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Why the concern for powder performance at expense of mogul performance? - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
I'll echo this sentiment from Whiteroom & HM.

To each their own. Blue ice & bumps are the two things I really try to avoid. As in I'd quit skiing if I had to contend with them on a regular basis. A few bumps in entry areas or on the way to skiing, fine. Any more than that & I'm finding someplace else to go or something else to do.

Echoing some of the other comments above - since I strive to avoid bumps, why would I do anything at all to optimize skiing them if it compromises having the most fun skiing what I want to ski?

In short: bumps = skier sewage and indicate a mountain taken below its potential due to overuse. It is beyond me how mountains have been able to market the detritus of overcrowding as some sort of a benefit. And why anyone enjoys thrashing around in same. But, as I said above, to each their own...
interestingly someone who loves 3d snow doesnt like bumps that much at all, if done properly bumps will not put stress on your knees and 'train' you to ski better in many ways. You would be a much better powder skier if you became a better bump skier.
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

In short: bumps = skier sewage and indicate a mountain taken below its potential due to overuse. It is beyond me how mountains have been able to market the detritus of overcrowding as some sort of a benefit. And why anyone enjoys thrashing around in same. But, as I said above, to each their own...
Ha Ain't mountains grand?
post #33 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
I'll echo this sentiment from Whiteroom & HM.

In short: bumps = skier sewage and indicate a mountain taken below its potential due to overuse. It is beyond me how mountains have been able to market the detritus of overcrowding as some sort of a benefit. And why anyone enjoys thrashing around in same. But, as I said above, to each their own...
Wow. What's your opinion of bulldozing/grading snowcats?
post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
interestingly someone who loves 3d snow doesnt like bumps that much at all, if done properly bumps will not put stress on your knees and 'train' you to ski better in many ways. You would be a much better powder skier if you became a better bump skier.
Maybe. However, I just find them offensive & just plain annoying. Just my .02.

Anyway, I'll pass & just have fun in fresh snow when I can and on freshly smooved groomers when the fresh stuff is not available...
post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
Maybe. However, I just find them offensive & just plain annoying. Just my .02.

Anyway, I'll pass & just have fun in fresh snow when I can and on freshly smooved groomers when the fresh stuff is not available...
How bout smooth non groomed?

Is this recent lack of snow the reason I haven't seen you out on the hill lately?
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmdoug View Post
Wow. What's your opinion of bulldozing/grading snowcats?
That's a more nuanced conversation...
post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilT View Post
How bout smooth non groomed?

Is this recent lack of snow the reason I haven't seen you out on the hill lately?
Actually, that'd be summarized as Crested Butte, Monarch, Monarch

None of which sucked - praise Ulr... Maybe I'll catch you later this week. Been missing some of the regular faces at the home hill. But back to bumpthrash '08...

Your point about smooth non-groomed is interesting. When I was at Stevens last week, virtually everything had been skied, but there were relatively few bumps to be seen. I thought it was fascinating & a bit weird...
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
Maybe I'll catch you later this week. Been missing some of the regular faces at the home hill. But back to bumpthrash '08...
I'll be there all week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
Your point about smooth non-groomed is interesting. When I was at Stevens last week, virtually everything had been skied, but there were relatively few bumps to be seen. I thought it was fascinating & a bit weird...
Washington skiers eat their vegetables and so our sewage remains relatively clean.
post #39 of 53
I hated bumps too, until I took a few lessons and learned to ski them. Now they are what I want to ski most. I was at Monarch as couple of weeks ago (unfortunately the only week this year they haven't gotten 1-2 feet of snow) and skied the bumps almost exclusively. They were fabulous.
post #40 of 53
"Why the concern for powder performance at the expense of mogul performance?" :
My new skis are 173 x 112/70/98 . Selected for bumps :. Powder skiing is boring , I use even narrower skis for that just to make it interesting :. I don't ski well enough yet to ski groomers the way I want to :, except the green ones . I worked on my groomed snow technique this weekend which was enjoyable, but the big fun was in the bumps.
post #41 of 53
This just in: people like powder more than moguls for the most part.
post #42 of 53
Thread Starter 
In a related story, Springfield, MA, and its surrounding environs, will be experiencing, as it has for eons, moderate snow, followed by freezing rain, followed by an extended period of highly variable, non powder dump like conditions.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
1. You realize that moguls are a symptom of too many people skiing in the same spot, right?

2. If you can ski a bump line well then you can ski it on a Gotama or a Supershape Magnum. Bumps are all about ability, the equipment really doesn't matter very much. Unless you are on an actual cmpetition bump ski you're on a 'compromise', why not ski a really fun 'compromise'... like a fat ski.
I just came back from a skiing trip where I skied bumps almost everyday on my fischer rc4 wc in 180cm and my elan wc slx. It is just so darn darn tough I was exhausted by just one ride, but really wanted to continue All I needed was some water :P But the skis worked all right out there and I looked great :
post #44 of 53

Springfield: Ashtray of the Northeast!

