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Metal laminate skis and moguls

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
My current skis are metal laminate. They are great for the majority of Eastern conditions. I ski them in moguls frequently but was recently warned by a local ski shop that they could develop "metal memory" related to the significant bending of the skis that occurs while skiing moguls. I was told the ski could be bent causing permanent loss of camber. Is this a legitimate concern?
post #2 of 22
True, but if you are careful and light you can ski in bumps for years with no problems.
post #3 of 22
I have the same concern... see my recent post here:

Clicky

Long time ago I bent a metal pair in the moguls, on the first day I owned them. People say recent skis are better designed, though, and can take more abuse.

Just hate having to worry about it, or treat the skis with kid gloves in the moguls. My old skis, 200cm K2 712, competition slalom, foam core, are 25 years old and I've bashed them all sorts of mogul fields with no ill effect or loss of camber.

I have a half a mind to just pound my new skis through the moguls hard to see if they'll break/bend while the warranty is still in effective. I now know that "all-mountain" may mean "everything-except-for-moguls."
post #4 of 22
bent skis are usually NOT warrantied, in my experience. That's user fault, not factory defect.
post #5 of 22
I have a pair of 2007 K2 Recons and maybe it is just me, but they seem to have lost a little bit of camber after just 30 days of skiing. Not sure if the technology keeps them from losing it as fast, but I am a little concerned.
post #6 of 22
Skis should not ever bend... they are designed to flex in order to work. If you bend them with regular skiing, that's the skis fault. Then again, why would you purposely take metal laminate ski into deep bump ruts in the first place? Non-metal skis can (and will) bend too!
post #7 of 22
I bent a metal ski the first day out and the shop took them back with no questions asked.

Volkl specifically bills the Tigershark as an "versatile all mountain expert ski" to "attack the whole mountain" - that's exactly what I bought them for. I also assume that definition implies that I will come across some mogul fields as I sample every expert slope on a whole mountain.

If they can't handle the intended purpose they were marketed for, I do think that should be a warranty issue. (And, as mentioned above, my previous 200cm slalom racing skis have bashed moguls for the better part of 20 years, and are still in fine shape.)
post #8 of 22
How can you tell if the metal in skis is actually bent? Should I just take them to a shop?
post #9 of 22
Place the skis base to base.

Hold them between the bindings and squeeze them together.

The bases should touch all along the ski (no daylight) up to the contact point at tip and tail. If the tips or tails are not touching one (or both) are probably bent.
post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by reppans View Post
I bent a metal ski the first day out and the shop took them back with no questions asked.

Volkl specifically bills the Tigershark as an "versatile all mountain expert ski" to "attack the whole mountain" - that's exactly what I bought them for. I also assume that definition implies that I will come across some mogul fields as I sample every expert slope on a whole mountain.

If they can't handle the intended purpose they were marketed for, I do think that should be a warranty issue. (And, as mentioned above, my previous 200cm slalom racing skis have bashed moguls for the better part of 20 years, and are still in fine shape.)
Jeep markets their products as all terrain vehicles, if you drive one into a tree it will not be warranteed.

Samurai is correct, bent skis are not covered as a 'manufacture's defect'. Sometimes the manufacturer will replace a bent ski, this is to maintain good-will with the customer (and more importantly) the shop. I would suggest not confusing 'replacing to maintain good-will' with 'warranty I am ENTITLED to'. Some manufacturer's play hard ball, others don't.
post #11 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Jeep markets their products as all terrain vehicles, if you drive one into a tree it will not be warranteed.

Samurai is correct, bent skis are not covered as a 'manufacture's defect'. Sometimes the manufacturer will replace a bent ski, this is to maintain good-will with the customer (and more importantly) the shop. I would suggest not confusing 'replacing to maintain good-will' with 'warranty I am ENTITLED to'. Some manufacturer's play hard ball, others don't.

Whiteroom: I recently was in your shop when were in Stowe. Nice shop. I wanted to demo the Supershape Magnums but it we were leaving the next day. You are the perfect person to ask this question of: What ski would you recommend to ski trails such as Goat or Starr? Being your home turf you understand the steepness of these trails, the tightness of the moguls and the potential for ice.

During our visit I skied these trails with my Elan Ripsticks and had no problems afterwards with the skis. They are metal laminate skis and I understand the risks of deforming the metal.

