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Boots too big - more then 75% of us? - Page 3

post #61 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
My boots:

remove boot from box.
Take paper out of toe box.
Remove stock 'footbed'.
Insert Superfeet cork footbed.
Ski.
Take out the paper??............................Sissy!!

SJ
post #62 of 126
A guy came into the shop once with some boots he'd bought from us a couple years back. He said they used to fit fine, but now the right one was really tight in the toes. I took out the liner, removed the dead mummified mouse, put the liner back in the shell and sent him on his way.
post #63 of 126
sure you want to fit people in the "right" size boots, but bottom line, if they will not listen, your job is to sell things, so a few times a year, I tell them that I don't think that this fit will work for them in the long term. The boots will be OK to start with, but become too big later, and that I will not take the boots back as I tried to tell you they where too big.

That will usually scare them into the right size, or I have my ass covered later. Either way it works.
post #64 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
A guy came into the shop once with some boots he'd bought from us a couple years back. He said they used to fit fine, but now the right one was really tight in the toes. I took out the liner, removed the dead mummified mouse, put the liner back in the shell and sent him on his way.
Got that beat (well tied anyway)

BITD I was managing one of the shops in the base area @ Squawwwywood and a guy came in late in the day saying that his boots had been killing him all day. Sure enough, his feet must have hurt b/c he could barely walk into the store............They were on the wrong feet.

SJ
post #65 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post
Got that beat (well tied anyway)

BITD I was managing one of the shops in the base area @ Squawwwywood and a guy came in late in the day saying that his boots had been killing him all day. Sure enough, his feet must have hurt b/c he could barely walk into the store............They were on the wrong feet.

SJ

Oh yeah? Well....

(also BITD) A lady came into Big Sky Sports around noon complaining that her rental boots were killing her feet. Not only did she have the boots on the wrong feet - they weren't even the boots she had checked out with about three hours earlier!

"Fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies..."
post #66 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
"Fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies..."
Good pick up.

SJ
post #67 of 126
This is a problem the boot manufacturers should do more to solve. The average skiier does not expect boot buying to be a multi-hour, multi-tripprocess. As an outsider, let me make a few uneducated observations.
First - there are materials that would make good boot liners that would not pack out. Boots in ski shops cost $300 - $500. Buying a boot that will remain true to size as it's used is not too much for a customer to expect. Same goes for shell material that are not as temperature sensitive as most are today.
Two - more information on sizing would help consumers make good decisions. Why should the box say one thing and the boot fitter tell you something else? My wife bought new boots last year. She has an average size foot. The slesman (a young man who I would not consider a boot fitter) at a high end shop in Vail tried to convince her that she should buy a boot that was clearly marked on the box a shoe size smaller than she wears for tennis or street shoes. She has cold feet and there was no way the salesman could convice her she needed a smaller shell size. She has skied for 40 years. I doubt if she's ever had a pair of boots that fit properly. It is counterintuitive to try to sell boots marked 6.5 to an adult who knows they wear a 7.5 shoe.
If we'd known SJ for years and had a good experience in his shop in the past he might convince her but a 20 something clerk is not going to change the mind of a lady twice his age that he knows more about sizing than the company that made the boots and printed the size on the box, even if he is right.
Third - Something on the boot box should clearaly communicate the boot shell width or volume.
Last - When you walk two blocks to catch a bus that then drops you off three blocks from the lift you're very concerned about how the boot feels when you walk in it. Try to remeber how many times you rented boots when you first started skiing and rubbed a blister on your foot before you ever got to the first chair lift. You guys who wear your boots dozens of times a year and probably wear hiking boots at times too have tough feet and legs. You underestimate how uncomfortable ski boots are for many folks that are just starting out or who seldom ski more than three days in a row. I think it's a big reason why beginners quit skiing.
post #68 of 126
My useless local shop actually got me into a DECENT shell fit from the go. I measure a mondo 30 on one foot and 29.5 on the other and ended up in a 29/29.5 shell. I had about 11/16ths of room in the back and the boots weren't bad from the start(Krypton Cross). I skied them 10 days or so that 1st season and they were a definite improvement from the Langes I was in previously.

