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# Max's answer to Skidude's questions - Page 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 Easy...he just doesnt do the coverging skis move......skis at x inches apart...keep them there. This is not hard to do for a skilled skier like Heluva.
OK, this does NOTHING to get his inside ski higher than if he allows the outside ski to converge. In both cases the inside ski stays in the same track.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 Well, you'd be wrong. The turn shape etc is always determined by the outside ski.....but regardless, if the skis at x inches apart at apex, keep them there until transition...doesnt matter which ski is moving in.
The turn shape is ALWAYS determined by the outside ski? Interesting blanket statement. What happens when the skier loses the outside ski and has to shape a portion of the turn on the inside ski? But lets just put that aside for the moment and assume you meant to say that the goal is to shape the turn with the outside ski with the understanding that at times (especially in a race course) the skier will have to use the inside ski as well.

OK, so what does this have to do with getting the inside ski placed further up the hill?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 Now...lets get back to the OP of this thread.......Care to explain how we you ski arc to arc leaving perfect pencil line on a steep slope with hard snow and NOT accelerate? I read the full BPST thread, and couldnt find any posts where you answered this one.
Please see the first post and you'll see the OP of this thread is how I would get down a steep slope that I CANNOT carve. And the videos, threads, and quotes, and text give the answer. Seems like you don't like the answer and the fact that I (or any decent PMTS skier) could easily ski down a steep run without relying on carving. To summarize, I'd either use a bpst or a brushed carve, both of which have been discussed in detail in the past.

With regards to your bolded question above, that line of discussion started on page 4 of this thread (http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=66701&page=4) when you took issue with my statement that I've seen people do this. As we all know, you're of the opinion this is impossible so you've decided to try to prove to me (and the rest of Epic) that I'm wrong and didn't see any expert skiers carving a steep slope. I've already stated (on page 4 of that thread) that I can't do it and then I offered what information I had on accomplishing this very expert skiing in a couple of follow up posts. And I'm sure you know that, so I find it very interesting that you are now bringing all of that over here. What is the point of rehashing the exact same stuff again? Are you trying to get your post count up? What is all of this about?

Again, to summarize my previous posts on this subject. My understanding is that it requires excellent pressure management combined with bending the crap out of the ski (using the forebody (slow part) of the ski as a tool to control speed) combined with turn shape. To do this all of the movements (tipping the inside ski, retracting the inside leg, counter, counter balance, fore/aft positioning, etc.) have to be nearly perfect. If I could do it I'd be able to give you a better description. No doubt you will have more questions written in an attempt to disprove, but that's all I have to offer on that subject, so I won't be answering any further questions which are simply written to prove that I don't know how to do it, because I've already said that I can't do it.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 PS: I find it amazing that in thread YOU started...to ANSWER my questions....you still just ask a barage meaningless questions...oh well, some things never change....as I said before...if there was a World Championship for internet trolls...you'd be there!
I didn't bring the stance width line of discussion over here, you did. Did you forget? As a reminder here's what you said:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 I dont think it is fair that you hi-jack another thread to promote PMTS, so I brought it over here.
BTW, talking about stance width in Heluva's thread wasn't a hi-jack either as its directly related to the advice you gave Heluva of maintaining a wider stance to get a higher line. I'll note that you have yet to explain how Heluva's inside foot is going to get further up the hill if he simply holds a wider stance.
Hey guys,

I'll pick up the ball in this thread - I just didn't want the other thread to turn into the Max/Skidude show (as entertaining as that might be) - no offense to you guys.

Perhaps this will throw a wrench in the spokes of the stance issue/question, but this seems like as good a place as any to discuss the idea/concept behind it. My thoughts on whether the tracks converge in the transition or not has always been that it is more of a function of the transition quickness and how soon you need to get into the next turn versus "I'm going to maintain X width in all of my transitions." When I ski - to be perfectly honest I never really think about how far apart my legs are. Maybe that is good, maybe it is bad - but that is how I tend to treat the idea of stance.

