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MA help in the Bumps

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Long time lurker would like some help in the bumps. I was at Keystone yesterday with a friend who managed to get some video of my skiing. I think the run was called Badger. Sorry about the quality but any help would be appreciated. I got real thick skin.

Reed



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIdEQqHk7jc
post #2 of 28
Good skiing. You struggle with the line so I suppose the conditions were far from perfect. Irregular bumps covered with a bit of loose snow on top and probably hard underneath. I could be wrong but thats what it looks to me. Its very steep as well so that adds to the difficulty. Anyway, cannot see much from the video since the filming is crap (simon). The cameraman should be filming oncomming skier and not like in the clip from behind. Make it a habbit to stop close by the cameraman. You can go past but not as far as in the clip. Anyway, great skiing. Do you feel you are flexing and extending enough?
post #3 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Good skiing. You struggle with the line so I suppose the conditions were far from perfect. Anyway, great skiing. Do you feel you are flexing and extending enough?
+1 here on all comments so far. Also, looked like pretty flat light. I'm guessing you could have gone even a bit faster if the sun had been out.

I would only add that you might want to try to keep your hands out front and up just a bit more. Try not to drop your fist right before or after the pole plants. That helps keep your shoulders square and stance forward, though you didn't look particularly back seat anyway. Judges in mogul skiing also look for that-still upper body and all movement happening below the chest.
Nice job
post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the replys.

tdk6, you're right about the conditions. Looks soft on top but rock hard underneath. I don't feel that my extension is where it should be. I usually end up in the back seat. Been trying to keep my toes on the snow as I think most have been suggesting. I notice I drop my left hand especially.

I'm trying to overcome alot of bad habits from my youth. Grew up in the '70s skiing mostly at A Basin where we thought good skiing was bombing from the top of Norway to the bottom with no stops. Had the "Jet Stix", Hanson boots, Hexcel skis and watched alot of Wayne Wong making turn in the bumps on the outside edge of his inside ski. Stopped skiing for years and picked it back up again about 3 years ago. You can see I got a lot to overcome.

Love this board. Don't contribite much because I know so little but read all the thread to pick up what I can about methods, techniques and gear.
Been to see Jeff Bergeron, got a pair of PE's, all because of other members contributions to the various threads.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to up some better video for more serious analysis
post #5 of 28
Reed,

Thanks for posting. You're good enough you deserve better camera work. I especially like the rhythm and flow at the end of the clip. In the early part of the clip your ski tips catch a little air now and then, but overall this skiing shows the payoff of using the lower body to extend and absorb the bumps vs bending at the waist. Another nice aspect of this skiing is that the hands are generally held high and in front.

There are a bunch little things you could work on, but the bigger question is "Where do you want to take your bump skiing?" If you wanted to go the competitive mogul style skiing it would not make sense to try to work on little things. If you wanted more versatility, we'd have you work on adding different tactics, lines, surface conditions, etc. to your toolkit. If you just wanted to tighten up your style my suggestions would be to get more aggressive when recentering your weight, round out the middle of the turns a little more, get more edge angle from tipping your feet and change those intermittent lazy pole touches (where your wrists break laterally outward) into aggressive pole touches (where your thumb moves from vertical to horizontal). These little thing suggestions fall under the turn up the volume category. It's either that or play a different song because this is really nice skiing.
post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 
Hi Rusty,

I was hoping you'd reply.

My goal is simply to be a complete skier. I've never felt "fluid" in the bumps. I've employed alot of the tips I got from this board and feel this year that I'm starting to get it. "Molasses" I think someone wrote. I like that!

"Getting more aggressive when recentering my weight" Does this mean getting more forward, attacking the fall line?

I'm getting more understanding about shaped skis and the tipping motion as opposed to the unweighting motion of my era.

My next MA request may be chutes. I'm going to try to get some video of Gauthier at A Basin

Thanks again
post #7 of 28
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNaka View Post

"Getting more aggressive when recentering my weight" Does this mean getting more forward, attacking the fall line?
FWIW, here's what I see

Laterally, you're banking the turns and weighting the uphill ski. For better control on the descent, the weighting should be on the dh ski.