Early the following season I had some footbeds made(unweighted) and some cuff alignment work done at Snowbird. I didn't really feel any difference with the $200 footbeds, but the cuff alignment seemed to help as I now felt like I was only slightly on both inside edges(vice heavily). Went back to the Snowbird shop the next season to see if we could get the cuff to align to where when I felt centered and balanced on that my skis were truly running flat. After a couple more tries at the cuff alignment nothing changed and I was still riding my inside edges on both skis. I gave up on this shop and they had the gall to try and charge me for the alignment until I meagerly protested that they had done the initial work the previous season.

Then last season I went to a shop in Breckenridge and finally got it right. I'm in the same boot, but in a 28/28.5 shell using a 29/29.5 liner. My alignment is spot on and I can wear the boots all day without unbuckling.

I just got a new spare set of liners and already had spare tongue/buckles. Hopefully I'm good for the next 3 or 4 seasons with boots and can concentrate on why my technique sucks.
post #69 of 126
My BITD story: somebody who accidentally switched liners side to side in their boots and wondered why they felt so bad all of a sudden....

Jim, I am curious about the 29 liner in a 28 shell -- what did that do for you?
post #70 of 126
[quote=skier219;
Jim, I am curious about the 29 liner in a 28 shell -- what did that do for you?[/quote]


The 28/28.5 liner was just too short and with some punching and grinding the shell conforms with the 29/29.5 liner almost perfectly with my foot.

I have a high degree of confidence with these boots and never look at them as the culprit when my skiing isn't as good as I would like it to be.
post #71 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
In my opinion SMJ has absolutely no beef with this shop and is spouting bad press with no basis. He went into the restaurant and ordered the chef's special ...and he got it just the way the chef likes it! What's the problem?
I'm a bit boggled why you're hammering me Chris. I have specifically NOT mentioned the shop so I don't think I'm "spouting bad press." I have accepted partial responsibility for the fit problem. I have moved on, I bought new boots, have dropped any communication or asking for compensation from the original fitter, but felt it would be helpful to raise the topic on epic for others who may get too big boots.

However if you "ordered the chef's special" and it had hairs placed in it (from the news recently) would you say it was your fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
He claims he asked for a performance fit, but nowhere does he define what that is. As far as we know, the bootfitter feels a "more than a inch" (is that 1.0001 inches or 3 inches - more/less?) behind the heel in a shell fit IS a "performance fit." That's what he asked for and what he got! And, it doesn't matter what any of us think a "performance fit" is, it doesn't even matter what SMJ thinks a "performance fit" is, it only matters what that bootfitter feels a "performance fit" is ...and that is apparently something "more than an inch" behind the heel during a shell fit..

Frankly, this statement boggles me:
Frankly, this statement boggles me:


Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Come on! This is a Ski Pro looking for an upgrade in performance. Couldn't be troubled to look down during the shell fit? Wasn't interested in comparing to the fit in the old boots for a reference point? ...after a history of frustrating boot issues...

I was negligent being a "ski pro" not to also be a bootfitiing expert and check this certified and trained bootfitter's shell fit?

I just don't get it.
post #72 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
Jim, I am curious about the 29 liner in a 28 shell -- what did that do for you?
I've seen the same. Punching out the boot won't give you toe room if the liners are too small. My wife has some Scarpas which should fit acording to the shell, but the stock liners mash her toes. We crammed in a much bigger liner from the same model boot and cured it.
post #73 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post
...a guy came in late in the day saying that his boots had been killing him all day. Sure enough, his feet must have hurt b/c he could barely walk into the store............They were on the wrong feet.
SJ
A woman from Australia joined up with our gang of yahoos when I was in Whistler. She came home from her first day reluctant to say how it was. The instructor pointed out the fact that her boots were on the wrong feet and everyone laughed. We spent the night packing them full of anything we could get our hands on to make them fit. She never wore shoes growing up so she had feet like an Oranatang(sp).

We got them to work for the most part, but every other night we worked on moving the stuffing around after it shifted. It was quite a 'feet' since they didn't even hurt her on the wrong foot. And she learned how to ski pretty well in those boots.
post #74 of 126
Thread Starter 
I once took my boots off at the mountain, pulled the liners out for some reason I can't recall, then put them back in. Took a run and it was excruciatingly painful. Turns out I put the liners back in the wrong boots. "That's what the L means on the bottom!" I later realized.
post #75 of 126
All of these stories prove my point about the lack of customer focus by the boot manufatureres. If Apple or Honda made ski boots would customers have a problem understanding which foot to put into which boot?
post #76 of 126
Foot conditioning to the boot and the sport.