Now - if I transitioned faster or more efficiently - would my stance narrow? I'm not sure - but one would think that if the release and edge change is very fast (like a forced cross-under) that there would be little convergence. In more arc to arc turns where there might be more time in transition the result may be different.

For years I fought an overly wide stance as a lot of young racers seem to - and it really held my skiing back a lot until I was able to ditch that and move to something more natural/dynamic. My fear of manipulating it again, is that I will end up back where I started - unbalanced, grinding the edges, and static - so that is probably why I just let it do it's own thing now.

The ability to manipulate where the new outside ski is engaged is certainly a tactic that is useful though - and one that may be needed in a course.

Later

Greg
Quote:
 Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier My thoughts on whether the tracks converge in the transition or not has always been that it is more of a function of the transition quickness and how soon you need to get into the next turn versus "I'm going to maintain X width in all of my transitions."
Indeed. That's why I wrote:

Quote:
 Is shoulder width a goal or is it a result that can happen when traveling at warp speed in the course. Something that happens naturally when there isn't time for the outside ski to track back to the inside ski?
Setting a reference point of a shoulder width stance makes little sense to me.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 OK, this does NOTHING to get his inside ski higher than if he allows the outside ski to converge. In both cases the inside ski stays in the same track..
: Do you even read what I type....or just argue for the sake of it...your post makes no sense....at all.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 The turn shape is ALWAYS determined by the outside ski? Interesting blanket statement. What happens when the skier loses the outside ski and has to shape a portion of the turn on the inside ski? But lets just put that aside for the moment and assume you meant to say that the goal is to shape the turn with the outside ski with the understanding that at times (especially in a race course) the skier will have to use the inside ski as well. ?..
Wow, Max is that best you can come up with...you seem to be really struggling.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 OK, so what does this have to do with getting the inside ski placed further up the hill?..
It relates directley to your first comment.:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Please see the first post and you'll see the OP of this thread is how I would get down a steep slope that I CANNOT carve. And the videos, threads, and quotes, and text give the answer. Seems like you don't like the answer and the fact that I (or any decent PMTS skier) could easily ski down a steep run without relying on carving. To summarize, I'd either use a bpst or a brushed carve, both of which have been discussed in detail in the past. ..
What answer? You skid down the black slope....great, I got it.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 With regards to your bolded question above, that line of discussion started on page 4 of this thread (http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=66701&page=4) when you took issue with my statement that I've seen people do this. As we all know, you're of the opinion this is impossible so you've decided to try to prove to me (and the rest of Epic) that I'm wrong and didn't see any expert skiers carving a steep slope. I've already stated (on page 4 of that thread) that I can't do it and then I offered what information I had on accomplishing this very expert skiing in a couple of follow up posts. And I'm sure you know that, so I find it very interesting that you are now bringing all of that over here. What is the point of rehashing the exact same stuff again? Are you trying to get your post count up? What is all of this about? Again, to summarize my previous posts on this subject. My understanding is that it requires excellent pressure management combined with bending the crap out of the ski (using the forebody (slow part) of the ski as a tool to control speed) combined with turn shape. To do this all of the movements (tipping the inside ski, retracting the inside leg, counter, counter balance, fore/aft positioning, etc.) have to be nearly perfect. If I could do it I'd be able to give you a better description. No doubt you will have more questions written in an attempt to disprove, but that's all I have to offer on that subject, so I won't be answering any further questions which are simply written to prove that I don't know how to do it, because I've already said that I can't do it...
My questions were never geared to show you couldn't do it.....as you said, you admit that...and that is fine....but when I asked how these people do what you say....all you can give me is.....no value, no understanding....

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 I didn't bring the stance width line of discussion over here, you did. Did you forget? As a reminder here's what you said:..
Sure...but you brought the questions.......typical Max tactic.:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 BTW, talking about stance width in Heluva's thread wasn't a hi-jack either as its directly related to the advice you gave Heluva of maintaining a wider stance to get a higher line. I'll note that you have yet to explain how Heluva's inside foot is going to get further up the hill if he simply holds a wider stance.
It was clearly a hi-jack, as the first thing you offered as "proof" was a quotes from HH...:, surprise surprise....