Quote:
Originally Posted by schmdoug View Post
In a related story, Springfield, MA, and its surrounding environs, will be experiencing, as it has for eons, moderate snow, followed by freezing rain, followed by an extended period of highly variable, non powder dump like conditions.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Dude, tell me about it. I have come to expect and thus accept the general atmoshperic defacation that Springfield constantly has to offer. Snow everywhere... and here we get rain. Or if we do get snow, it gets rained on before you can even say "pow". Anyone got a game you can play in the slush besides "throw away the season's pass?"

In other news, Springfield has taken on a new slogan: "The ashtray of the Northeast- Where the skies are gray, the roads are impassable and the people already hate you for being alive- plan your next trip today!"
post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
Anyone got a game you can play in the slush besides "throw away the season's pass?"
Slush bumps are fun........ to a point.
post #46 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict View Post
Because to float is bliss.

My Chubbs (87, & 89mm) are a highly functional mogul ski as well as powder, so the two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
I'll go one further and say it's one of the best bump skis I've been on.
post #47 of 53
If you ski pow on narrower skis, the proposing motion the skis make through he snow is very similar to mogul skiing. The difference being in moguls you turn where the moguls are, in powder, you turn were you want. Also in pow you go slower since you are in the snow.
post #48 of 53
It's pretty much a given that I will encounter some significant bumps any time I go skiing. It's pretty rare that I get to see significant powder. Picking the right ski is always a compromise, and I'd rather compromise toward what I'm likely to be skiing on most of the time rather than some ideal condition that only comes up on rare occasions.

Compromising to favor the expected conditions gives more enjoyment overall than compromising to favor the unexpected conditions and then coping with the equipment the majority of the time. If a good skier can ski any ski in any condition, which would you rather have for a one-ski quiver, a Pontoon or a Cabrawler?

For the conditions I'm likely to see the majority of the time, I'll take the Cabrawler.
post #49 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
You would be a much better powder skier if you became a better bump skier.
I've been noodling on this a bit since you posted it - and I've decided it is PSIA/ski school style propaganda. Propaganda that lacks a credible foundation.

There is the notable and obvious point that that every kind of snow teaches you something. So yes - bumps will teach you a bunch about extension/retraction, and about balance. And that's a good thing. But, and this is an important "but" - honing these skills in bumps does not strike me as a direct path to becoming a better powder skier. Bumps, as usually defined, are hard and you are either skiing your edges or pivoting flat bases on a hard surface. Powder is a fluid medium and skiing it on modern skis is a "hull" phenomenon. Bumps prescribe radii that work and proscribe ones that don't. Powder does not care. Bumps are often very, very regular and demand a certain rhythm. Powder allows you to choose that or not. Bumps are amenable to a set of turning techniques that are not exactly the same as will work in powder - especially if you are riding a powder oriented ski.

When you think about it critically, bumps might teach you to be a better powder skier on non-powder oriented skis - ones that demand extensive extension/retraction to manage them into and our of a de-cambered state. Maybe... But the argument that you should ski bumps in order to improve your powder technique if you are using powder oriented skis holds no water as a general case. In fact I'll go so far as to assert that it will possibly develop counterproductve habits. I'd be glad to hear a substantive argument that I missed something.

So with the exception noted above, that all snow has something to say, mostly what becoming a better bump skier will do is make you a better bump skier. Should I probably spend a few hours more a season playing in bumps - well, yeah - just because it is arguably a good thing to add to your quiver. Would I spend any time in bumps in order to improve my powder skiing. Not based on what I know today.

But once again, to each their own - and I encourage everyone to spend as much time as possible honing their bump skills in the bump fields...
post #50 of 53
Here is my 3 cents (inflation ) worth, and some fodder to continue this discussion. I think that one of the reasons people like powder (as opposed to moguls) is that, in addition to aesthetic reasons, it allows you to ski better/easier on steeps and difficult black or double black runs by slowing you down and giving you more speed control.

At least from my perspective, I seem to be able to ski some runs a lot easier (fearlessly) when there is powder on the slopes, ie. it makes you look/feel like a better skier. If there are harder moguls under the fresher snow, the powder allows you to ski "through" them more readily. Granted, some of the ease may be more mental than an actual physical phenomena, ie. that which I don't see doesn't scare me.