Fore/aft, you're slightly in the backseat, that's why you're getting some air. If you put pressure on the shin and get that hip forward, that would solve some of the "jetting" from the trough. In addition, the shin pressure (with proper extension) will drive the tips down after you have crested the bumps.

Also, if you could absorb some more by bringing the hip down or think about the heel to the butt, that's another way out of the back seat.
post #9 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNaka View Post
"Getting more aggressive when recentering my weight" Does this mean getting more forward, attacking the fall line?
Reed,

Kinda, sorta. It's not so much about getting more forward as it is about getting to forward faster. There's a subtle mental difference between maintaining ski tip to snow contact and aggressively pushing the tips back down onto the snow and driving them through the next turn. The resulting split second difference in timing is one factor that allows fluidity.

Sometimes, when attacking the little things, progress can be slow. For some people, branching out to new bigger things can bring a new perspective that makes the old little things much easier to work on. For other people, there is a need to resolve the little things before moving on. A coach who knows you well can recommend a path, but we don't know you well enough. Good luck and good skiing.
post #10 of 28
Question is, was this your best bump run of the day?

Skiing bumps all day and just filming on run doesn't sometimes give one's skiing justice. Sometimes in a day of bump skiing for me, if you feel like you had 20 perfect runs out of 40, you've done excellant.

So, I don't think you've got as much to work on as you think. This is a nice run given the conditions. A few things from my perspective, it looks like you're trying to control your speed too much. I don't know if this is because of lack of confidence or fear of going too fast but let go. Attack instead of defend. I think your hands might be a tad high and shorter poles will help get you forward. Hands too high in pole planting will get you backseat too.

This is good skiing
post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
Question is, was this your best bump run of the day?

Skiing bumps all day and just filming on run doesn't sometimes give one's skiing justice. Sometimes in a day of bump skiing for me, if you feel like you had 20 perfect runs out of 40, you've done excellant.

So, I don't think you've got as much to work on as you think. This is a nice run given the conditions. A few things from my perspective, it looks like you're trying to control your speed too much. I don't know if this is because of lack of confidence or fear of going too fast but let go. Attack instead of defend. I think your hands might be a tad high and shorter poles will help get you forward. Hands too high in pole planting will get you backseat too.

This is good skiing
Wasn't the best that I think I have skied. The base was real hard and I was trying to be more precise in my turns for the video. I think that slowed me down. On the other hand, when I'm just bombing I know my technique suffers

Good advice from all. Hope to work on it a bit more before season end.

Maybe hook up with an instructor a A-Basin. Any suggestions?
post #12 of 28
Thread Starter 
Wow,

All I was looking for was a little happy ending.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to do it all. Rip through a mogul field like a WC bumper; carve turns through bumps like "slow mollasses"; or bomb it like an off piste freerider as though they weren't there. I think all these various techniques reflect both discipline and creativity. But, after 51 years I know my time and talents are both finite.

My goal to is to be able to ski any inbound run at any major resort with competence and, hopefully, a bit of flair.

This one kinda ran it course.....internet entropy.
post #13 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNaka View Post
Ideally, I'd like to be able to do it all. Rip through a mogul field like a WC bumper; carve turns through bumps like "slow mollasses"; or bomb it like an off piste freerider as though they weren't there. I think all these various techniques reflect both discipline and creativity. But, after 51 years I know my time and talents are both finite.

My goal to is to be able to ski any inbound run at any major resort with competence and, hopefully, a bit of flair.
Look at the progression of the kids in the you tube vid below. They are not bombing the way down like the guys in the WC tour, they are skiing slower and in control.... and basically using the same techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpfro...eature=related

And this age thing.... I heard of skiers going to mogul camps at your age and into their sixties, if you're in good shape, you can do it. Mogul Logic conducts two camps at Mary Jane in Feb and there are several outfits that hold summer camp.
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
Everytime we talk about bumps there is a debate about which technique is correct. Maybe the topic should be banned like Global Warming.
About the debate, as far as I'm concern it's not about correct techniques but about misconceptions and not giving credit to something due to a lack of understanding.

From my point of view, I would love it if everybody skis comfortably in the bumps no matter how they ski them, that would mean more bump trails and that would make me happy.

