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Park City WARNING - Page 2

post #31 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiing_TEX View Post
A point on pointless pointing, is that even posible?
thats right its "department of redundancy" which would be an awesome monty python skit.






















must derail thread or get it back to the OP....
post #32 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
I ski at alta because there I can ski with other fascist like myself.
See - that's why I love Alta too.


As much as I agree with putting flailing dopes in jail, I really hate to see more laws.
post #33 of 55
it's tough skiing under a facist regime
post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
it's tough skiing under a facist regime
All Hail Marx and Lennon!

(Relates to "department of redundancy department" also from Firesign Theatre IIRC.)
post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Will some newbie patroller with five years experience, power tripping, charge me with reckless skiing just because he is afraid to ski as fast on his RX6s as I am skiing on my SGs?
How many years would someone have to patrol, in your judgement, to have the skill to recognize reckless skiing?

Have you encountered the patrol you describe on the staff at Park City?
post #36 of 55
I'm not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express recently...

So, are the ski areas going to make the ski patrol peace officers? Not sure about the laws in Utah, but I'm pretty sure here in NY you have to be designated as a peace officer to enforce laws. Enforcing private entity policy is pretty easy to do by simply removing the offender's right to use said entity's goods and services (pulling the ski pass). Charging someone with a violation of law is something completely different. I would guess that liability insurance would increase if they make patrollers peace officers.

Do patrollers have the authority to detain someone if that someone decides that he/she is not going to put up with their $#!% (offender's words, not mine) and walk away before the authorities arrive? Unless they are designated peace officers, they could be charged with kidnapping for trying such a stunt (again, this is in NY). I've often wondered about this when I see the "theft of services" notices at ski areas.

Or is the town going to open a police station annex at each ski resort? Again, how do you compel the offender to go to the station? If the Utah State Police develops an on-mountain skiing detail, I want to sign up!

There may be some real lawyers that are on here. School me if I've said some incorrect things.
post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
How many years would someone have to patrol, in your judgement, to have the skill to recognize reckless skiing?

Have you encountered the patrol you describe on the staff at Park City?
Experience: I don't think it is a matter of years, more a matter of experience at speed on speed equipment.
Attitude: I hope that people choose their patrollers wisely, but there are power trippers in a lot of enforcement areas.
post #38 of 55
Seems like Powdr Corp. is making a stand against reckless behavior. PC,Ut. and Mt.B,Or. are both owned by them and a few weeks ago Mt.B put out the word about reckless skiing also. Good for Powdr Corp.
post #39 of 55
Any incident that falls under the law would first be investigated by the ski patrol as they are the ones who are the first responders. They would be the ones on the scene writing the incident report that covers the accident.

If the case went to court, they would be the main 'expert' wittness along with any other wittnesses to the events.

Regardless, if the patrol report indictes the rider was skiing or boarding out of control and caused an accident, I would say your chances are not good in a court of law. I am sure a jive talking lawyer could call their own expert wittness but they were not the ones on the scene.

These laws are good IMO as it may cause people to slow down and really think about what they are doing and uderstand there are consequences for their actions. Ski slopes are not about anarchy -- skiing and boarding isn't the Road Warrior entering the Thunderdome, although many think it is. If you want to ski out of control go to the back country where you can do whatever you like.
post #40 of 55
HEY!! YOU TALKIN' TO ME?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

with a name like carvemeister are you prepared to go back to straightskis?
Yes, Im prepared if so ordered. However, that's not my real name. My real name is I.M. 2hip4yerhlafpipe but sometimes it's hard for me to remember, so I gave myself one of those German nicknames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
without snowboards alot of skis areas wouldnt not be open right now.
Which ones? I'll make sure not to go there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
without snowboards we would all still be skiing on 205 cm SL skis.
Well then God Bless Eli Whitney cause If he hadn't been born you'd be ridin' switch wearing nothing but a fig leaf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
without snowboards twin tip skis wouldnt exist.
Not even in the land that invented the wooden shoe? You can prove this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
also saying you hate snowboarders is saying all this at the same time.
Hate the riders? NO! Love the witch. Hate the broom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
I am groomer whore and never leave there, there for snowboards scare me.

I also form prejudices towards people based on no real basis for it.
People + skis = good. People + snowboards = bad. FACT (96%)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
I ski at alta because there I can ski with other fascist like myself.
I have skied with fascists. They're pretty good. Alta is pretty good too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
snowboarders are good, the fact young kids can straightline a board with out much effort is not. Simple solution ski some place on the hill where straightlining snowboarder cant get to you.
If snowboarders can find a way to git ya...They will.
No place to run + No place to hide = 96% Scientifically proven fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
also for all you snowboarding hating alta lovers out there.
Nobody cares you ski at alta!!

I guess you haven't met my mom then...cause that's one bogus statement right there!

post #41 of 55
If you want to get legal with it you need to look at the intent of the law. did lawmakers intend for this law to apply to everyone who at one time or another skis out of control or recklessly. If so everyone would be guilty at some point in there life. this law is to serve as a deterrent to those who would otherwise be reckless and as a way of punishing those who cause accidents do to reckless or uncontrolled behavior. so if you get yelled at for going to fast on a crowded run they probably wont apply this law to you. if you go down a black that you cant handle and put yourself and someone else in the hospital, expect a visit from the PD, or DA.

and on to the whole why do all you skiers hate us snowboarders so much.