It is a catch 22: because it helps on these trails to have the superior edgehold of a metal laminate ski ( Imagine falling at the top of Starr) but you also need a somewhat flexible ski to negotiate the steep tight moguls on these trails.

Thanks in advance.
post #12 of 22
It's not exactly easy to bend a ski, I'm pretty big, I ski pretty fast and I ski on mostly metal laminate skis. I don't bend them very often, the two that I have bent could be directly related to falls that sent a ski cartwheeling down the hill, end over end. I really wouldn't worry about it.

I really like the feel of Head's skis. I ski the Head iM88 as an all around ski, I ski blizzard Argos' as a soft snow ski and I ski a Scott P4 (or DPS Lotus 120's) as a powder ski. If I was looking for a ski to maximize my enjoyment of goat and Starr, I'd probably choose the Supershape magnum... or maybe , for me, the iM82 because they make 'em a bit longer (I'm big).
post #13 of 22
Thread Starter 
Whiteroom: Thanks for your input.
post #14 of 22
I have bent several metal alminate skis in the past. Mostly longer skis and mostly before I was a good as I currently am. In every case I just kept skiing the boards and they were ok off piste, but a little funny on the groomers. Now with shorter skis I really don't worry about it. I don't think it's the skis fault if you stuff them hard and they bend. I also suspect most people wouldn't know the differnce.
post #15 of 22
I've bent probably eight or ten pair over the years. More than I've broken...I think I've only straight up broken four or five. I don't recall bending any skis without metal in them without also delaminating/breaking them. You have to do something pretty extreme to bend a ski without metal in it that was built well.

I've seen entire demo fleets of certain models get bent with no exceptions. You can bet the manufacturer(s) were asked to cover that.

A bent ski may be a manufacturer defect, or it may not be. Very difficult to tell unless you are the guy in the warranty department watching the rates of returns.

Even a slightly bent ski is immediately obvious and frustrating on hard snow. I find it hard to believe most people wouldn't know the difference. Maybe they'd know something was wrong but not have the experience to know what it is. More than once I've been at demos and noticed within a couple turns that the boards I was on were bent.
post #16 of 22
Back in the day, Rossignol had a wonderful smooth GS ski, the Roc 550. It had more metal than other skis of the time, and sure enough, it was good for about two runs down a true bump run.
post #17 of 22
If your worried about bending a ski with metal shouldn't you be worried about breaking a ski without metal?
post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski=free View Post
If your worried about bending a ski with metal shouldn't you be worried about breaking a ski without metal?
Ever ski Volants? They brake left and right... and are made with stainless steel!
post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski=free View Post
If your worried about bending a ski with metal shouldn't you be worried about breaking a ski without metal?
No.

Both wood and metal skis will bend to extreme shapes when placed in big bumps. The difference is that the metal ones won't go back to straight. that's all.
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Jeep markets their products as all terrain vehicles, if you drive one into a tree it will not be warranteed..
Driving a Jeep into a tree would not be within its intended purpose, I assume. However, if you want to use this analogy, I think blowing a shock absorber out (eg, blow a valve in the shock where the fluid leaks out) might be good one. You would still be able to drive to the dealer, with no other physical damage to the vehicle, and only argue about how the vehicle was driven.

I just have an issue a company that markets a particular ski as an "all mountain expert ski" able to "attack the whole mountain" and then be unwilling to back-up this ski when/if the user bends the ski on a run down a trail like Starr, for example. I have skied Starr many, many times, and other trails like it, and have only once damaged/bent a ski in my lifetime - they were metal skis, and on the first day of ownership. At the time, I had no idea this was an issue, and certainly the ski came with no warning/disclaimer "Do not use in moguls."

That was 25 years ago, and I have long forgotten about it when I bought the Tigersharks 2 wks ago and was only recently reminded of the metal issue by coming across a similar thread such as this one. I hope technology has advanced so that it is unlikely that I would ever bend these skis, but this whole metal thing has me worried again.
post #21 of 22
I really wouldn't worry about it.
post #22 of 22
Hmm... I've skied many skis with varying amount of metal in them in all kinds of bumps (soft to hard, small to big) and I've yet to bend one. Mind you I'm only 135 lbs so I'm not going to pressure a ski like a 200 lb'er will. Ditto for core shots & edge damage, if you weigh a lot, you're gonna be harder on your skis than some light weight.
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