Speaking of which, heres a you tube vid from PSIA demo members. It talks or gives a visual about some of the things mentioned during the MA. The only controversial thing is the "putting on the gas pedal", that can open up Pandora's box. If you can look past that, look at how they ski a more direct line, staying on center, in some sections, slightly absorbing and extending to maintain snow contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R56Lcv_gTqM
post #15 of 28
Here is an example of some WC style bump coaching/analysis.

http://www.mogullogic.com/movies/travistiming.wmv
post #16 of 28
post #17 of 28
Hi Reed,


I watched your video and although I don't consider myself to be anexpert bump skier (although I manage just fine), let alone bump instructor I did notice a few things. They've all been metioned above so maybe I can offer a kind of summary.

First off I think you look really good out there, especially given the conditions of the bumps and snow and light clarity. You look to be at ease and you are definately in control all the way down.
I do also see a little bit of backseat positioning but mostly I would advise a more active approach. More flexing in the legs (not folding the upperbody as someone mentioned) and a more agressive forward motion. A good solid ploe plant(with poles rather too short than too long) might take you a long way in the right direction. Th epreparation and the plant itself will bring you forward and when you plant with a firm motion so will that forward motion be firm.
Flexing the legs more and lowering the pelvis can pretty much go both ways, it can throw you back but in combination with that pole plant should bring you forward. You'll have more room to anticipate the troughs and the bumps and your upperbody should be able to stabilize more, keeping you out of the backseat.

Good skiing, me likey!!
post #18 of 28

so many choices, what sensations do YOU like?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNaka View Post
Wow,

All I was looking for was a little happy ending.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to do it all. Rip through a mogul field like a WC bumper; carve turns through bumps like "slow mollasses"; or bomb it like an off piste freerider as though they weren't there. I think all these various techniques reflect both discipline and creativity. But, after 51 years I know my time and talents are both finite.

My goal to is to be able to ski any inbound run at any major resort with competence and, hopefully, a bit of flair.

This one kinda ran it course.....internet entropy.
Nice skiing, tough video, as has been mentioned repeatedly...

I'm guessing I might be the "slow molasses" guy you are referring to here, since i use that image, "flowing like mollasses" quite often. a run of my mogul skiing is shown here on epic, on a long relatively steep mogul run, so there are no secrets about my leanings... I'm probably one of the instructors that the WC bump proponents have warned you about, except, I'm very open minded.

In this internet entropy, you've gotten great insight into a vaiety of things, but also more us vs. them. I think that is unneccessary.

The WC guys ski for the judge, they are trying to look a certain way for points and speed in a course that was designed for the turn they are making. If that is the sensation you want, then there have been great links to some good programs here. It is great skiing and doesn't need to be super hard on the back, but there is considerable impact, even if its just when you make a mistake and mis time an absorb.

Skiing more ski design and mixing up the line isn't wrong either. Its just another choice and a different set of sensations. Unlike the WC mogul guys that are skiing for somebody else, I ski for myself and would guess that most of us do. Because of that, we look for sensations that make us feel good and try to recreate those.

So many choices... learn as full of range on the continuum of good skiing as you can and mix it up, find out what makes you happy and enjoy the bumps. they are great fun and always presenting new problem solving situations and great fun.

Cheers,
Holiday
post #19 of 28
All posts diverging from the original posters request for MA have been deleted.
Carry on.

EDIT=Cirquerider: Posts removed from here can now be found in the Bumpskiing technique discussion in Technique and Analysis. Discussion in this thread should address issues in the first post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNaka View Post
Long time lurker would like some help in the bumps. I was at Keystone yesterday with a friend who managed to get some video of my skiing. I think the run was called Badger. Sorry about the quality but any help would be appreciated. I got real thick skin.

Reed



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIdEQqHk7jc
post #20 of 28
dropping right hand, as first response said.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
My goal to is to be able to ski any inbound run at any major resort with competence and, hopefully, a bit of flair.
In your own estimation, have you achieved your goal, Reed? I'd bet you could say that about all the runs at Bridger Bowl, which ain't no sissy mountain.
post #22 of 28
Thread Starter 

