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video of eski, holiday... - Page 3

post #61 of 80

Pedal Hop Turn Video?

Originally Posted by Holiday View Post
And to ski that slowly w/ control, i'd use a pedal hop turn. I believe Eski would choose the same turn.
Holiday - Thanks for sharing the video of yourself & Eski on a steep couloir. It is great to see high level skiing on steep terrain. It looks like you folks were having fun.

If you get the chance, I would enjoy seeing a video of yourself & Eski skiing with the pedal hop turn & pedal hop carve & pedal carve in a steep couloir.
post #62 of 80
Hoiday posted: Eric says he doesn’t focus on active leg steering at all in this quite short turn, but focuses on a solid upper body, pole and edge change.

If your upper body is countered facing down the fall line and you release the edge what happens? Doesn't it do something very naturally with no effort?

post #63 of 80
Thank you, Bob. That's very clear to me.

To MileB: on tougher terrains, I cannot make turns tight enough to be able to control speed. I steer to help make tighter turns. I skid a little before entering the turn to slow down.

Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
That's a great question, jk.

Hopefully Rick will give you an answer himself, but I'll chime in with my own opinion.

I think your experience is pretty typical of most "mortal" skiers. The Wade/Eric video shows it to some degree. As the pitch steepens, the bumps deepen, the snow worsens, and the need for speed control increases, most skiers become somewhat more "active" in their steering. It occurs to greater or lesser degree depending on the terrain and the conditions and the skills of the skier.

Despite what you may have often read in these pages, a degree of active steering is not a bad thing. There are situations where it might be what saves your life. Knowing how to do it is - in my opinion - a very important skill to have as you seek out progressively more difficult terrain.

I think you're absolutely right to have a goal of doing less "active" steering and more passive. It's a path that I think most of us strive for. But I wouldn't throw out that active steering skill in an arbitrary attempt to do it the "right" way all the time.

Personally, I think "active steering" is a little like red wine - in moderation, it's pretty good for us but when abused it's a bad thing.
post #64 of 80
Originally Posted by SkierScott View Post
It looks like you folks were having fun.
I agree and I enjoyed the video...just wish someone would have said "woohoo" as they were skiing!
post #65 of 80
And if you assist in the unwinding and aren't noticing it does it mean it is not happening?
post #66 of 80
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
And if you assist in the unwinding and aren't noticing it does it mean it is not happening?
Thanks Big E

I dont think anyone says it isn't happening. But come on in those turns is he assisting or is it large muscle groups realigning the body? ISn't this the crux of the matter. As Eski says he's not thinking about it. It happens as a result of other things such as the counter and the release, hence his focus is on tipping and pole planting. This begs the question, why then has PSIA since centerline had a focus on teaching turning the feet? Why with the new skis did they not reevaluate what would be of benefit to begining students on the new gear. Because too many people had too much invested in their ideas to allow them to be changed. Politics pure and simple. Same thing went down with the stance issue. One of the golden boys incorrectly analysed some WC photos on the new gear and it's taken them up until the last year to back pedal from that!

PSIA taught decades of skiers to make linked skids with it's emphasis on rotary movements. Not only that but their progression dead ended skiers and left them with no reason to go to lessons because they never saw improvement.

When Lito came out with his books and programs, he faced a lot of resistance from the status quo. Now decades later, he's a hero.
post #67 of 80
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Max_501: What movements were used to do it? Etc...

When we see eski in the last clip dropping into that shute, is there any doubt that the skis get off the snow and pivot 180 degrees? Can one really say that such a move is achieved with tippng and passive rotary? Sorry but physics simply do not support such a premise.
Sorry but you're wrong. It doesn't have to do with physics, it has to do with the body.
post #68 of 80
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Therein lies my primary debate with so much of the more dogmatic positions regarding movements: the only way for skis to point in any direction other than straight 90* from the pelvis is for the femurs to rotate. Some people like to focus on that movement, others focus on the tipping of the foot that can result from those kinds of movements. The results are very similar, regardless, hence the endless debate.
I read through BB's lengthy post and this one and what we have going on is serious back pedalling.

Everytime we see a video posted by a guru, all criticism is poo pooed because we don't know what the intent of the skier was. Well here we have some great skiing and we know what the intent was. There was no thought given to rotary movements.

Let's put this debate in some perspective. PSIA put emphasis on turnign the feet to turn. Teaching never evers to turn with edge and pressure movements was not sanctioned. It was all about turning the feet. This is the rotary movement being taught to initiate turns. The results of the focus on this has been the windshield wipers turns we see everyday. When shaped skis came out, PSIA stuck to the centerline dogma and continued to teach foot steering. Others said instead of steerring your feet, just tip the ski on edge and it will turn.

Now what's happening is we have PSIA instructors looking at the unwinding of the body and saying. "See, See look there is rotation. It is a skill, it is important." So they are trying to now connect this type of rotation back to the nonsense of foot steering. Foot steering has trapped more skiers in the intermediate doldrums.

Now however you get to release, you now have a flat ski and you have a choice. Are you going to focus on tipping your feet and getting the ski on the new edge or are you going to focus on your femurs rotating in the socket (even if you are going to use rotation here I dont think most would focus on the femur in the socket, they are more likely to again just twist their feet but you guys say its the femur in the socket so let it be that). If you turn a flat ski by turning the femur in the socket then you've started a skid. The tail is going down the hill. We see it every day It's really simple.

The issue isn't really about what skills and bag of tricks experts use. It's about how the public is being taught and how the PSIA methodology has put most skiers into a dead end where their enjoyment of the sport is hampered and where they see no value in taking lessons
post #69 of 80
Originally Posted by jk603h View Post
So was it passive or active?