As for your question, unlike you, I answer them...so here it is....since the outside ski dictates the turn....and since the new turn will be mainly driven by the new outside ski...ie old inside ski...if it is 6 inches above the old outside ski....or if it is 8...then the 8 inch stance will have the old inside, new outside ski, 2 inches higher....basic...no secret, nothing fancy...basic.

Still waiting for you to answer the questions in this thread....there is a whole host of them now...but lets just focus on this one:

What exercises does PMTS use to teach pivoting (either active or passive)?

Waiting for your response.:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 What exercises does PMTS use to teach pivoting (either active or passive)? Waiting for your response.:
PMTS doesn't teach pivoting.

BTW, Earlier I mentioned a couple of exercises that are used to build the bpst.
What movements does PMTS use to teach a hockey stop?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 PMTS doesn't teach pivoting. BTW, Earlier I mentioned a couple of exercises that are used to build the bpst.
Ok....but i thought you agreed with the post who had those 1-6 versions of pivoting or somthing like that....4-6 where pmts...and you agreed...no?
I think it might be a whole lot more easy, not to mention pleasant, if Skidude and Max had their own bulletin board and just bored themselves to death. I mean, really, can you two guys get a grip?

Why do I feel that you two could inspire a semester's worth of groans just by raising your hands?

Can I say this? Get a life. Get an 800 plan, swap phone numbers and have at it. But spare us. Together you make this message board feel like a Klingon dork pad. What button must I push to make your parents come by and take you home?

If you feel that you in any way make this board a better place, you're wrong. You have about as much a chance enlightening the folks around around here as you have a chance of touching female genitalia.

Moderators, can I start a poll here? Is it possible to vote these two off the island? Or at least mix them a batch of koolaid?

Good lord, grow up or shut up.

Can I hear an Amen?

Rob, who remembers this board as a place of gentle learning (SCSA notwithstanding)
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 Ok....but i thought you agreed with the post who had those 1-6 versions of pivoting or somthing like that....4-6 where pmts...and you agreed...no?
Those 1-6 items where under the heading:

Quote:
 Ways of turning skis include (but are probably not limited to):
Doesn't say anything about pivoting.

Skidude, you seem to be on a mission to prove something. Let's just cut to the chase. What is it?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Those 1-6 items where under the heading: Doesn't say anything about pivoting. Skidude, you seem to be on a mission to prove something. Let's just cut to the chase. What is it?
More questions?:.......why can't you just answer basic questions.....in your video you skid your way down the hill....how is that taught?

How does it work?

There seesm some suggestion the pmts pivoting is done but just not actively...only passivley...is this true?

### what's it with you?

You seem to have nowhere to release your energy? Go ski!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 More questions?:.......why can't you just answer basic questions.....in your video you skid your way down the hill....how is that taught? How does it work? There seesm some suggestion the pmts pivoting is done but just not actively...only passivley...is this true?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost What movements does PMTS use to teach a hockey stop?
LOL. Excellent.
Amen, Rob.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo Amen, Rob.
Amen?

Look, let's put the head of ESA, weems adn two other real ESA coaches not ringers, so how about Barnes and Nolo? So Weems, Barnes and Nolo, Now let's take Harb, Diana Rogers and Rich Messer. We'll put them on a variety of pitches and conditons and simply film them skiing.

As far as teaching goes, ideally a teach off is the best way to settle this. Get a group of students of varying abilities and let the systems have at them for a week. That's not going to happen.

I can tell you from observation that I've never seen video posted by anybody here that is at the level of Harb.

I can also tell you that Harb's books outline a very clear system and that there is no other system in NA that can say that. Good luck reading the Matrix!

The proof of the clarity is in the ability of a student, Max to field the endless questions and criticisms. I would also welcome an ESA participant to defend and explain what they learn in as effective and coherent matter.