Round 2 Help in the bumps

Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
I would only add that you might want to try to keep your hands out front and up just a bit more. Try not to drop your fist right before or after the pole plants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
There are a bunch little things you could work on, but the bigger question is "Where do you want to take your bump skiing?" If you wanted to go the competitive mogul style skiing it would not make sense to try to work on little things. If you wanted more versatility, we'd have you work on adding different tactics, lines, surface conditions, etc. to your toolkit. If you just wanted to tighten up your style my suggestions would be to get more aggressive when recentering your weight, round out the middle of the turns a little more, get more edge angle from tipping your feet and change those intermittent lazy pole touches (where your wrists break laterally outward) into aggressive pole touches (where your thumb moves from vertical to horizontal). These little thing suggestions fall under the turn up the volume category. It's either that or play a different song because this is really nice skiing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post
FWIW, here's what I see

Laterally, you're banking the turns and weighting the uphill ski. For better control on the descent, the weighting should be on the dh ski.

Fore/aft, you're slightly in the backseat, that's why you're getting some air. If you put pressure on the shin and get that hip forward, that would solve some of the "jetting" from the trough. In addition, the shin pressure (with proper extension) will drive the tips down after you have crested the bumps.

Also, if you could absorb some more by bringing the hip down or think about the heel to the butt, that's another way out of the back seat.
Thanks for all the feedback,

Here's a better video taken yesterday at Vail, (can you believe the conditions).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2lb9rnkZQ0

I can see all the issues previously raised, hand position, banking, extension, etc. but when I'm skiing there's almost too much to think about. If I were to work on only one of my problems what you suggest be the most useful to help me be more fluid?

Thanks,

Reed
post #23 of 28
:

Reed,

Nice snow! And more nice bump skiing.

One suggestion to get more fluid: take your core straighter down the fall line and let your legs get out more laterally away from your body.
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNaka View Post
I can see all the issues previously raised, hand position, banking, extension, etc. but when I'm skiing there's almost too much to think about. If I were to work on only one of my problems what you suggest be the most useful to help me be more fluid?

IMO, commitment to the dh ski.

Having said that, some of the other issues mentioned can be practiced on the flats with short radius turns; keeping the hands out front, weight shift, lateral and fore/aft position. In addition, look for bump fields on a low angle pitch, it makes things slow down so that you can hone in on the timing and movements.

Also, in terms WC tech, one thing I noticed with the new vid is the poling is too early, you can clearly see this on the second sequence. You’re planting on the font side of the bump, it should be done on the backside, BMM had a nice visual on another thread. Along with his explanation, the advantage on planting on the backside is that it keeps you forward and helps in maintaining the pressure on the front of the ski.

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=47


Hope that helps.
post #25 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
:One suggestion to get more fluid: take your core straighter down the fall line and let your legs get out more laterally away from your body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post
IMO, commitment to the dh ski.
I think what you're both saying are somewhat related. I have a problem engaging my downhill ski and end up "banking" my turns which takes my core out of the fall line

I'm severely bowlegged and have always had problems getting on my inside edge and compensate by using my uphill ski. Went to Jeff Bergeron for fitting but I think I need more work, especially with my left ski.

Thanks again for your help.

Funny thing about the poleplant, I though from the picture that he was saying to plant on the frontside of the hill...Duh:
post #26 of 28
Reed;

There's a really basic drill to work on hands out front and still. Find a run that doesn't have bumps but is still a little challenging. Ski it with your hands out front, elbows at about 90* with forearms parallel with the ground, fists thumb side up like you are aiming a pistol at the horizon, and your poles lying across your wrists, just sitting on top of your arms. I tried to find an image and was very surprised I couldn't because this used to be a very popular drill. Ohers, feel free to add it for me if you have it or can find it.
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNaka View Post
Funny thing about the poleplant, I though from the picture that he was saying to plant on the frontside of the hill...Duh:
We were just having a discussion about this recently somewhere else...

The best place to plant your pole in the bumps depends on the tactics you are choosing. You'll see various advice from the fronts (wider line), to the tops, to the back (zipper line).
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
The best place to plant your pole in the bumps depends on the tactics you are choosing. You'll see various advice from the fronts (wider line), to the tops, to the back (zipper line).
IMO, you can break that down into the fundamental concept of planting to start a turn. So, on a wider line, I can see planting on the front side pending where the turn transition occurs. When skiing a more direct line down, the turn transition happens at or after the crest of the bumps, the plant triggers the start of the new turn. With hands held out front, the movement forces the pole touch on the backside.
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