but I think this "theory" applies universally....
If you can't trust your own judgement about what is good/bad for you, then why not keep what you have?
What is wrong with your skis right now? If you know then its probably time to get something that fixes what's wrong there. Else.... what are you looking for in the next pair of ski?
Ah, that's a good question that several people I talked to (who are expert skiers) asked me. The answer is that as an intermediate I can't tell quality (or differentiate quality) but I can sort of tell "lack of quality" in low-end gear.

For example, when I go on frozen corduroy and my teeth chatter, and they don't on the Rossis, it's obvious that the vibration dampening makes a difference. If I hit a deeper patch of snow or crud and I get deflected or sink in a way that I don't on fatter or higher end skis, I notice that. And when I try to go fast (my fast, anyway) and the skis don't feel right on the turn but they do in other skis... You can sort of tell that even without knowing the differences. I feel that to a degree, improving my skiing ability would also depend on having a better ride.

As for what I'm looking for, I'd say that the two most important things are something that dampens some vibrations on uneven surfaces, and a ski that has an easier time floating or carving on rutted and skied-out groomers. Also, the few times I tried going on a manmade mogul, I felt that the skis were completely bending under me more than I expected.

I'm almost tempted to say that I'm looking for something that makes it easy to carve so I should go with something really thin, but that may mask an inability to tip both legs at the same time correctly to change direction, which is what I'm hoping to be able to do reliably. I'm also planning to get new boots (much more important than the skis) that will actually be a good fit.
post #41 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
I understand. I'm the "anti-demo-er". I think I've been fairly clear about these skis
Yea, you have, though you mentioned that you haven't tried the Mag 8s. The ones I thought were yellow mag 8s in your photo turned out to be the 12s.

I agree that my technique definitely needs work. However, my concern (and since the salesman didn't push it, I'm included to think that there's something to it) is that the difference between the fllow 6.2 and the mag 8 is superficial, mostly a slight difference in torsion and the switch to fusion. If I'm already upgrading, it seems to make sense to upgrade to the 10 even though it's more expensive than the 8.

I wish I had a chance to demo them (there are places in Stowe that sell Elans, I think), but I used the on mountain demo the day I was there, and they only had the Rossis and some other stuff. I learned what I didn't like (the AC30 was WAAAY too much ski for me, it also seemed to prefer deeper snow).
post #42 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by uricmu View Post
Yea, you have, though you mentioned that you haven't tried the Mag 8s. The ones I thought were yellow mag 8s in your photo turned out to be the 12s.
Never tried the Mag 8's - I'm a bit too advanced in my technique/style/speed for those skis... Not buying enough ski will make you look just as bad as buying too much ski.

The "yellow skis" are actually orange (they're kinda "reflective", so the flash was a bit harsh), and they're the Mag 14's, not 12's. They're a pretty heavy ski.

Anywhoo, go with the 10 if you think you're up to it. You're young, and in all honesty, I think it's an easy ski to ride. I can't imagine you'll have a lot of trouble over the Mag 8. It's not as damp as the Rossi, but I like a little bit of feedback now that I've been on the Elans. I ski on ice all year long, and they are fine. They do have a speed limit, but I have other skis for when I want to really open it up. These will be my "work skis" next season when I start patrolling.
post #43 of 59

Be patient...

Keep looking for the Magfire 10s...only had mine out on the snow one day since I bought them and they are fun skis. I'd rate my ability as a strong eastern intermediate (on a good day) and I had no problem turning the skis...it's better to try carving a turn but I didn't have any problems skidding them either.
post #44 of 59
FWIW... a friend of mine just got the Flow 8.2. He's a good enough skier to come down any black/double diamond at Tremblant/St. Anne in the east coast here. And to him, the skis are perfectly fine.

When I was demo-ing, somehow I missed the chance to try the Magfire (I bought the Speedwave) but among the few "all mountain" skis I tried (Rossi Z5/Z9, Volkl AC-20) I didn't like them at all as they are not as responsive (rightfully so) as "carving" skis like Speedwave.

I think Flow is more a carving ski than mid fats, so that will change the feel I think.
post #45 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobieboy View Post
FWIW... a friend of mine just got the Flow 8.2. He's a good enough skier to come down any black/double diamond at Tremblant/St. Anne in the east coast here. And to him, the skis are perfectly fine.

I think Flow is more a carving ski than mid fats, so that will change the feel I think.
Is it just the waist that affects carving "ease" or also the sidecut, or does the sidecut have impact only on the radius? The mags have a short turn radius (which I prefer). My current ski has 71mm underfoot but a bigger turn radius.

The speedwave isn't sold in the US from next year and I haven't seen any around. I could go with a carving ski (cyclone, dynastar) if I could find one online and then someone to mount them. I've never been on one and it seems like the carving skis are more difficult to skid around or go on slush/crud/rutted out stuff?

Someone here hinted that more introductory models are beveled(?) to skiers who skid more and wedge more, though I doubt that happens beyond low-level rentals, if at all.