But the failure of the rotary crowd is evident on the ski slopes. It doesn't work. It hasn't for decades! The new gear has been here for awhile and yet the public is still windshield wiping their way down the hill. Why, because a political organization abnd it's embers have too much invested in it the existing apporach to throw it out. The focus on rotary as the primary and initial skill to learn is flawed. I suppose if your goal is to perfect he hockey stop then focus on it. If your goal is high level skiing I suggest a different approach.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 More questions?:.......why can't you just answer basic questions.....in your video you skid your way down the hill....how is that taught? How does it work? There seesm some suggestion the pmts pivoting is done but just not actively...only passivley...is this true?
SkiDude, I don't want to sound like I'm being a PMTS supporter or anything here, but just to clarify; The turns you are probably referring to from Max are based on the BPST technique, which does result in the ski tail smearing on the snow. Call it a pivot or smear or smudge or scarve or whatever you want, but that is what happens. PMTS skiers do not realize they are using anticipation in this move, but they are in fact using a little bit of anticipation, though the mental model taught by the PMTS system is a different mental model that is specifically design to avoid the overuse of too much rotary/pivoting movements.

This is a tired old argument from both sides about what the meaning of the word "pivot" means, or "rotation"...or "active" vs "passive". Clearly there is arc to arc skiing and non arc-to-arc. Clearly the PMTS guys ski plenty of turns that are not arc-to-arc. The mental model they use to achieve it is different and may or may not result in more or less effectiveness than other methods, depending on the situation the skier is in. There are really very few skiers out that that have studied and practiced both PMTS and other methods to enough of a level of competence to be able to comment with any accuracy about the those strengths and weaknesses.

Aren't you guys tired of arguing, arguing, arguing, name calling, pointing fingers, using lawyer tricks to catch people in the words they use, etc, etc, etc... Its so counterproductive. All for the sake of getting the last word.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 SkiDude, I don't want to sound like I'm being a PMTS supporter or anything here, but just to clarify; The turns you are probably referring to from Max are based on the BPST technique, which does result in the ski tail smearing on the snow. Call it a pivot or smear or smudge or scarve or whatever you want, but that is what happens. PMTS skiers do not realize they are using anticipation in this move, but they are in fact using a little bit of anticipation, though the mental model taught by the PMTS system is a different mental model that is specifically design to avoid the overuse of too much rotary/pivoting movements. This is a tired old argument from both sides about what the meaning of the word "pivot" means, or "rotation"...or "active" vs "passive". Clearly there is arc to arc skiing and non arc-to-arc. Clearly the PMTS guys ski plenty of turns that are not arc-to-arc. The mental model they use to achieve it is different and may or may not result in more or less effectiveness than other methods, depending on the situation the skier is in. There are really very few skiers out that that have studied and practiced both PMTS and other methods to enough of a level of competence to be able to comment with any accuracy about the those strengths and weaknesses. Aren't you guys tired of arguing, arguing, arguing, name calling, pointing fingers, using lawyer tricks to catch people in the words they use, etc, etc, etc... Its so counterproductive. All for the sake of getting the last word.
Great post....couldn't agree more.

To Rob, Nolo, Volklskier, etc.....

Are you serious?

Max501 has established himself on this board as a royal pain in the ass....the only thing he does is...well all the things mentioned above by BtS....thread, after thread, after thread is hijacked and dragged into a debate on what is carving, what is pivoting....etc....it is B%LLSH#T! I understand it Max who was a key driver in creating the "Ask a Pro" forum...ie place on Epic where Max could not derail ski technique threads.

So I have been giving Max a taste of his own medicine....and as predicted he cant cope with it....he constantly asks for others to explain/justify their position....and then pounces on every little mistep in wording...or...understanding...often these misteps are based more on the medium (ie not everyone is the best writter)or a lack of understanding on the part of the poster (lets face it, everyone is knowledgable...but some more then others)...Max and the PMTS crowd then use that as evidence of the failure of PSIA specifically, and all ski teaching systems beside PMTS generally....talk about a flawed process. Yet when the tables are turned, and Max is asked to explain his position...well all he can do is skirt the issue with "forum debating" tactics....

I like Volkl's suggestion....about a debate between the TOP convential pros...and HH. It would be a blood bath....based on what I read here in regards to PMTS , HH would go down in a ball of flames.

