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A Teaching Scenario - Page 3

post #61 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
In looking at all the montages and video clips in this thread, I also do not see any excessive ankle flexion past the neutral position of the boot cuff and/or I do not see anyone's knee farther ahead than the toe piece? I do see alot of lateral movement of the knee to the inside of the turn but not leveraged forward over the toe?

But some here believe we must flex the ankles or, be able to flex our boots through our ankle's range of motion to make good turns?? and others don't.
You dont see flexion/extension of those ankles,,,huh?
but that's another topic for another day.


Maybe you are not looking in the right spot...ankles of skier 2 to 3...or 2 to 4?...10 to 12? 17 to 20?
Why is that for another day Bud?

Seems like a good topic. Maybe you should start another thread where we can discuss it.
post #62 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Yeah, I suppose that might be the case, Rick.

I am thinking along the lines of lacking a skill that would stop a skier from employing the GO factor vs having the necessary skills, though maybe not able to perform them very well or at a high level. Isn't the GO factor more a frame of mind that governs how we will use the skills we have, regardless of how refined we are in our development?

Maybe Tog's post wasn't my best choice to quote. I'd have probably been better referring to Si's comments about having made other preliminary discoveries, or SkiRacer55's statement that "you can't do the GO factor without the skills"

What are the skills we must have in order to employ the GO factor?
Chris, we all bring our own personal teaching beliefs/philosophies into these discussions. I'll simply offer you mine, and you can take from it what you find of value, if anything.

I very much agree with you that "the Go Factor" is highly governed by state of mind. The degree to which one is comfortable traveling a particular line down the mountain with as little speed controlling input as possible (read clean arc to arc skiing) is a combination of 3 things:

- one's ability to actually ski that way
- one's confidence in their ability to precisely control line and react to sudden changes in terrain and obstacles while skiing that way.
- one's tolerance for fear and danger.

Observe any public slope and you will see a variety of reasons people are not achieving this outcome. My eyes tell me that the majority suffer from a lack of edge control and balance skill. Their turns start with a big rotary pivot, and there steering is unrefined. I'm not suggesting that an improvement is so far from their grasp, but I AM suggesting it needs to happen before any quality "Go" skiing can take place.

Another group you will see have the courage, but lack the ability to execute. They straight line the hill, with virtually no control of line or ability to quickly react. They are a public danger, and in my opinion display no better "Go" skiing then their more timid, but equally skilled, counterparts.

In both examples, a quality training program of skill development could quickly put them on a track toward more "Go" type skiing. As their edging and balance skills grow, they become more comfortable exploiting their skis and riding the mountain,,, and can abandon muscling their skis and battling the mountain.

In my teaching "Go" skiing is not something that I really focus on and strive for per say,,, it's just what ends up happening. Teach someone to refine their steering and turn shape, which is ground floor work, and suddenly they find themselves skiing faster and smoother. The skill training makes "Go" skiing spring to life. Once comfort with the new resultant speed is acquired, their attention is directed to the new found control and cleanness in their turns, and they're ready both mentally and physically to take the next step. When carving is introduced speed again spikes, and if managed properly by the instructor, a new level of skiing and a higher performance comfort threshold is attained. Baby step by baby step of skill development, skiing just becomes more "Go"

So, Chris, I guess my short version answer is: refine/develop a students edging and balance skills properly, and "Go" skiing will happen automatically. Just tell them to employ the "Go Factor", and their skills or confidence may not be there to support their efforts to comply. The two MUST go hand in hand.
post #63 of 81
Perhaps we should because I do not see definitive evidence in that montage that there is significant ankle flexion but rather lots of other joints flexing and lots of angulation, but not alot of ankle flexion??
post #64 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
In looking at all the montages and video clips in this thread, I also do not see any excessive ankle flexion past the neutral position of the boot cuff and/or I do not see anyone's knee farther ahead than the toe piece? I do see alot of lateral movement of the knee to the inside of the turn but not leveraged forward over the toe?
Take a look at the left knee in the following image:



The following shows the range of ankle flexion used:

post #65 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Take a look at the left knee in the following image:



The following shows the range of ankle flexion used:

Thats a nice montage max. Remember our discussion about hips forwards..... now back to your sceduled program....
post #66 of 81
Tongue pressure is not categorically bad. Most photos you see of racers will at the very least show them at the gate with their inside foot tucked as tightly under them as possible with EXTREME ankle articulation. As they transition they will fundamentally extend that ankle. If they are skiing with the hips forward, then their outside ankle may very well be articulated quite a bit also at or near the gate, though the leg will be extended and the hip forward, rather than bent knee, hip back. In my mind, tongue pressure makes sense during the power phase of the turn, not during transition or init.

