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Helmets are for stupid/smart people

post #1 of 121
2/20/08 at 5:35pm
Thread Starter 
thought I would start a new thread so those who seem to really wish to debate this subject ad inifinitum would have a tidy place to do so and would quit cluttering up the threads about poor folk and fatal accidents. I personally find the tone of the helmet debate to be distasteful, particularly when thread continue to get hijacked. So, while this attempt will no doubt be unsuccessful, at least I'm trying.:

I know that there are some on the board who seem to believe that helmets are useless above some speed, that they provide a false sense of security, and hence may actually contribute to fatalities by luring folk into skiing in a manner that they otherwise would not. Others cite the literature and speak from experience as emergency room doctors.

It seems to me that this debate has many elements similar to the conflict between religion and science. Religious beliefs are that -- beliefs, and they are not going to be persuaded or changed by the presence of evidence or the scientific method. So, this debate is, most probably, unreconcilable.

I wear a helmet. I believe it has saved me from injury. I think it has the chance of preventing more serious injury even at high rates of speed. I don't believe it alters my skiing.

Have at it.

Mike
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post #2 of 121
2/20/08 at 5:40pm
Bored huh?
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post #3 of 121
2/20/08 at 7:13pm
Skid Lid
Brain Bucket
Dome Home
Labotomy Wantabee

What are some other euphamisms for helmets?
Oh sorry for the
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post #4 of 121
2/20/08 at 7:24pm
I don't wear a helmet. I did the math and decided the risk was acceptable. Others get the same answer and come to the opposite conclusion. A lot use some other criteria for making the decision. We are all free to re-evaluate our choices at any time.

Many don't assess all risks equally. Some freak out over things that aren't so risky while ignoring other things that are more risky. I personally am terrified of airplanes (and Big Air).

If we were still using runaway straps I'd probably have a helmet, because I've been whacked once or twice by flailing skis back in the day.

If I ever do decide to get a helmet, it won't be because I'm afraid of hitting a tree or other stationary object, it'll be because I'm concerned about someone uphill from me getting out of control.

It's up to everyone to assess the risks of life the best they can, and respond in the way they feel appropriate. Only in rare circumstances do I see people going way overboard one way or the other.

I don't think differently of anyone based on whether they wear a helmet or not, and if I become a helmet-wearer someday, I will still feel the same way.
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post #5 of 121
2/20/08 at 7:28pm
Quote:
I believe it has saved me from injury. I think it has the chance of preventing more serious injury even at high rates of speed. I don't believe it alters my skiing.
You forgot one more, I believe everyone should wear one.

Religious... what's this thing call "science"?
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post #6 of 121
2/20/08 at 7:36pm
I wear a helmet. I never used to until last year. I collided with my buddy while skiing down a run. We were on opposite sides of the run and both made turns towards the middle. There was quite the impact. I ended unp yard-saling and stopped about 100ft down the hill. My buddy skidded off the side of the run and cam to rest against an iron water pipe for snowmaking. That event was an eye opener and I bought a helmet. The Giro Omen, 1/2 price at REI.

I also now wear a helmet because I'm teaching my 3 yo daughter to ski and its easier to make her wear a helmet if Daddy's wearing one.

I will say that wearing a helmet has, to a small degree, made me push the envelope ever so slightly. I'm not hucking cliffs or doing inverted aerials. But I have been more agressive in my carving and I use more of the mountain more than I used to.
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post #7 of 121
2/20/08 at 7:38pm
I think ski helmets are a good thing.

Should you happen to hit your head a glancing blow on the way to that tree, your helmet could keep you conscious and allow you to do what it takes to avoid hitting your head directly against the tree.

I used to have a real craving for high speed skiing. I really doubt that I would have been skiing any faster with a helmet.