As for the Flow 8.1, it's a different ski than the 6.1. It has the fusion bindings (like the Mags) instead of TMD, it has a different sidewall (PST instead of the one shared by ther 6.1 and the Mag 8). Elan rates it for the same skill level as the Mag 8, which probably says something about both.
post #46 of 59
I'd stick with an "all mountain" ski if I were you. I don't think you'll benefit a whole lot by getting a "carving ski" at this point, given your skill level. The Mag 10 if a pretty good ski for carving FWIW... They work as well for me as my SW12's on all but the iciest snow. Turn radii are almost identical. The Mag 10 has a W-I-D-E shovel, which helps to initiate the turn without a lot of input. It also has the vert sidewall to assist with edge grip on the icy stuff. It's a great all-around ski for the aspiring skier.

Consider this: The waist of the Speedwave is @ 69mm. The Mag 10 is 74mm. 5mm = about 1/4" in width - not much in my eyes. Especially to someone who has a lot of work in the area of technique to accomplish. You won't really notice the difference much if at all.
post #47 of 59
If you are considering a speedwave, consider the speedwave 12.
post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
If you are considering a speedwave, consider the speedwave 12.
YEAH!! Buy mine!! You won't find a better deal.
post #49 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
If you are considering a speedwave, consider the speedwave 12.
I was considering the Speedwave, but unfortunately haven't found anyone who was selling it (at least here in PA or on my trip north).

I'm waiting to see if the guy selling the Mag 10 would reduce his asking price to 40% of MSRP (as I can get with the Mag 8). That mag 8 is without warranty/receipt though still in plastic.

I think I'll go with the all-mountain like Axe suggested; I read more on carving skis in the member reviews and a recurring theme was that the skis want to be on edge all the time; I know that's the right way to ski, but I'm not sure if I can pull it off all the time, especially on uneven snow.
post #50 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
YEAH!! Buy mine!! You won't find a better deal.
Still haven't found someone to buy it?
It looks like a great ski, too bad I'm so short.
post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by uricmu View Post
Still haven't found someone to buy it?
It looks like a great ski, too bad I'm so short.
Nope. Kinda surprising too. They are a fun ski. I just want something that's going to fight me a little more.
post #52 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by uricmu View Post
I was considering the Speedwave, but unfortunately haven't found anyone who was selling it (at least here in PA or on my trip north).

I'm waiting to see if the guy selling the Mag 10 would reduce his asking price to 40% of MSRP (as I can get with the Mag 8). That mag 8 is without warranty/receipt though still in plastic.

I think I'll go with the all-mountain like Axe suggested; I read more on carving skis in the member reviews and a recurring theme was that the skis want to be on edge all the time; I know that's the right way to ski, but I'm not sure if I can pull it off all the time, especially on uneven snow.
It's easy. You don't have to be carving an arc all the time; you just have to have a slight turn going on. I recall skiing the old Elan S8 and S12. The 12 was great, but perhaps a little unforgiving to a newby. The 8 was pretty much useless as far as I could tell, not quite one step up from a cafeteria tray. If you are skiing groomers in the East you are better off with a sub 70 mm ski. If you want to go off the trails the Mag 10 is the better bet.
post #53 of 59
If you're quick you can snag these. http://cgi.ebay.ca/New-Dynastar-Lege...QQcmdZViewItem
post #54 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
If you are skiing groomers in the East you are better off with a sub 70 mm ski. If you want to go off the trails the Mag 10 is the better bet.
I can see the benefit of a sub 70mm in "fresh" frozen curdoroy. But what happens when things get rutted out? Isn't an all mountain better then ?

My local hill (seven springs) has only three decent runs near a high speed lift, so two hours into the session and after some melting it doesn't feel groomed at all.
post #55 of 59
rei.com has
Tiger 10s for $349 (168 & 175)
Gotama 190s for $399
I just bought Mantra 170s for $399
There is a pair of Aura 170s for $399
I am just listing what the Volkl search turned up. You might search for something else, soon. Shipping is free if you have an REI in your town or close. They just ship them to the store. It's like frickin' Xmas picking them up; nice box they ship in.

http://www.rei.com/search?vcat=REI_S...volkl&x=25&y=5

or you can go to www.rei.com and type "volkl" in the search box

What happens is REI returns all their ski gear to the warehouse early in March to make room for Kayaks and bycyles. Super cheap deals start showing up, disappearing, then showing again.

Those scratches all over my body are from sleeping with my new Mantras. Someday I might even ski on them!
post #56 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoeLarryCheese View Post
. They just ship them to the store. It's like frickin' Xmas picking them up; nice box they ship in.
I know, every year I look at their great stuff, but there's nothing close to the size I'm seeking... (around 160 as I'm 5"7).

They have an amazing deal on the XWing 10 (70% off), but alas, at 178cm.
post #57 of 59
You might phone the Mt Hood Meadows Demo/Sales Shop. Lots of short stuff, 40% off. If you have a season pass (I have a season pass) 50% off. I could help you get them shipped etc.
post #58 of 59
post #59 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoeLarryCheese View Post
You might phone the Mt Hood Meadows Demo/Sales Shop. Lots of short stuff, 40% off. If you have a season pass (I have a season pass) 50% off. I could help you get them shipped etc.
Is that for demos or everything? I'll give them a call.

Gosh, your conditions look so good... Can't believe my season's been over for a month.
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