BigNick
post #51 of 53
I have been thinking of the purest reason why I like powder better than moguls, and it came down to this: When I ski, it's about skiing the way I want to, rather than what the mountain's terrain forces me into. If I drop into some sweet powder stash, I can just cruise and pick my turns- smooth sail into a rolling hillside, cut across into some trees, hit a little booter and catch some air with a smooth landing... In moguls yes, I see the attraction some may have but I feel less excited about being forced into an icy, skied-all-over turn every 5 feet or so. The only moguls that I've ever seen that I took a shine to were at Mary Jane, covered in about 8" of freshies and actually looked more like Mt. Tom than an actual eastern mogul. If I got to ski bumps like that, I may think about them differently, but until I can move to Colorado I'll stick with my semi-fatties (Mojo 90 @ 89mm) and relish in the pow, thank you. As others have said, there's plenty of "all-mountain" sticks that are great or at least tolerable in the bumps (if you can ski them you can do so on anything), but a bump specific ski may not have the usefulness elsewhere on the mountain like, say a pow stash, the park or what have you. Besides, how many skiing videos do you see out there where people just plow down mogul fields? Not a tenth of the ones where people stake out huge BC lines in exotic places and catch rediculous air- on fatties. People hike forever to get to sweet BC spots, and you sure don't find any moguls there. (and if you do, keep hiking!) ... ok so that may have been more like 8 cents, but I had 15 to kill...
post #52 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
I've been noodling on this a bit since you posted it - and I've decided it is PSIA/ski school style propaganda. Propaganda that lacks a credible foundation.
Bumps are really the ONLY place to learn 3D skiing skills if you live in a zone where deep snow isn't very frequent. My experience as a decent recreational bump skier moving form east to west is that if I can turn in 3D snow when the mountain dictates to me when and where and how much I have to turn like in bumps, then skiing wide open powder fields where I can turn wherever I want presents little challenge. And when the mountain dictates to me in deep pow on tighter terrain like trees or little chutes I seem to ski better than I think I would do. For me I am sort of working on tactics in deeper snow and exploring what the limits are.
post #53 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
I've been noodling on this a bit since you posted it - and I've decided it is PSIA/ski school style propaganda. Propaganda that lacks a credible foundation.

There is the notable and obvious point that that every kind of snow teaches you something. So yes - bumps will teach you a bunch about extension/retraction, and about balance. And that's a good thing. But, and this is an important "but" - honing these skills in bumps does not strike me as a direct path to becoming a better powder skier. Bumps, as usually defined, are hard and you are either skiing your edges or pivoting flat bases on a hard surface. Powder is a fluid medium and skiing it on modern skis is a "hull" phenomenon. Bumps prescribe radii that work and proscribe ones that don't. Powder does not care. Bumps are often very, very regular and demand a certain rhythm. Powder allows you to choose that or not. Bumps are amenable to a set of turning techniques that are not exactly the same as will work in powder - especially if you are riding a powder oriented ski.

When you think about it critically, bumps might teach you to be a better powder skier on non-powder oriented skis - ones that demand extensive extension/retraction to manage them into and our of a de-cambered state. Maybe... But the argument that you should ski bumps in order to improve your powder technique if you are using powder oriented skis holds no water as a general case. In fact I'll go so far as to assert that it will possibly develop counterproductve habits. I'd be glad to hear a substantive argument that I missed something.

So with the exception noted above, that all snow has something to say, mostly what becoming a better bump skier will do is make you a better bump skier. Should I probably spend a few hours more a season playing in bumps - well, yeah - just because it is arguably a good thing to add to your quiver. Would I spend any time in bumps in order to improve my powder skiing. Not based on what I know today.

But once again, to each their own - and I encourage everyone to spend as much time as possible honing their bump skills in the bump fields...
c'mon dude PSIA propaganda have you read my posts? like any of them?, I truly do not believe in everything PSIA and I dont know of any PSIA examiner riding skis like mine as much as I do.

so flexion and extensition, you are right on modern powder skis with fun shape and heck even my own thugs its is not need, but again like are skills can be blended in to make tighter and/or more dynamic turns.

The main thing that bump skiing teaches is fallline. Good bumps skier are focused on the fallline at all time. Looking way down it, turning into it,keeping there shoulder square to it and moving their COM with no hesitation down it. Skiing is about moving down the hill since last time I check skiing uphill is impossiable. more on this later

With powder skiing you could actually on fun shape skis do none of the above and still get down the hill. Your effcienty and speed would never be equal to someone who could do those above things. Keeping your shoulder squarer to the fallline will promote leg steering and keep you more in the falline in your turns. Moving you COM down the hill effectivetly in the transition and thoughout the entire turn is one of the hardest things to learn. Its a very offensive move which actually save energy and helps you ski faster and more aggressively.



I still contend and stand by this quote

"its not that you cant ski the bumps, its that you cant ski and the bumps prove it"

and just wanted to say that glenn is an awesome guy and not picking on him, but just setting what I think are facts straight for anyone reading this
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