As far as them being useless at speed. You have to remember that it's not always a direct head-on hit that takes you out. You can fall at speed and come out more or less ok. I was wearing a top of the line Shoei when I crashed a motorcycle on a back road doing about a buck ten. Looking at that helmet, I have little doubt it was money well spent.
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post #8 of 121
2/20/08 at 7:44pm
I believed that if I wanted my kids to grow up and wear one as a normal part of their ski attire, I had better set an example. I did, and they do.

Do they ski any faster, more recklessly, more dangerously because they do? Hard to say, they just ski like they have always skied. (They've had helmets since day one, and YES they do protect small children. There should be no argument there.)

Are they safer because they do? Yes. No question, if only because they have one more layer of protection to a sensitive (although they can both be pretty solid between the ears once in a while) part of their body. Me too, although I can be pretty thick up there too, once in a while.

Then again, I wore seatbelts well before they were mandatory, I leave my seatbelt buckled on a plane, and I don't eat yellow snow!

Point is, they're not for stupid or smart people. They're just another option that offers some degree of protection, in a sport where speed and accidents (big or small) happen. If you feel you want to wear one, by all means do so. If you feel they are more of a bother than a help, feel free not to.

My .02.
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post #9 of 121
2/20/08 at 7:47pm
Four years ago my 14 year old daughter and I were skiing in the trees at Loveland and I stopped suddenly not knowing she was so close behind. She swerved to miss me and fell forward. Her head was aimed at a tree trunk. I dove in her way and she missed the tree. From that day on everyone in my family wears helmets. What is interesting is that the next week out after purchasing a helmet, I had a weird fall in some icy bumps and smacked my helmet hard enough to make a small dent.
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post #10 of 121
2/20/08 at 7:48pm
By the way Mike, thanks for moving (or trying to) this topic (again) out of a thread where it really did not belong.

Hopefully it will continue here, and not there.
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post #11 of 121
2/20/08 at 8:03pm
habacomike.

I don't think stupidity enters into the picture so I think your thread title is of kilter here. I own a helmet and have owned one for fifteen years. I was the first Patroller to wear a helmet at my Resort. I mostly ski helmet free these days but always wear one while skiing backcountry or when I get the chance to hike some steeps and on days here when the bullit-proof ice becomes nasty, but for the most part, helmet free. But that's my choice.

I merely offered an opinion about a possible misconception that some novice and intermediate skiers/boarders might perceive. That a helmet will save them from serious head injury or death and that they might be taking more chances or risking pushing their skiing abilities to the limit in places where they might not otherwise take chances or possibley skiing faster than their abilities might be able to recover because they feel more secure from helmet use.

I'll go one further and state that if everyone thinks helmets make skiing so much safer, then why doesn't the majority of people here promote the mandatory use of such for skiing and boarding?

My opinion, helmets give many people a false sense of security. They ski too fast for their abilities and take risks that they normally wouldn't if they didn't wear a helmet. That doesn't mean everyone out there shouldn't wear a helmet does it?
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post #12 of 121
2/20/08 at 8:10pm
I ought to add that I'm glad they are available for those who want to use them. I just don't want them made mandatory. If that happens, I'll show up with some cable bindings just to twist the safety nazis noses.
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post #13 of 121
2/20/08 at 9:03pm
Quantifiable data that demonstrates a helmet has not actually increased incidence of severe neck injury in cases of non critical head trauma I have yet to read…along with the overlay of specific studies and conclusions that ski helmets have prevented catastrophic head injury. These studies and scientific conclusions should soon emerge I would hope. Further, I personally have noticed in some of my falls over the last 2 seasons [wearing a helmet] that what otherwise would have been a non traumatic injury to the head has actually resulted in a post event neck strain due in large part to the additional mass of the helmet [our heads alone are tough enough for the neck to manage]. Regardless, we all pick our own poison [see Exhibit A]. For me, I will continue to wear my helmet in large part to deal with what I can’t control…and that most concerns me on the slopes…i.e., what I can't see coming. Best described:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrison Claystone View Post
....it'll be because I'm concerned about someone uphill from me getting out of control....