But who is saying otherwise?

Rick, about Go Factor.
post #67 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
...
Observe any public slope and you will see a variety of reasons people are not achieving this outcome. My eyes tell me that the majority suffer from a lack of edge control and balance skill. Their turns start with a big rotary pivot, and there steering is unrefined. I'm not suggesting that an improvement is so far from their grasp, but I AM suggesting it needs to happen before any quality "Go" skiing can take place.

Another group you will see have the courage, but lack the ability to execute. They straight line the hill, with virtually no control of line or ability to quickly react. They are a public danger, and in my opinion display no better "Go" skiing then their more timid, but equally skilled, counterparts.

In both examples, a quality training program of skill development could quickly put them on a track toward more "Go" type skiing. As their edging and balance skills grow, they become more comfortable exploiting their skis and riding the mountain,,, and can abandon muscling their skis and battling the mountain.

In my teaching "Go" skiing is not something that I really focus on and strive for per say,,, it's just what ends up happening. Teach someone to refine their steering and turn shape, which is ground floor work, and suddenly they find themselves skiing faster and smoother. The skill training makes "Go" skiing spring to life. Once comfort with the new resultant speed is acquired, their attention is directed to the new found control and cleanness in their turns, and they're ready both mentally and physically to take the next step. When carving is introduced speed again spikes, and if managed properly by the instructor, a new level of skiing and a higher performance comfort threshold is attained. Baby step by baby step of skill development, skiing just becomes more "Go"

So, Chris, I guess my short version answer is: refine/develop a students edging and balance skills properly, and "Go" skiing will happen automatically. Just tell them to employ the "Go Factor", and their skills or confidence may not be there to support their efforts to comply. The two MUST go hand in hand.
Rick, . I tried to state this earlier.

My only change would be to use the term "edging" as you did in the last paragraph in place of steering in the previous ones.
post #68 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Take a look at the left knee in the following image:



The following shows the range of ankle flexion used:

Let us not confuse lateral movement with fore/aft movement. The camera angles trick your eyes into thinking you see more than really exists in many cases. Yes, there is some flexion/extension visible from these two frames, I do not contest this, but I still don't believe it is necessarily mandatory that the available ankle range of motion needs to be available or used to make "good turns". yes sometimes a greater range is used as caused by external forces but "good" turns can and are made without having to use significant ankle motion.

Just stating my opinion and do not care to kick the dead horse. Take it for what it's worth.
post #69 of 81

A return to the...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Cool....any details?


...lost art of steering, demos for photo sequences by Tony Sears, one of my coaches this year, made a huge differences in my skiing...
post #70 of 81
Rick,

Great post, thanks! I totally agree.

I also understand where you (and Si) are coming from now. However, "GO Fast" skiing is not the same thing to me.

The "GO Factor", as I understand it, is internal to the skier and shows itself within the ski/skier system, not in the rate that the ski/skier system proceeds across the snow. It applies to beginner and expert alike, from wedge christie to high performance arc to arc skiing. It is the mind set and intent to move actively/offensively/continuously through turns. Both the timid and the courageous skiers in your example could you use it!

I think it is the active, and proactive, management of the core - continuously - to move in harmony with the skis, in order to maintain/create the alignment necessary to efficiently and effectively steer, edge, pressure the ski throughout the turn(s). In a nutshell, to not be left behind when the skis (and boots) are tipped down the hill, to move actively forward thru the turn, or simply to just: GO!

Thanks for helping me understand how you come at this!

Chris
post #71 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Rick,

Great post, thanks! I totally agree.

I also understand where you (and Si) are coming from now. However, "GO Fast" skiing is not the same thing to me.

The "GO Factor", as I understand it, is internal to the skier and shows itself within the ski/skier system, not in the rate that the ski/skier system proceeds across the snow. It applies to beginner and expert alike, from wedge christie to high performance arc to arc skiing. It is the mind set and intent to move actively/offensively/continuously through turns. Both the timid and the courageous skiers in your example could you use it!

I think it is the active, and proactive, management of the core - continuously - to move in harmony with the skis, in order to maintain/create the alignment necessary to efficiently and effectively steer, edge, pressure the ski throughout the turn(s). In a nutshell, to not be left behind when the skis (and boots) are tipped down the hill, to move actively forward thru the turn, or simply to just: GO!

Thanks for helping me understand how you come at this!

