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Why don't these guys spread their stance and carve...... - Page 2

post #31 of 99
Thread Starter 
More of "lets go off a cliff and crash our brains out......we basically can't turn because we're so out of balance and lack basic skiing skill"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRL7o...eature=related
post #32 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
I know a guide who has skied "varied terrain" with each of them (at different times).

He says it's absolutely other-worldly how good Bode is at ANY terrain or conditions. And this guide is someone who has watched and skied with just about every bigtime free-skier you can name.

Not to take anything away from Plake, but I doubt that it would even be a contest.
I know a guy who skied with the Herminator while attempting his Austrian teaching degree. HE basically tells the same story. Maier rips EVERYTHING! Icy groomers, pow, bumps, you name it.
I would refrain from judging one's skiing abilities on various terrain when you've only seen them in one. I would not dismiss WC skiers as "one trick ponies" and the lesser allround skiers.
post #33 of 99
post #34 of 99
BushwackerinPA,

What was the point of that video? There was very little skiing, and what little there was wasn't impressive at all. Perhaps, I am missing the point. Are you presenting that in support of previous comments, ie. poor skiers don't ski moguls, they just like to bounce down hills? OTOH, there was a lot of fluff in the video, just not much skiing.

Once again, your point was?
post #35 of 99
Bushwhacker,

Snowbird always looks great, don't it??

I don't see the wide-stance in those skiers btw. When they recover from high speed landing (and they aren't wiping out, of course) they throw out the wide speed-checking platform, but when they start turning and skiing out-I was surprised at how narrow many of them were-check out the skier at minutes 2:45-2:52-probably doing the most actual 'skiing' of anyone in that video-he's pretty narrow (and looks marvelous!). Yeah-nowhere near as narrow as the Fistful of moguls guys-but still, pretty narrow.

Freeskiing is pretty awesome-let's me dare to dream.

Liam
post #36 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooberhead View Post
More of "lets go off a cliff and crash our brains out......we basically can't turn because we're so out of balance and lack basic skiing skill"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRL7o...eature=related
lets see a video of you skiing the smae terrain, seriousally if you going to say someone else cant ski I highly doubt you could hold it together as well as those guys...

I highly doubt at this point you could keep up with me at Snowbird, and I am less than mediocore at best.
post #37 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
lets see a video of you skiing the smae terrain, seriousally if you going to say someone else cant ski I highly doubt you could hold it together as well as those guys...

I highly doubt at this point you could keep up with me at Snowbird, and I am less than mediocore at best.
Sometimes skiing is more about control than speed. Bode is way fast......but is under control.......unlike the guys you show in the video.
Those are the kind of guys that ski over their head and injure themselves or other skiers.

There are impressive extreme skiing videos with linked turns on unbelievably steep terrain........the stuff you showed looked silly compared
to some of the videos I see in the bars. Nobis, Coombs......impressive.
BUT......I don't ski terrain that if I fall I die....and I don't ski where there's no avalanche control.....I've got three kids in college who don't need their dad buried in a slide or going off cliffs so they can push me around drooling in a wheelchair......
The extreme guys take those risks.....and sometimes they die.....heli ski guiding in Alaska is the most dangerous job in the world.......
post #38 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooberhead View Post
You might be right......but most racers I've seen have a distinct style that doesn't carry over well to all terrain..... bumps especially.
Maybe Bode skiied alot of bumps when he was young
There is a big difference between skiing freestyle bumps competitvely and freesking the troughs of bumps. (actually I hate watching it and anytime I tune in and mogul competition is on I'll do something else.) The competitve bump skiers ski with their skis locked together as one platform slightly in the back seat and basically wiggling & bashing down the hill. Carving is not attempted. And yes as someone said above, freestyle bump competition looks no different then it did in the old straight ski days. I have never had and never will have the desire to ski bumps like that.