Exhibit A...a matter of choice and perceived consequences :
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post #14 of 121
2/20/08 at 9:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post
You forgot one more, I believe everyone should wear one.

Religious... what's this thing call "science"?
Nope, I don't believe in imposing my views on others. That being said, I see no downsides in wearing a helmet, and it has saved me from a bunch of abrasions. It also is the warmest hat I ever wore. And it has also kept me from some painful experiences like when I repeatedly hit my head on the chair, or was pushed into the chair loading gate and hit the gate with my head (ski patrol was standing there and was convinced I must have been injured -- but for the helmet, I probably would have been). So, what's the downside?

BTW, I started wearing a helmet after my buddy was scared into it. He took a GPS with us and found we hit 65 mph. He thought that a good reason for a helmet. I got one, and found it to be superior headware.

Mike
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post #15 of 121
2/20/08 at 9:39pm
Not that I have a choice but, I always will wear a helmet. It gives me confidence. I would still be hucking without a helmet but a helmet gives the sense of security that I can go that extra 5mph which is usually a better choice.

Why would you wear a helmet biking and not skiing? Think there not safe enough above a certain speed? Invest in a full mask that cannot break.

A helmet has saved from so many concussions its unbelievable.
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post #16 of 121
2/20/08 at 9:52pm
When I started getting serious about skiing, I asked a friend what he thought about getting a helmet. He asked me if I thought my head was worth $100. I have worn a helmet ever since.
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post #17 of 121
2/20/08 at 10:07pm
All I know is that I am convinced that my helmet saved me from potential serious injury this week.

I landed a high speed air, got thrown off balance in the runout, and got slammed violently head first onto hardpack.

My helmet cracked completely through.

Here is a grainy pic, but hopefully you can see the crack. The crack is approximately in the right temple area. And this is no stress fracture...it is a split clean through the entire shell of a practically brand new '07-'08 Smith Variant.



If I crashed with enough force to crack my helmet (it knocked me out cold for about 5 seconds and left me with a nasty bloody eye, pics available on request), what would have happened to my brain/skull/life if my helmet wasn't there to redistribute the impact force?
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post #18 of 121
2/20/08 at 10:42pm
Aside from the safety issues that Tyrone so brilliantly brought to our attention--

My helmet-
is more comfortable than a hat,
is warmer than a hat,
keeps my goggles dryer and less prone to fog than a hat,
deflects low-hanging tree branches better than a hat,
collects less snow than a hat,
and has nicer earbuds for my iPod than a hat, and
lasts longer than a hat.

Quite frankly, I'm always stunned that somebody would A) refuse to wear the vastly superior equipment, and B) actually think they have an excuse not to wear a helmet.
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post #19 of 121
2/20/08 at 10:45pm
I wasn't going to wear mine this weekend, I was just going to ride groomers with my daughter. Getting off the lift, my daughter got her skis crossed up with mine, and I hit on my back, and it snapped my head onto the hardpack..I have had a headache for 3 days now, and firmly believe if I did not have it..I would be in the hospital, or worse...I think I will always have it on now
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post #20 of 121
2/20/08 at 11:26pm
.My Dad slid hit a tree or so we think skiing in 2000.Spent 12 days in a coma,lost the next four months completly and has never been quite the same since.His short term memory is shot but at least we still have him. Would a helmet have saved him,possibly,either way it is cheap insurance. TBI's are just not worth it. I now ski with a helmet.
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post #21 of 121
2/21/08 at 12:48am
Free choice!
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post #22 of 121
2/21/08 at 6:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samurai View Post
Aside from the safety issues that Tyrone so brilliantly brought to our attention--

My helmet-
is more comfortable than a hat,
is warmer than a hat,
keeps my goggles dryer and less prone to fog than a hat,
deflects low-hanging tree branches better than a hat,
collects less snow than a hat,
and has nicer earbuds for my iPod than a hat, and
lasts longer than a hat.