Chris
Your welcome, Chris. Like I said, there are many different teaching philosophies. At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding.
post #72 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Rick,

Great post, thanks! I totally agree.

I also understand where you (and Si) are coming from now. However, "GO Fast" skiing is not the same thing to me.

The "GO Factor", as I understand it, is internal to the skier and shows itself within the ski/skier system, not in the rate that the ski/skier system proceeds across the snow. It applies to beginner and expert alike, from wedge christie to high performance arc to arc skiing. It is the mind set and intent to move actively/offensively/continuously through turns. Both the timid and the courageous skiers in your example could you use it!

I think it is the active, and proactive, management of the core - continuously - to move in harmony with the skis, in order to maintain/create the alignment necessary to efficiently and effectively steer, edge, pressure the ski throughout the turn(s). In a nutshell, to not be left behind when the skis (and boots) are tipped down the hill, to move actively forward thru the turn, or simply to just: GO!

Thanks for helping me understand how you come at this!

Chris
No disagreement here Chris, it's not about going fast. The section I have bolded is what we are talking about. I think what I (in my very limited experience) and Rick (?) are saying is that a sense of and ability to GO is developed through a building of skill and confidence. Skiing is challenging enough that just understanding the concept doesn't make it happen for most, no matter how hard they try. I have seen a few beginner skiers demonstrate the GO concept but in doing so they already demonstrate very "advanced" body management over the skis that essentially puts them in a much higher class. As you might imagine, these skiers develop other skiing skills at a blistering pace. From what I've seen and experienced, skiing skills and the development of the GO concept seem integrally linked to me, as Rick explained.
post #73 of 81
A great test for who has more "GO" in their skiing is to to challenge your partner down a run while they make the most efficient turns they can and you try to match their rate down the slope but making rounder more completed turns than they are. To me this is the essence of a "GO" turn.

I like Chris's description too!
post #74 of 81

Yep, I can see it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
A great test for who has more "GO" in their skiing is to to challenge your partner down a run while they make the most efficient turns they can and you try to match their rate down the slope but making rounder more completed turns than they are. To me this is the essence of a "GO" turn.

I like Chris's description too!
...or, alternatively, you can both just get into some gates, on the clock, of course, you ski your way, your buddy ski his way, and we just see who gets to the bottom quicker...
post #75 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Rick,

....
I think it is the active, and proactive, management of the core - continuously - to move in harmony with the skis, in order to maintain/create the alignment necessary to efficiently and effectively steer, edge, pressure the ski throughout the turn(s). In a nutshell, to not be left behind when the skis (and boots) are tipped down the hill, to move actively forward thru the turn, or simply to just: GO!
.....

Chris
As I stated previously I think this is a great description. I would quibble, however, that core is not an adequate focus for this statement. From my perspective I would actually refer to (fore/aft) management of the pelvis as the primary focus - along with the associated core management. Obviously all joints are ultimately involved with this management but I think these are the key to traveling effectively with the skis. Inevitably, when I go through the exercises that Mosh showed me ( Finding Good Fore/Aft Balance on Skis) with someone (having need in this area) they describe an "aha" moment and then ask why no one has ever showed them this before.
post #76 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post
...or, alternatively, you can both just get into some gates, on the clock, of course, you ski your way, your buddy ski his way, and we just see who gets to the bottom quicker...
This is certainly true but a bit narrowly scoped as most of us do not have quick access to gates or a timed course whenever we feel like it. Perhaps an even better gauge would be the european style carving competitions where the competitors are not only timed but gain bonus points for carving a rounder line!!??

By the way Skiracer55 and Rick, what are your thoughts on frame 4 of the Jimmy Cochran montage above where he appears to be making a cowboy turn? Is he experimenting this day with overcanted boots or is he merely exaggerating leading with the inside ski/knee to release into the turn? It looks pretty funky whatever it is!
post #77 of 81

Yep, some good points...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
This is certainly true but a bit narrowly scoped as most of us do not have quick access to gates or a timed course whenever we feel like it. Perhaps an even better gauge would be the european style carving competitions where the competitors are not only timed but gain bonus points for carving a rounder line!!??

By the way Skiracer55 and Rick, what are your thoughts on frame 4 of the Jimmy Cochran montage above where he appears to be making a cowboy turn? Is he experimenting this day with overcanted boots or is he merely exaggerating leading with the inside ski/knee to release into the turn? It looks pretty funky whatever it is!