This is a completely different sort of bump skiing then a top notch recreational skier skiing the troughs and carving most turns with more of a normal (although slightly narrower) stance and independent leg action. On the contrary, race technique can serve you very well in this type of bump skiing.This type of bump skiing is very much akin to racing. You must keep your line to stay in the the troughs. I always try to avoid going up and over the tops of bumps and do everything I can to stay in the troughs. I practiced this for years, skiing just slightly faster then I was comfortable with. This practice served me extremely well in a race course and honestly everywhere else on the hill. If you can accomplish this and keep your skis in constant contact with the snow you have really accomplished something !

And yes, I believe Bode will kick anyone's ass freeskiing. i have seen video of him skiing bumps and different types of snow. Nothing short of amazing. And you guys know how much he irritates me!
post #39 of 99
You guys have links to videos of Bode doing any sort of freeskiing? I think that would be interesting.
post #40 of 99
Thread Starter 
Found some racers freeskiing.....hmmmm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTboYL8CjaU&NR=1
post #41 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
I know a guide who has skied "varied terrain" with each of them (at different times).

He says it's absolutely other-worldly how good Bode is at ANY terrain or conditions. And this guide is someone who has watched and skied with just about every bigtime free-skier you can name.

Not to take anything away from Plake, but I doubt that it would even be a contest.
I totally believe that--sportskool has a sequence of ski lessons with Bode and McNichol here--

http://www.sportskool.com/videos/pole-planting

--most of the lesson is on groomers, but starting at about 8:30 there's about 35 secs of Bode skiing some bumps & crud. It's not gnarly terrain, but its a chance to see Bode just having fun on skis and its a joy to watch, I had to look at it 3 or 4 times just for the fun of it. The man can really ski.
post #42 of 99
Years ago Gravity posted about seeing Marc Ghiradelli (sp?) and his coach on the hill in Europe somewhere. They were both carrying a bundle of gates on their shoulders, skiing side by side down a mogul field and carrying on a conversation.

The idea that top level racers are deficient in free skiing is absurd.

As for pro mogul skiers, I think it's very impressive. You really have to see it in slo mo to see their turns but they are actually turning. The imitators will bash but the good ones are not. I have to say I agree with Plake's comments above.
BushMogulMaster posted this link in another thread. Check out the turns made in mogul comp in slo mo:

http://www.mogullogic.com/movies/sammiabsorption.wmv

As for the competition, I much prefer the "out of control" type of skiing of freestyle mogul comps in the early 70's. There you could even fall and as long as you didn't stop it was ok. I'd love to see wc mogul skiing change the timing rules that force everything to be zipperline. A mix of different lines would be far more interesting.
post #43 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by cometjo View Post
I totally believe that--sportskool has a sequence of ski lessons with Bode and McNichol here--

http://www.sportskool.com/videos/pole-planting

--most of the lesson is on groomers, but starting at about 8:30 there's about 35 secs of Bode skiing some bumps & crud. It's not gnarly terrain, but its a chance to see Bode just having fun on skis and its a joy to watch, I had to look at it 3 or 4 times just for the fun of it. The man can really ski.
btw--you don't have to watch the whole thing--once the video has loaded (about 30 secs) you can move the counter to where you want.
post #44 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigNick View Post
BushwackerinPA,
What was the point of that video? There was very little skiing, and what little there was wasn't impressive at all. Perhaps, I am missing the point. Are you presenting that in support of previous comments, ie. poor skiers don't ski moguls, they just like to bounce down hills? OTOH, there was a lot of fluff in the video, just not much skiing.
Once again, your point was?
Yeah...
post #45 of 99
Thread Starter 
That video confirms what I thought........looks like a racer trying to ski bumps........lets see him in some big steep ones like Als or Limelight.....
how can you even compare that to Plake??? You call that crud????
Cmon.....
post #46 of 99
Haven't skied with Bode, but personal support for Atomicman's, other's comments about racing and bumps: I began taking coupla lessons a week this year from a race coach, started running gates in middle age. Few weeks ago found myself in a major bump field out west (Exhibition at SV). Usually avoid them cuz of my knees, but no easy exit this time, so I pushed off and prepared for the usual "well, I survived that again."