Quite frankly, I'm always stunned that somebody would A) refuse to wear the vastly superior equipment, and B) actually think they have an excuse not to wear a helmet.
great post

at the gathering, Bob Peter nearly takes his head off with a low hanging tree branch. Si looks over at him and asks if maybe its time to think about a helmet.

In hind site I should have had knee pads on and cell phone locator.

Just because you havent hit your head in 30-50 years of skiing doesnt mean that you wont ever hit your head.
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post #23 of 121
2/21/08 at 6:33am
SIAMESE TWINS???????????


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDenver View Post


Exhibit A...a matter of choice and perceived consequences :
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post #24 of 121
2/21/08 at 6:46am
First of all let me say that each of us is very different in our "risk profile." Take for example Bushwacker's comments above. While Bob skis multiple times more days than I do both in bounds and BC, I wouldn't rate his risk anywhere near as high as my own. This is due to many factors: skill, experience, judgment, patience (waiting for terrain to fill in adequately before skiing it aggressively), having already been there done that, etc. I think (hope) a big part of the difference arises from my situation of traveling to ski and not having a regular opportunity in close proximity. Even with that difference eliminated I think there remains significant differences in our risk factors.

So, given my "risk profile" I can't see skiing without a helmet. I have hit my head numerous times where my helmet has saved me from cuts, concussion, and perhaps more serious head injury. These situations have come from catching skis (especially tips) on hidden obstacles under the snow (especially early season), trying to ski aggressively through challenging cruxes, skiing in poor visibility, etc. I don't mean to overstate my aggressiveness as I'm a 56 y.o. guy who started skiing at 40, has a couple of hip replacements, has very definite speed limits - not a younger go getter. The number of "saves" I've experienced definitely mean I'm going to wear a helmet in the vast majority of situations.
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post #25 of 121
2/21/08 at 7:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samurai View Post
Aside from the safety issues that Tyrone so brilliantly brought to our attention--

My helmet-
is more comfortable than a hat,
is warmer than a hat,
keeps my goggles dryer and less prone to fog than a hat,
deflects low-hanging tree branches better than a hat,
collects less snow than a hat,
and has nicer earbuds for my iPod than a hat, and
lasts longer than a hat.
That lists most of the reasons I wear a helmet. The only thing missing is a mention that several people on this forum (me included) have mentioned that the majority of "whacks" they've received while wearing a helmet have come from somebody quickly lowering the safety bar on chairlifts.
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post #26 of 121
2/21/08 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDenver View Post
Quantifiable data that demonstrates a helmet has not actually increased incidence of severe neck injury in cases of non critical head trauma I have yet to read…along with the overlay of specific studies and conclusions that ski helmets have prevented catastrophic head injury. These studies and scientific conclusions should soon emerge I would hope.
Did a little digging...

From http://www.whybike.com/motorcycle202.htm (this is specific to motorcycle helmets) :

Quote:
One question that is asked, “motorcycle helmets might protect your brain but can it increase your chances of a broken neck?” Dr. Michael Yorgason, a surgeon at Montana Orthopedics and Sport Medicine, states that the findings from medical literature shows: “autopsy studies done after fatal motorcycle accidents have shown that neck injuries and fractures are equally likely, whether you are wearing a helmet or not.” Yet, most medical reports support the use of motorcycle helmets. They believe that the helmet generally decreases the risk of head and brain injury significantly and surmise that wearing them does not increase your risk of neck injury.


An Italian study concluded that a helmet decreased injury by 66%. A Thailand study found that after making helmets mandatory, head injuries decreased by 41% in 2 years. Now, in Kentucky, a study revealed that brain injury increased by 4.3 times when not wearing a helmet.