The 3 points I believe HH simply could not answer...would be:

1:
HH asserts that his system is superior becuase it is based on his WC experience. Yet, convential systems, like the CSIA are also derived from the latest in WC learnings...coming directley from top WC coaches and athletes....who unlike HH, were not mediocre competitors some 30 years ago...but they are top contenders TODAY.....

2:
HH asserts that ACTIVE pivoting/rotary (or what ever you want to call it) is not necessary, as it can be done passively. So if this is true, how does one control it with no muscle involvement....it was suggested by other PMTS experts here, that it is managed through fore/aft adjustments...fine...but that forces a direct conection between rotary/pivoting and fore/aft..how then does one overcome the inherrant loss of versatility this creates in variable conditions such as moguls or crud? Convential systems allow for total control of pivoting independent of fore/aft.

3:
PMTS claims to be better more effective way of skiing....yet his best student Max501, who has bought, read, and studied all the books, vidoes, attended enough camps with HH himself, to call HH "his" coach....and trains and practices PMTS principles constantly, with excessive video analysis...for YEARS....yet he still cant carve a turn down a black run.....seems like a weak system to me.

Overall for you PMTS supporters you need to understand these basic facts:

HH is a great skier - but make no mistake, he does not practice what he preaches

HH is very knowledgable about skiing, and ski technique - but knowingly misguides you.

These facts obvisiouly beg the question...why?

Simply put...money. HH is an entrepeneur, and a good one at that. His marketing strategy is to show that his product is different, and thus better then the competition....he has to, it is the only way he can survive.

Convential systems dont need to worry about such things...they have the ability to simply do what is right...the best way for them to compete is to offer the best and latest in technique and instructional theory...from my time as a pro, working with others pros from around the world, I have learned that all systems are very very similiar...the biggest differences relate to the individuals rather then their system...this is not surprising when one understands that all these systems are being driven from the same source...the WC.

So you can believe, as was actually suggested by one poster here, who shall remain nameless...that there is a global conspiracy going on, and that all these convential systems are really a grand lie to spread pivoting world wide...in order to accomplish????....well that last part was never answered.

Or you could believe 1 entrepeneurial ski guy set out to create a ski teaching business, and to achieve that he embarked on a well known, studied, understood marketing strategy known as Differentiation.

That is it kids...if you believe differentiation, congrats on seeing through the marketing BS and exercising some critical thought...if you believe the global conspiracy idea...well, put a fresh peice of tinfoil in your hat, crack another cold one, and enjoy watching your cousin on Jerry Springer.

:
Skidude, I don't think you're completely offbase about some of HH's marketing practices, and the cult-like attitude of his most devout participants is what I think is the biggest turn off of all for everyone else. I am not in favor at all with the rampid mud slinging that happens on the internet between people that are supposed to be loving the same sport. HH and his followers are some of the worst mud slingers of all, like a rabid band of holier than thou born-again-christians that just "KNOWS" they are right and everyone else is wrong and they are going to yell it from the top of every rooftop for the good of society(in their eyes). The mud slinging is not coming only from them. But they are definitely slinging some serious mud, this year seems worse then ever. It makes my stomach turn.

That being said, I can't agree with all of your assessments above. Yes, CSIA, PSIA and PMTS all try to watch WC skiers and derive what they think will be the same thing from it, but the truth is, they each have their strengths and weakness and tend to focus on particular aspects of what they see and interpret. I definitely do not think they are all equivalent, but I definitely DO think they are all valuable!!....precisely because they each bring something to the table that the others do not. If you can learn to figure out the strengths and weaknesses of each system and ignore the weaknesses while learning from the strengths, you will be a more well rounded skier.

I have met HH. I do not think he is purely about marketing as you are portraying him. I do believe he is as passionate about the sport and the teaching industry as anyone I have ever met. Therein lies his problem because his passion often gets in front of his clear thought in terms of how to interact with people. Some of the most brilliant ideas about skiing, I heard from him. I have super respect for his MA skills. However, he also tends to be obsessive about a few issues, mainly I think because he seems to have such an axe to grind towards.....well....towards just about anyone that isn't following his plan actually. And that chip on his shoulder clouds some of this thinking into a narrow view in some areas.