Only this time it felt like I was flowing through those suckers. No fuss, not much bother, no pain afterward. : So freaked out, I went after another set. Same thing. It felt like everything was slower, easier to see, more choices. Finally realized that without thinking I was applying a lot of the new bits I'm learning - retraction, rotary when needed, dynamic COM, choosing when and how much to steer the inside ski - the usual stuff, and it was making my technique in the moguls a whole lot smoother. I'm still no threat to make the U.S. mogul squad, let alone beat the average J1 in the gates, and my knees still don't much like the end of the day, but suddenly bumps are approaching fun.

But look Gooberhead, I mostly wasn't carving, or at least unless I chose to, and I don't think the whole premise of that is relevant. It's not about whether racing makes you carve bumps. It's about whether racing teaches your entire body to adapt to whatever's around you, and react appropriately. Make that a yes vote!
post #47 of 99
Thread Starter 
I've just seen recreational skiing go backwards with the instructors shoving down the throats of students the modern technique of two footed carving.
It wasn't that long ago (1990 or so) that people could go from groomers, to crud to bumps......and ski all kinds of techniques......feet together for zipperline.......race technique for the course......but the whole difference was people could keep their shoulders square to the fall line in the steepest of terrain and turn quick enough to keep their speed under control. And they could ski the toughest snow with the narrow long skis.
I get on my big stix and the steepest deepest crappiest snow is EASY.
What's still a challenge without risking your life is mogul skiing.....wanna make it harder??? Just pick firmer snow or a steeper narrower run.
Not so with everything else......wanna challenge?......you have to risk your life with gap jumps, cliffs, extreme steeps where if you fall you die.
Then there's the whole money aspect of extreme sports......choppers, film crews.......Jaime Pierre setting a "record" landing on his head......of course with jet fuel topping 5 a gallon it may put a damper on some of this excessive consumption.
post #48 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Haven't skied with Bode, but personal support for Atomicman's, other's comments about racing and bumps: I began taking coupla lessons a week this year from a race coach, started running gates in middle age. Few weeks ago found myself in a major bump field out west (Exhibition at SV). Usually avoid them cuz of my knees, but no easy exit this time, so I pushed off and prepared for the usual "well, I survived that again."

Only this time it felt like I was flowing through those suckers. No fuss, not much bother, no pain afterward. : So freaked out, I went after another set. Same thing. It felt like everything was slower, easier to see, more choices. Finally realized that without thinking I was applying a lot of the new bits I'm learning - retraction, rotary when needed, dynamic COM, choosing when and how much to steer the inside ski - the usual stuff, and it was making my technique in the moguls a whole lot smoother. I'm still no threat to make the U.S. mogul squad, let alone beat the average J1 in the gates, and my knees still don't much like the end of the day, but suddenly bumps are approaching fun.

But look Gooberhead, I mostly wasn't carving, or at least unless I chose to, and I don't think the whole premise of that is relevant. It's not about whether racing makes you carve bumps. It's about whether racing teaches your entire body to adapt to whatever's around you, and react appropriately. Make that a yes vote!

Good deal. I myself can't zipperline a mogul field and I ski the troughs like you. I would say not only did the gates help because of technique......but also got you in better condition and forced you to turn at certain times and look ahead.......much like moguls......can't miss a a turn and you have to look ahead.