1. there are some reasons that tend to promote this viewpoint (even if the viewpoint may not be 100% true)

2. Snowboarding is extremely popular with the young crowd.

3. young people in general make bad decision and tend to have not so good judgment all the time
4. young people feel little too no fear and often don't understand the term consequences.

5. young people are often rude, particularly to what they see as the old man generation because what do they know.
6. Snowboarding is dangerous (as with all snow sports) and more difficult to learn than skiing.

7. skiers have been around for generations and snowboarders are relatively new to the Mt.

so what you have are a bunch of reckless, rude, and fearless young bucks engaging in a dangerous activity that is difficult to learn while on what used to be skier turf. of course there is a little resentment/blame out there. Personally i think that boarders tend to be a bigger part of the problem but i know that is only because their are more inexperienced snowboarders then skiers out there these days.
post #42 of 55
On any given day I see as many out of control skiers as I do boarders. In fact, I see more out of control skiers as the new boarders are usually hanging on for dear life and going 3 MPH where newer skiers are flying down the hill in a wedge. The boarders who are comfortable going fast eneough to be reckless usually have progressed to the point where they have acquired control over the board. With skiers, however, its easier to just fly down the hill, even on your first day.

As far as young riders behaving like anti-social deviants-- this applies accross the board. Most young skiers are on twin tips. Both young skiers and boarders like to cuss and swear vehemently, especially while riding the lift. Lack of maturity is not dependant on whats on your feet.

Unlike skiers, however, it's when boarders are not moving that they present the most danger IMO, and this is my only gripe about them. They always plop down in the middle of a run to adjust their bindings -- usually in packs of 6 or more. If it's a wide trail its no big deal as you just move around them. Most of the time, howeer, they do this in crowded traffic and often on narrower trails.

Often they do this over a lip or somewhere where its hard to see them. I understand that's the reality of having two feet attached to one plank but why do you have to do it in the middle of the run?

Technically, I guess this is not out of control but it is perhaps reckless.
post #43 of 55
MoJo i have to agree that's why in my prev post i say young people not young snowboarders. IMHO it is the close association between the rebellious youth and boarders that is giveing them a bad rap with ski croud. sometimes when i see a board ploped in the middle of a run and out of sight from up hill i will make a bit of a show of stoping and give them a few choice words of wisdom as I go by.
post #44 of 55
"I'm a skiing Texan hollering at you!"
post #45 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salomon View Post
...the problems come from "THEM" dirty rotten no good for nothing snowboarders!!!!!
...Or instead of a group of boarders "sitting" on a run...
YES!! You rock brother. 100% correct! Right on!
post #46 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjohansson View Post
... I'm pretty sure here in NY you have to be designated as a peace officer to enforce laws. Enforcing private entity policy is pretty easy to do by simply removing the offender's right to use said entity's goods and services (pulling the ski pass). Charging someone with a violation of law is something completely different. I would guess that liability insurance would increase if they make patrollers peace officers.

Do patrollers have the authority to detain someone if that someone decides that he/she is not going to put up with their $#!% (offender's words, not mine) and walk away before the authorities arrive? Unless they are designated peace officers, they could be charged with kidnapping for trying such a stunt (again, this is in NY).
Actually, speaking strictly for NYS, anybody can make an arrest, not just peace officers. It's called a Civilian Arrest - shoplifting is the most common example. A store employee (but actually anyone) can make such an arrest as long as the crime was committed in his presence. Even when police arrive and possibly take the offender to the local precinct it is usually processed as a civilian arrest made by the store employee.

In NYS anybody can make an arrest for ANY offense as long as it is committed in his presence. The only exception to that is if the offense is a Felony in which case you need not have been present at all. The big catch however, is that a civilian has virtually no legal protection if there is any mistake made in the identification of the "suspect" or if what he/she thinks they witnessed lacks any element(s) required to support an offense.

Very simply, if you're going to stick your neck out as a civilian (ski patrol) and arrest somebody, NYS law essentially requires that you must be RIGHT about everything. If not, you may get your pants sued off.

Peace and Police officers, etc. are protected to a large degree by only needing Reasonable Cause to Believe a particular person committed any offense. They can also make an arrest solely based solely on “information and belief” from a witness for any Felony or Misdemeanor.

A ski patroller physically detaining a person for something they did not witness is potentially risky business. So if you're going to do it, you'd better be sure you have the right person, and it had better be a felony, unless you actually witnessed a lesser actual offense of NYS law. Make a mistake, roll around with the wrong person (if they decide not to cooperate) and you could be in deep doo-doo.