In an article written by Jonathan P. Goldstein, PhD., titled “The Effects of Motorcycle Helmet Use on the Probability of Fatality and the Severity of Head and Neck Injuries.” He concludes that there are a number of variables in a study that puts the study in question. Major differences are held concerning helmet use or non-helmet use. Normal results compare death and injury rates are two and three times greater for non-helmet riders and increases in occurrence rates in repeal years that vary from 19% to 63%. On one side: the helmet verses the non-helmet study fails to consider these two classes of riders. Stating that helmet riders are more cautious by nature. One, they drive slower, thus have slower speeds in crash situations. Two, they are less likely to have an accident. Three, helmet wearers are less likely to drink and drive (alcohol or use of drugs). These behavior changes dramatically reduce a riders risk.



On-the-other-hand, factors to consider are: 1-average age of the biker 2-average miles driven each year, per biker 3-average experience of the biker 4-the size of the motorcycle driven. So, between the size of the bike, potential speed, age, risk taking and alcohol ingestion; simply, cannot realistically prove the effectiveness of helmet use. The Goldstein study did approach these variables in question. They reported a study that evaluates the effectiveness of motorcycle helmets in accident situations. The conclusions are: 1-Motorcycle helmets have no statistically significant effect on the probability of fatality. 2- Helmets reduce the severity of head injuries. 3-Past a critical impact speed of 13 mph, helmets increased the severity of neck injuries. The report then concluded that helmet users face a trade-off between reductions in the severity of head injuries and increases in the severity of neck injuries.
(Note that I haven't read that actual paper, so it's hard to say which factors would be applicable in skiing.)

This paper ( http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/330/7486/281 ) says in its summary:

Quote:

Results The adjusted odds ratio for helmet use in participants with any head injury was 0.71 (95% confidence interval 0.55 to 0.92), indicating a 29% reduction in the risk of head injury. For participants who required evacuation by ambulance for head injuries, the adjusted odds ratio for helmet use was 0.44 (0.24 to 0.81). Similar results occurred with the case crossover design (odds ratio 0.43, 0.09 to 1.83). The adjusted odds ratio for helmet use for participants with any neck injury was 0.62 (0.33 to 1.19) and for participants who required evacuation by ambulance for neck injuries it was 1.29 (0.41 to 4.04).
Conclusions Helmets protect skiers and snowboarders against head injuries. We cannot rule out the possibility of an increased risk of neck injury with helmet use, but the estimates on which this assumption is based are imprecise.
These guys (http://www.ski-injury.com/helmet.htm) say:

Quote:
So, to conclude, helmets are a good idea and will protect you against many of the common injuries that the head is susceptible too. They are especially important for children, who are at highest risk of snow sport injury. In addition, there is no evidence to date that helmets predispose the wearer to a higher risk of neck injury or cause injury to others. However, it must be remembered that wearing a helmet will not protect you if you have a high speed impact - so go careful, especially if there are trees near the pistes you're on.


The AMA (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13646.html) concludes:
Quote:
Based on the preventive health model of promoting helmets for the reduction of injury from bicycle accidents, a similar model for reducing injury during recreational skiing has an intrinsic logic. Results from case-controlled studies suggest that bicycle helmet use is associated with a reduction in severe brain injury of over 70%.12-14 Unlike existing standards for bicycle helmets, however, there are no current biomechanical standards for the construction of helmets for recreational skiers. Also, in contrast to bicycle injuries, there are no epidemiological data on the degree of protection provided by currently available ski helmets.

...

Evidence presented in this report suggests that use of helmets by children and adolescents during recreational skiing and snowboarding might have some benefit in preventing serious head injury. The magnitude of risk reduction for the more severe injuries (ie, moderate-to-severe concussion, skull fracture, etc), is likely to be small because most skiers travel at speeds in excess of 20 mph and the proposed ASTM standards for ski helmets likely would offer protection only at speeds up to 12 mph.1 Use of ski helmets in recreational skiing would, therefore, have the greatest effect in preventing mild concussions among skiers traveling at low speeds or in reducing the severity of potentially more serious head injury that results when skiers at a faster speed suffer a glancing blow (as opposed to direct impact with a stationary object).