...I just read an article about the Euro carving competitions, and I have to say, it is some really exciting stuff, and a great new direction in high end skiing. I hope it prospers and becomes a FIS event...I would definitely love to see it as the demo sport in the next Olympics.

Re Jimmy Cochran at Keystone, I gotta say I think he's not skiing very well at all here. He hasn't had a great year, and it looks to me in this sequence as if his fundamentals are way off. His upper body looks very tense and static. In frame 4, he's definitely back...see Ron LeMaster's latest article in ski racing about contemporary slalom technique and what happens when you get back at the wrong time. This is a good (bad) example of that. I think the exaggerated lead with the inside knee is a (failed) attempt to make up for the two above mentioned problems (I'm back, I'm stiff, I'm inside, but I have to get into the next turn now...lemme crank the inside ski into the turn and see if that works...)...but it ain't working. When you get this type of thing going on, it's all catch up, it's all linked recoveries, and that doesn't win races these days. What this causes, which you can see in Frame 5, is a diverge (another thread that I do not want to bring back from the dead tonight...), from which he can only recover by following the skis in Frame 6...not a good thing, because it flattens the skis, causes the tails to slide, and makes it hard to be quick into the transition.

Don't get me wrong...Jimmy is a great skier, and I fully expect he's gonna win a World Cup race one of these days...but not by doing this stuff. My guess is he's probably still fast in this run, because he's a great athlete, as quick and strong as a bull, but this is not gonna get him ahead of the best guys in the world, at their best...
post #78 of 81
Si, I don't know if it changes your quibble or not, but I think my use of the word core probably should have been replaced with center of mass. Because of discussions with coaches I have worked with I equate the two, however, I also know our core has specific meaning to others.
post #79 of 81
A question about 'GO'...
Is it more about 'letting go' than actively 'going'?

In my world (dancing) we have to put energy into a movement and then release our muscles to allow our body to continue the movement. There's still a lot of balance activity and of course the energy was carefully controlled by the intent of the movement (to move to the next balance point).

Having felt some of this (occasionally) in short radius turns where there's a sense of the feet doing their own thing to form the figure-8 shape (IIRC).

The reason I ask is that I understand that people (me!) have a tendency to control each element of their movement rather than providing timed inputs and allowing the body (and feet) to move.
post #80 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbt View Post
A question about 'GO'...
Is it more about 'letting go' than actively 'going'?

The answer to any question in skiing is "It depends"

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbt View Post
The reason I ask is that I understand that people (me!) have a tendency to control each element of their movement rather than providing timed inputs and allowing the body (and feet) to move.
And that is the reason I said (on the first page)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W View Post
You are correct, it isn't giving him anything to do with his skis. It is, on the other hand, giving him something to do with his body, and more to the point his head.

In my experience that is more often a problem with the head thinking through all that should be done, and what could happen, rather then letting his body ski. That being the case giving a focus that calls for LETTING the ski work rather then MAKING the ski work seems the fastest way to achieve the goal
In the limited time available in any one days worth of teaching a decision needs to be made on what route to go. It is sometimes easier to make progress in a limited time by asking people to do less, and let them find their own "GO". All good teaching starts from getting people to change how they think, so all of the approaches in this thread can work- or not work- depending on the student, so I've enjoyed seeing other ways of looking at the question.
post #81 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbt View Post
A question about 'GO'...
Is it more about 'letting go' than actively 'going'?

In my world (dancing) we have to put energy into a movement and then release our muscles to allow our body to continue the movement. There's still a lot of balance activity and of course the energy was carefully controlled by the intent of the movement (to move to the next balance point).

Having felt some of this (occasionally) in short radius turns where there's a sense of the feet doing their own thing to form the figure-8 shape (IIRC).

The reason I ask is that I understand that people (me!) have a tendency to control each element of their movement rather than providing timed inputs and allowing the body (and feet) to move.
I like the way you explained this lbt. There is certainly a time to tense or contract the turning muscles and a time to relax and allow. The timing, intensity, duration of the contractions could be a whole other thread, but we shouldn't overlook the neccesity of releasing that tension and allowing certain movements at the appropriate moment in our turns.

This idea goes back to a thread about "twist n tip" that was perhaps misunderstood and poorly communicated on my part where the essence of the thread was about timing of the release of tension in relation to the edge angle and proximity in the turn transitions. A typical anticipation release type turn will allow the skis to pivot toward the fall line once the edge is released, whereas my "twist n tip" concept would maintain muscular tension a bit longer in the edge change so that the release does not occur until the new inside edge is engaged thus eliminating the pivoting and encouraging a more carved entry into the turns.
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