My contention on racers being good freeskiers would be because they are SO strong.......conditioning is such a huge factor in how you ski. Better be in shape for the bumps......which is my big downfall.......
post #49 of 99
Thread Starter 
Here's a kid that was a great junior racer.......now a WC mogul skier
notice the quick turns on flat terrain with square shoulders and close feet......that's what today's skiers need to practice......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGCtK....com/media.htm
post #50 of 99
Telemark the bumps. The extra range of motion makes all the difference. Watch the Deneen kid doing those quick javelin turns.
post #51 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Telemark the bumps. The extra range of motion makes all the difference. Watch the Deneen kid doing those quick javelin turns.
Good point.......it would be ugly if I tried it......ouch!
post #52 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooberhead View Post
Good point.......it would be ugly if I tried it......ouch!
Nah, you can do it. Make quick turns on even terrain, then take it to the bumps! The javelin turns really have nothing to do with telemark except it looked like telemark for a second, then I thought about how much telermark has enhanced my enjoyment of moguls. I loved moguls before I telemarked, love 'em more now.
post #53 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Nah, you can do it. Make quick turns on even terrain, then take it to the bumps! The javelin turns really have nothing to do with telemark except it looked like telemark for a second, then I thought about how much telermark has enhanced my enjoyment of moguls. I loved moguls before I telemarked, love 'em more now.
Sure would get the quads glutes and hammies in shape.
Can I slap some telemark bindings on my Mantras.....or do I need a specific telemark ski?
post #54 of 99
I don't know about fat skis, I'm strictly on the straight and narrow, but generally speaking the same ski you would use for alpine, consider expected use, terrain, conditions, account for skill level, your personal preferences concerning, length, stiffness, lively/damp, width, etc., etc.

Yes, any ski will work.
post #55 of 99
Thread Starter 
Thanks......might give it a try next season
post #56 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooberhead View Post
Here's a kid that was a great junior racer.......now a WC mogul skier
notice the quick turns on flat terrain with square shoulders and close feet......that's what today's skiers need to practice......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGCtK....com/media.htm

Yeah, he looks pretty great-what is the drill he's doing when he apparently curls one foot and ski completely beneath the other in a series of rapid fire turns?? It's so quick I can hardly get a sense of what he's doing (like high speed mini javelin arc on steroids)--is it just showing off or is it a particular drill (and how is it done)? Fun video.
post #57 of 99
One additional point that I don't hink anyone mentioned is these guys are zipperlining seeded bumps that are perfectly symmetrical. You can't do that when the troughs and bumps are all different sizes and the troughs are all different shapes and depths.
post #58 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
One additional point that I don't hink anyone mentioned is these guys are zipperlining seeded bumps that are perfectly symmetrical. You can't do that when the troughs and bumps are all different sizes and the troughs are all different shapes and depths.
I don't know about that-if you look at the first video gooberhead posted from fistful of moguls-all that on the July Whistler glacier wasn't seeded competition-manicured bumps. Besides-I've seen plenty of folks (as I'm sure you have too) who rip competition-style zipperline on regular bumps--Joemammoth back in december put up a lengthy video of him and his buds ripping "everyday" bumps competition style, I think if you have those types of bump skills you can bust 'em out in any bump field...though, the well-made kickers sure help with the aerials.
post #59 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
One additional point that I don't hink anyone mentioned is these guys are zipperlining seeded bumps that are perfectly symmetrical. You can't do that when the troughs and bumps are all different sizes and the troughs are all different shapes and depths.

I got schooled by Evan Dybvig up at Whaleback (NH) several weeks back. He doesn't seed his place, all bumps were skier/rider made. He place a strong emphasis on being center and loading the front of the skis to make the turns (an approach very similar to the Deneen vid). He said that it more important to do this when the terrain is not symmetrical, once you come up on a tricky section or something that surprises you, if you're centered and balanced then you make the type of move you want to make with power and/or control.

He noticed that I had lousy fore/aft position after my turns, we talked about it and agreed that it was the symmetrical bumps I was skiing at another place. Basically, I was relying the front side of the bump to slowed my ski so that I can move my hip in proper position, if a bump doesn't come up then I was stuck in the back seat and couldn't control my upcoming turn. Thus, symmetrical terrain does not really stress good center position, one can get away with poor techniques, I can say that for my case as well as another vid I have seen.

BTW; for those who don't know, Evan Dybvig was a 2x olympian, us mogul champ and placed in wc events.
post #60 of 99
Stance problem solved :



You're welcome.
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