I can do it passively on easy terrains but on tougher terrains I have to steer actively to compensate. My goal is to steer less (ie be more passive). Is my understanding clear?
JK, the terms "passive" and "active" get tossed around a lot here at Epic, but I think doing so tends to confuse discussions a bit. Look up "passive" in the dictionary and you find descriptors such as lacking in energy and will, unresisting, submissive, complacent. I see little of that in the skiing of Wade and Erik.

Conversely, I see the amount of redirection/pivoting they do at turn entry as very intentional and planned. I'm quite confident that they have complete control over the amount of rotary supplementation they are injecting into each turn.

I'm sure if I said, "Eric and Wade, would you guys demo some examples of turn entries that contain 60 degrees, 30 degrees, and 0 degrees of pivot/redirection", they could execute each precisely, using the exact amount of rotary needed to produce each variation. The outcomes are very intentional and specific, and therefore hard to define as "passive".

But really, rather than wasting time debating word definitions, I think the more valuable discussion would be of how to produce and take control of redirection/pivoting. How do we do it? (There are a few ways) Should we always do it the same way? (Some say yes,,, I say no) When should I use it, and to what degree? How do I start to eliminate over use of it?

Anyone care to chime in on those?
post #70 of 80
looks good It was controlled and you skied the run; it didn't ski you!
post #71 of 80
OK Rick, I'll bite:

The basic CSIA parallel turn can be categorized by the four words, Flex, Flatten, Pivot, and Extend.

Flexion is used to release the CM and start the movement of the body to the inside of the new turn. As the CM crosses over the skis, the skis go flat. The CM will be crossing over the feet. This puts the rotational axis (ie. balance point) of the skier directly above the feet.

At this point pivotting can begin.

Pivotting here, is simply rotation of the femurs in the hip sockets.

It is modulated in three ways -- the effort placed in rotating the legs with the musculature, and in the amount of edging that results from both the rate of movement of the CM into the turn and any tipping of the skis, as well as the amount of pressure built up from the inertia in the turn plus extension.

Skidude72 said it best, when he described the pivotting exercises as teaching the alignment of the balance point above the feet. The basic parallel turn continues to "turn the feet" to ensure that the balance point remains directly above the feet through the belly of the turn.

If we are to add poling to this turn, you plant as the skis go flat. This plant can be anything from the lightest touch to a full on push into the face of a mogul, which will provide extra stability as you strongly pivot the legs.
post #72 of 80
i feel like i am late to a party and missed it... since this thread is over a week old, and i just stumbled into today. been too busy doing my PSIA certs for telemark skiing.

either way, looks like a fun day at Squaw and some nice turns. which reminded me....

ESki - i still need to figure out a time/day to get over there and ski with you and your groups. i'll ping you off-line. otherwise, looks like some good, fun skiing to me!
post #73 of 80
Chili, too bad you missed the Tahoe Gathering clinic day. Epic?

Here are the pics.

Eski and Holiday

Dawgcatching looking really good

What ski is weighted?

How steep is this?

Tyrone Shoelaces makes an entry
post #74 of 80
The clinic at Kirkwood was great. My notes are here and I would suggest attending to any good skier.

Two things were remarkable about the clinic: first no-one was rushed, an important consideration when skiing steeps at Kirkwood for the first time, and second, We were able to stay together with Tyrone, Dawgcatching, Swing and the rest of the group while benifiting from the clinic.


post #75 of 80
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
Chili, too bad you missed the Tahoe Gathering clinic day Epic?
yeah i know, StormDay pinged me to give me the heads up. unfortunately between my "real" work and coaching my telemark team on the weekends... makes it tough to get out. anyhoo.... you guys wouldn't have wanted a free-heeler with you, would ya?!!?!
post #76 of 80

You missed out on our down climbing into a chute. Just because you are skiing inbound in CA does not mean you cannot get that European off piste feel.

It's really too bad none of us had a camera with us.
post #77 of 80
Wade, hope you enjoy your new boots! I'm sure I will keep Bud busy the next few nights! As with all video you can pick it a part! I will give this a try. Sounds looks a little like Ford verses Chevy in the teaching world? Eric's right turns he stays pretty square not sure if he has tight hips, initiation of his left turn he has a stem he can't move over his skis or down the fall line efficiently. I know the run you guy's are on so I will ski similar terrain and give it a try. FYI I'm a Chevy fan (PSIA)! But I will gladly add to old bag of tricks.
post #78 of 80
Thread Starter 
Welcome to Epicski, Slider.
My first day on the new boots was good, a little moist pow today, way better then expected, just KT open, but lots 2 to 5 inch pockets of quality sierra cement. i could feel the .5degree we left me out on the left, so i put a business card under the outside of the heel and things were good.

Yes, since your just getting feel for epic, there is a little ford/chevy thing going on, some of it valid, most just verbage.

as far as eski's movements, he will outski any examiner you might have for your 3 test coming up, so while he has some quirks, I choose to see what he does that works well and we can learn from. Good luck at Alpine!

thx for the pics cirq, getting stuck above that melted out cliff is now recorded for posterity, at least you didn't show my crash trying to get over the volcanic sandpaper...

post #79 of 80
Originally Posted by Slider1 View Post
Sounds looks a little like Ford verses Chevy in the teaching world?
Quality first post. I LOLed.
post #80 of 80
Good seeing you on the hill today! The 4 year little guy I was with today was a ripper. Speaking of ripping I AGEE! both you and Eric are great skiers, once again we can pick video apart to no end. I tried doing the move statically, anticipation release came to mind. Hit Alpine on Friday and gave it a try with a current Western D-Team member. In my humble opinion (don’t wont to sound qualified I think a higher end skier will adapt easier than an up and comer that needs to pay attention to his/her feet. Keep making efficient turns, however you learn then or teach’em!
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