How many of us buy boots 30, 40, 50 days into the season?
post #77 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
My question exactly. Could the shells expand? (I don't think so.) Maybe my feet shrunk?!!!!

No names mentioned, but two fitters worked on me, both seemed (and are) very knowledgeable. They spent a lot of time on me, I got great service. I'm very perplexed - but from what I've heard from other skiers, 26/26.5 are big for a person with 8.5 street shoes.
Did they initially do a shell fit? If not, then whatever their reputation is, I would get out of that shop as quick as possible. Some bootfitters use a wooden dowel: 1/4 inch on the small end, 1/2 inch on the large end. This is a good target range for a performance fit (very generalized, but somewhat accurate nonetheless). I typically just shove my fingers behind the customer's smelly feet: roughly 1 finger or less for a high-end fit, 2 fingers for a reasonable performance fit, 3 fingers for a rental fit. It is a good starting point at least, although obviously more to it than that. And, the S9 liner can be very deceiving: it is thick, and feels very tight. Great shell, but that liner is overbuilt, and I know at least a couple of people with that boot who have had problems with the liner (they used their old liners). My Raptor 120 liner is overbuilt as well, so I am trying to get a 130/150 liner which is thinner and a better fit for me.

I am in an 8.5 street shoe, and am in a snug 25 shell (291mm sole, thick plastic). Most recreational 25 shells are pretty sloppy on me: I would rather go 24 in many boots and have it stretched a few mm.
post #78 of 126
Beware the half size "situation"!

I am sure most of us know that boot shells are produced in full sizes, and the half sizes are synth-a-sized by the use of thicker liners. So.... if you have purchased the "big shell" with the "filler liner"to meet your foot size requirements, you may rest assured that the boot will pack out in a most miserable fashion after some period of ski days.

If you are lucky to match the boot makers last to your foot, and get the "thin liner", so much the better. If not, check another makers boot. perhaps the shell/liner combination will allow the closer fit. Also, The numerical boot size means nothing! a 26.5 and a 27.5 from different makers could provide a very similar fit.

I spent too much time in worry over this aspect when mail-ordering my last pair of boots. Three happy seasons later (patrol duty), I just reheated the intuition liners to try to restore some lost volumn. Yes, lucky I guess as the previous boots took no less than 5 return visits to the fitter. (part of the initial purchase and fit)

And a question.

Do feet really shrink late in the afternoon of a long day of hard skiing? If not, why does the boot fit feel sloppy and the skis just a bit out of control. Discount the notion of tired legs ;-)

All for fun

CalG
post #79 of 126
CalG, I think it's even more complicated than that -- some models use different footbeds to differentiate the X.0 and X.5 size, some use different liners, some do both. I am sure there are even more variations I don't know about.

I shell fit myself into a 28.0/28.5 Salomon X-wave 9 and spent a lot of time examining the two sizes. They both had the same stock footbed, and both liners were the same except for more padding above the forefoot in the 28.0. There really wasn't any difference in fit, but the 28.0 felt smoother when I buckled it down, I assume because that extra padding spread out above the foot. So I went with the 28.0. But other than that padding, the two bootsizes were identical. I pretty much see no reason why they bothered producing the two sizes, given the minor difference. No matter what, they both pack out to the shell in the end.
post #80 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveturner View Post
All of these stories prove my point about the lack of customer focus by the boot manufatureres. If Apple or Honda made ski boots would customers have a problem understanding which foot to put into which boot?
I don't know if it's lack of customer focus, but ski and boot manufacturers are definitely not working to the level of design that companies like Apple and Honda are known for. Very few companies have that capability for whatever reason.
post #81 of 126
Oh, come on.

Apple has how many models of product driven by how many sales per?