...

The total number of serious head injuries suffered by young skiers and snowboarders is small compared to other skiing injuries. Young skiers do, however, have a greater risk for suffering a head injury than do older skiers. Although there are limited data on the effectiveness of helmets to prevent head injury among recreational skiers or to reduce the severity of injury, the experience with bicycles suggests that helmets may be beneficial. A cost analysis also suggests a potential benefit from helmet use when the estimated cost of injury avoided is compared to the estimated cost of either first year, acute medical management, or annual long-term care of skiers with traumatic brain injury. Because of the lack of data on children and youth, however, these cost results must be interpreted cautiously.
Taken as a whole, there are insufficient data for the CSA to conclude that the AMA should adopt policy in support of mandatory helmet use for recreational skiing or snowboarding. This position is consistent with the position of other major medical and ski organizations.
Magic 8-ball says:


Quote:
Results unclear. Ask again later.
:


The main conclusion seems to be that helmets help -- a lot -- in low-speed and glancing collisions, but you're screwed if you slam your head into a tree or lift tower at 30mph+ either way. They definitely lower the rate of brain injury if you do survive a bad collision. There might be an increase in neck injury rates, but not all studies have seen it. But I don't think that anyone is suggesting that wearing a helmet makes you more likely to die.

I couldn't find any scientific studies that addressed whether helmets make people ski more recklessly. Some studies around motorcycles showed that people who wore motorcycle helmets tended to have lower-speed collisions and be less likely to drink and drive. But that is probably just self-selection to a large extent; the people less concerned about safety don't wear helmets, and also engage in other risky behavior!

I haven't usually worn a helmet while skiing (although I would if I was skiing in dangerous terrain or in the trees.) This whole discussion is making me think I should. Plus, I need a new hat anyway...
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post #27 of 121
2/21/08 at 7:36am
I wear a helmet. It's warm.
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post #28 of 121
2/21/08 at 7:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
My opinion, helmets give many people a false sense of security. They ski too fast for their abilities and take risks that they normally wouldn't if they didn't wear a helmet.
Lars - one of my observations when I started skiing more, and paying attention to my technique was that I was amazed at the number of skiers that I deemed "too fast for their abilities". I ski a lot at Stratton - the trails are very densely populated, and I'm always shocked at the speeds of non-experts, particularly late in the day when the surfaces get skied off and more difficult. It contrasts nicely with the SMS racers (there are races every weekend it seems) who carve cleanly in all conditions.

Long way of saying - I'm not sure it's the helmet, I'd say the majority of the level 4,5,6 skiers go too fast on a regular basis - helmet or not.
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post #29 of 121
2/21/08 at 7:40am
I've worn one for several years now. It hasn't really changed my riding style, well except in the trees. Instead of worrying about my hat and goggles getting ripped off by branches, I just lower the helmet now. Otherwise, everything else is the pretty much the same.

For those who put a helmet on and think it means they can take greater chances. Well I do believe the gene pool needs thinning anyway.

Realistically, if you are a park rat it's a good idea. Cruising around on slopes, it's going to help you with glancing blows, a bad roll, something like that. If you hit a tree or lift tower going 30mph or faster (even slower), well good luck with that one.

What I don't like is people saying after somebody dies, they should have had a helmet on. They don't know a thing about what happened but the helmet would have made a difference? That is about the most moronic statement I have heard. Almost as bad as the 'bilers asking me about avy conditions and stating, "I've been back here for four years and have never seen this slide". Like that means it won't slide...
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post #30 of 121
2/21/08 at 9:34am
Jong question, But I really do not like the styrofoam against my lid, is there a company that makes padded helmets..If so, I believe it is worth it..I think the styrofoam transmits too much impact, which is why I still have a headache..When I raced sprint cars, there was foam, but there was also padding. Might end up pulling out my fullface, and really looking weird

Lee
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