However, as long as you actions were taken in the belief that the subject (i.e. snowboard dude ) did commit some offense, you could not be charged with Kidnapping, the lesser offense of Unlawful Imprisonment, or any other offense (lacking the required intent).
post #47 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by carvemeister View Post
Actually, speaking strictly for NYS, anybody can make an arrest, not just peace officers. It's called a Civilian Arrest - shoplifting is the most common example. A store employee (but actually anyone) can make such an arrest as long as the crime was committed in his presence. Even when police arrive and possibly take the offender to the local precinct it is usually processed as a civilian arrest made by the store employee.

In NYS anybody can make an arrest for ANY offense as long as it is committed in his presence. The only exception to that is if the offense is a Felony in which case you need not have been present at all. The big catch however, is that a civilian has virtually no legal protection if there is any mistake made in the identification of the "suspect" or if what he/she thinks they witnessed lacks any element(s) required to support an offense.

Very simply, if you're going to stick your neck out as a civilian (ski patrol) and arrest somebody, NYS law essentially requires that you must be RIGHT about everything. If not, you may get your pants sued off.

Peace and Police officers, etc. are protected to a large degree by only needing Reasonable Cause to Believe a particular person committed any offense. They can also make an arrest solely based solely on “information and belief” from a witness for any Felony or Misdemeanor.

A ski patroller physically detaining a person for something they did not witness is potentially risky business. So if you're going to do it, you'd better be sure you have the right person, and it had better be a felony, unless you actually witnessed a lesser actual offense of NYS law. Make a mistake, roll around with the wrong person (if they decide not to cooperate) and you could be in deep doo-doo.

However, as long as you actions were taken in the belief that the subject (i.e. snowboard dude ) did commit some offense, you could not be charged with Kidnapping, the lesser offense of Unlawful Imprisonment, or any other offense (lacking the required intent).
Where is Barney Fife when you need him -- Citizen's Arrest !!

I don't think anyone would detain or prosecute anyone unless there was an actual collision or the behavior led to a mishap and the person tried to get away or refused to cooperate. Most likely you would just have your ticket clipped if Ski Patrol wittnessed you behaving recklessly and there was no mishap.

I believe the spirit of this law is meant to hold people criminally accountable, rather than just civilly accountable, if they cause an injury through their own negligence. Right now, there is no criminal satute on the books regarding criminal negligence at ski resorts in UT -- at least there wasn' until now. This makes it easier to prosecute, as without the law you would have to charge someone with negligent assault and that is harder to prove in ski mishaps and collisions. Now, all you have to do is show the skier was out of control, arguments about intent do not come into it like it would with negligent assault.

The law is basically saying , if you want to come to Utah and behave like an out of control loon at a ski resort, you can not only be sued but you can possibily go to jail as well and have a criminal record hanging over you the next time you look for a job.

Regarding the ski patrol not seing the event, by law you are required to give your name and contact information to a patroller or ski area personell n the event of a collision involving injury. If ski patrol takes wittness statements and detains someone based on that, the wittness is liable for damages if it turns out to be a false staterment.

I am all for the law. Skiing is fun but it also is something to engage in responsibily. Unfortunately, many skiers, especially those who visit resorts only once or twice a year, get ther former, but not the latter. You are not on an amsuement park ride, nor should you behave as if you are.

Maybe when skiers and boarders see the sign posted and see the law highlighted in red on their lift ticket, they might think twice before doing something stupid.
post #48 of 55



post #49 of 55




dibs who is making the above stickers Ill take many of them.
post #50 of 55
My question is if an out of control skier/boarder crashes into someone and kills them......Can they be charged with manslaughter or the like in combination with the skiing wreckless charge??

In other words can a skier/boarder kill someone on the slopes and get JUST one year??
post #51 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Will some newbie patroller with five months experience, power tripping, charge me with reckless skiing just because he is afraid to ski as fast on his RX6s as I am skiing on my SGs?
fixed it for ya! although I know of a few long time 'Sarges" out there---in my experience by 5 years, most of that attitude has worn off...if it was there to begin with..
post #52 of 55
Many people, it seems, are wondering how this will work in the real world. The fact of the matter is that it is difficult to prove recklessness.

"Reckless" is a legally defined term. It connotes both a different mental state than mere negligence and a different course of conduct than mere negligence.

Whereas "negligence" (small "n") is typically defined as the failure to exercise due care expected of a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances, "recklesness" is typically defined as "knowingly pursuing a course of conduct with a conscious indifference toward the risk of harm to others."

There are rarely percipient witnesses who can attribute the requisite mental state to a crimintal defendant/tortfeasor to take conduct from negligence to recklessness. Moreover, a defendant usually does not readily admit to pursuing a course of conduct with conscious indifference toward the risk of harm to others. Rather, a jury is instructed to look to the "totality of the circumstances," from which in could infer the requisite mental state necessary to adjudge an individual "reckless."

Just be careful out there.
post #53 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugaree View Post
In other words can a skier/boarder kill someone on the slopes and get JUST one year??
Ask O.J.
post #54 of 55
[quote=telerod15;1016422]The last time I broke my clavicle .


how many times have you done that???
post #55 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




dibs who is making the above stickers Ill take many of them.
My buddy ordered a bunch of the alta stickers. The Park Shitty one is way old school from back in the days when they didn't allow one plankers. It came out the year after they allowed them.
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