Honda has how many models of product driven by how many sales per?
post #82 of 126
I have a size 9 foot in a 26.5 Nordica Agressor 130 with Zipfit World Cup liners. I've seen other people on this board with a 9 foot crammed into a 25.5 or smaller shell. I cannot imagine this as I had to have my boots toe box in the front and 6th toe ground to get enough room. I have a little more than two fingers at the heel. The liners have finally set into the shell and I really do not have much room from my toes to the front of the boot with the liner in the boot.. I think the Zipfit is taking up some of the extra space. Whatever the reason the boot/liners feel great. I hardly have to buckle the boot to get great support and comfort and I'm on the first hasp on all the buckles. This might be another solution for those who might have a little bigger shell. I expect these boots and liners to be around for a long time. By the way Zipfit has great service if required. Sven helped me with a mod to my instep which has put the finishing touch on a great product.

Karl
post #83 of 126
I agree with several of the posters that the ski boot industry should do a lot more to solve the fit problems, which do not seem to be much better that when the original Langes were introduced about forty years ago. Liners should not "pack out". Boot manufactures should divert some of the hundreds of thousands of euros they spend every couple of years on new shell molds to solving this problem. Few skiers will tolerate 10-15 days of skiing in pain until their boots "pack out" and multiple trips back to the fitter to remove "hot spots". Until that happens they will ski with boots that are "too big" and not bother about it. Some people posting on this site need a return to Reality. 99% of skiers do not need and do not want the "macho fit". My boots are "too big" but it didn't bother me at all when I skied Y-Chute and Horseshoe Bowl last week at Breckenridge, the latter non-stop. Skiing should be fun, not a form of torture spun off from the CIA.
post #84 of 126
one problem I see is that boot foam/material needs to mold and shape to your foot (well mainly the heel) Only way that is done is thru the material of the liner stretching to the foots shape. It is very hard to all material to the exact shape of the foot/heel

This can/has been done with foam liners, but they are costly, and take time, and are colder then a normal liner. or with air (nordica rear entry, pump up liner)

As for what is tight and what is loose and what is torture, everyone is different. A few years ago I fit 2 ladies in the exact same boot one night. It was about the same shell fit on them (10-15mm) and they had similar abilitys, number of days on the hill a year, ankle ROM etc.
Both came back the next day irate. One said that her boots are way too small, and this will never work, I ruined her day, etc. Gave her the next size up in the same boot and she was happy. Other lady came back too. Her issue was her boots are WAY too big, heel moves all over the place, toes slipping to the font of the boot and she MUST have the next size down. Again I gave her that size and she too was happy.
post #85 of 126
My boots definitely get looser during the ski day. Usually it is within my range of adjustment, but sometimes I feel a pronounced side-to-side sloppiness. If I try to put do my boots up with the ending settings the next morning, they are way too tight.

I always figured my feet were shrinking because of cold. But now that I think about it, that is unproven.

Maybe there is some short-term, reversible compression of the liner that springs back overnight. Or maybe it has something to do with moisture -- my boots are usually damp (or worse) by the end of the day.

Or maybe my socks pack down when wet.
post #86 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by klm View Post
I have a size 9 foot in a 26.5 Nordica Agressor 130 with Zipfit World Cup liners. I've seen other people on this board with a 9 foot crammed into a 25.5 or smaller shell. I cannot imagine this as I had to have my boots toe box in the front and 6th toe ground to get enough room. I have a little more than two fingers at the heel. The liners have finally set into the shell and I really do not have much room from my toes to the front of the boot with the liner in the boot...

Karl
Perhaps you cannot imagine this as well....

I wear a 10.5 in my office shoes (Allen Edmonds), and an 11 in running shoes (Asics DST), but my Nordica Speedmachines boots and Nordica Beast boots are both 26.

Both Nordicas have a shell length of 305mm and with a shell fit that allow only 1 finger. Yes they are tight so I have to ski two good runs in pain (buckles loose while in lift) before I start to feel comfortable with my ski boots. Recently, I went back to Greg in Heino's because my Speedmachines were packing out and I could feel my toes jamming the front. He added a heel raise and some padding in front to pull my ankles back. Boots feel good again. My Beasts use the intuition liners and I love those better than my speedmachines.

p.s. Years ago my boots were Salomon Evolutions in 28.5.
post #87 of 126
I'm finally in small-enough boots. Size 8 street, and I use 24.5 Nordica Beast 12 with Raichle Thermoflex liner (they're not thin) and an A-line posted footbed.
post #88 of 126

I Feel Your Pain!!

I wear a 7.5 street shoe US. and I do the "unthinkable". I buy boots over the internet because I live 3.5 hours away from any skiing at all. I hadn't skied on over 10 years and dug out my boot bag two years ago to discover that my 20 year old Nordicas had cracked in storage. It took many years of home made foot beds and duct tape here and there to get them fitting "just right". Last year I bought a pair of size 25 Langes that were also at least 10 years old (but never used). They were extremely tight. I didn't get out last year though. My toes touched the front, just barely. Still, being unemployed with small kids I kept them until I had a good job and was "back on my feet". Next, I picked ou a pair of Rossignol size 25.5 only to discover that the sole legnth was actually a little shorter when checking my bindings, but the inside footbed was a bit longer. Still, I could BARELY wiggle my feet into them, and they HURT SOOO bad:. I would never in a million years put the other one on in a store. But being on an extremely tight budget I fought thru it and decided to devote a few hours each weekend last summer to "break them in". My wife thought I was nuts walking around the house in July wearing ski boots, but that was really the best time to do it (98* North Carolina summer). :I did finally get back to skiing again this season. Anyway, they still hurt a bit the first two times out for bout the first hour. I guess that's the best you can get for $40.00. I did bring the Langes along on the first trip to the mountains just in case- LOL. Now, I look at all the trouble folks still have that pay $400.00 and spend 4 trips to the shop. Finally, my new boots are starting to work just a bit of slop and get easier to put on. The next "step" will be to add some better foot beds. I have high arches, Now that they are getting broken in I can probably add some insoles to accomidate that and still be able to get them on my feet in cold weather: . Moral of the story is that of they hurt like he-double toothpicks in the store they might be perfect.
post #89 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by crudmeister View Post
I agree with several of the posters that the ski boot industry should do a lot more to solve the fit problems, which do not seem to be much better that when the original Langes were introduced about forty years ago. Liners should not "pack out". Boot manufactures should divert some of the hundreds of thousands of euros they spend every couple of years on new shell molds to solving this problem. Few skiers will tolerate 10-15 days of skiing in pain until their boots "pack out" and multiple trips back to the fitter to remove "hot spots". Until that happens they will ski with boots that are "too big" and not bother about it. Some people posting on this site need a return to Reality. 99% of skiers do not need and do not want the "macho fit". My boots are "too big" but it didn't bother me at all when I skied Y-Chute and Horseshoe Bowl last week at Breckenridge, the latter non-stop. Skiing should be fun, not a form of torture spun off from the CIA.
Not sure if I would completely agree with that one. The most miserable boots (comfort wise) that I've ever owned were my Lange Comps when I was 9 or 10 years old. (40 years ago) The pain and suffering I put up with to have those things... "yellow plastic bags" for liners around my feet that trapped moisture and were so rigid that I had to resort to mole skin to stop getting major blisters on my shins and feet. Nothing like them since. But I LOVED them!

If you ski a large number of days every season, your feet become acclimated to a different reality than if you ski a few days. At the start of every season, I play with buckle settings that were fine at the end-of-season the year before. It's a bit painful at times - mostly from cramping as my feet re-acclimate. But they are very snug, too. After a few weeks, the buckles start spinning back to end-of-season spots, and there they stay for the remainder of the season.

I pull my liners every night just to get them fully dry for the next day. As they dry, they "fluff" out a bit as air replaces water molecules. The memory of the foam changes slightly so that when I put the liners back in they are once again "snug" in the morning due to foam change and orientation of the liner in the boot. The toe box is neoprene and my heel basically rides against the flat seam at the back of the liner - the foam has been pushed out of that area (the little there was). They're a bit uncomfortable until I can take a first run, but not painful (for me). First run, a couple of forced flexes and high-edge turns and my heel pushes back, things realign, and I'm good to go for the day. I'm one who pops the instep buckle after every run to release pressure and keep the liner from packing down on the top of my foot. Seems to work for me, as I rarely have any undesirable heel shift.

Thinking that a 10-15 day/year skier will live out his/her whole season like my first few days is unrealistic - I probably wouldn't if that was all I skied. Proper sizing/fitting relies on many things, not just the obvious.
post #90 of 126
Here's a question for the pros.
Does a short boot enhance performance or are we tolerating toe problems and stretcing the toe area just to get a tighter fit everywhere else? Aren't most issues with tight boots toe problems? My 2 cents; I think my boots could be a little longer while keeping every other dimension the same without hurting their performance.
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