But truthfully, CSIA and PSIA as a whole are also guilty of narrow mindedness in their own ways, for different issues and because of different social dynamics causing it. HH is someone important to pay attention to if you want to understand skiing. He is not the only one. However, its difficult to find too much fault with PMTS in reality because it actually does work well. And it develops certain skills very well that I feel the other two aforementioned systems don't. In the same way that CSIA and PSIA may develop actual pivoting skills as a skill while PMTS maybe does not enough; PMTS develops other types of skills better. Its really silly to try to say that PMTS is just the same stuff with different names, because it most definitely is not. It is a different approach, with different movements, different ares of focus and different mental models. There is much good in it.

But I agree with you, the bad karma he has introduced to the industry, particularly lately....is sickening. There is really no need for that. If his system is so good, it should stand on its own without the need for him to criticize and poke fun at every skier he feels like. I don't think he can open his mouth on the internet without sharply criticizing someone and praising himself. I actually think PMTS is quite good and if he were a nicer man, a lot more people would be more into it.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 Max501, who has bought, read, and studied all the books, vidoes, attended enough camps with HH himself, to call HH "his" coach....and trains and practices PMTS principles constantly, with excessive video analysis...for YEARS....yet he still cant carve a turn down a black run.....seems like a weak system to me.:
Good grief, what a trainwreck!

Dude, I have been in this sport for 48 years, I've watched coaches of every name shape and nationality. I've seen skiers who were hopeless, skiers who were talented.

I don't think I've ever seen an old dog progress to Max's level so fast and so late in a ski career. And I've seem him carve a turn on a black run.

I'm sorry other opinions offend you so. Put him on ignore and go enjoy your life.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by newfydog Good grief, what a trainwreck! Dude, I have been in this sport for 48 years, I've watched coaches of every name shape and nationality. I've seen skiers who were hopeless, skiers who were talented. I don't think I've ever seen an old dog progress to Max's level so fast and so late in a ski career. And I've seem him carve a turn on a black run. I'm sorry other opinions offend you so. Put him on ignore and go enjoy your life.
Max himself wrote he couldn't carve a turn on a black run.......that is where I got it from....

Other opinions dont offend me at all....where did you get that idea? This whole exercise has been about promoting other opinions. Other opinions will never be able to be explored when the author of the post gets hounded to death because what he wrote does not match a quote from a HH book.
Minor clarification. With SL skis I can carve arc to arc for 5 or 6 turns before I'm going too fast for the skis and bail. With GS skis I can keep carving because the skis are so stable I don't have to bail. My point from the start is that I don't have the skills to carve arc to arc on steep runs while maintaining my speed when I'm on SL skis (which is what the OP in the carving steeps thread was asking about) but I've seen others than can do it. Maybe someday I'll acquire the skills to do it too.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 ...Max501...still cant carve a turn down a black run...
You couldn't be more wrong.
Skidude,

I'm not really sure what you're trying to do here. I know there are disruptive PMTS people, and there have been various dark assertions by EpicSki mods about why that might be the case, but I really don't think Max is a culprit. Max thinks PMTS is a good system (as do I and many others) and tries to use it to help people. He also responds to various challenges to his integrity and to PMTS as a system, which you can hardly blame him for. Whatever it is you're trying to do, I'm not sure starting another argument about this was really the right way to go - you're just continuing the same trend BtS complained about and which you claim to also be upset about. This pissing match is boring. The way to stop it is just to STOP.

I know Harald's rhetoric is rather ... intemperate. I believe he's sincere and that any cult-like aspects of PMTS emerge largely from its success for the individuals who've tried it rather than from its founder's rantings. I believe that because I've been to PMTS camps, and the people who don't have a clue what the PSIA is or what the hell Harald's on about when he talks about traditional teaching systems are just as keen as those who read EpicSki (there are more of us than you think ...), because the system actually does work. You can believe what you like. Time will tell. Products whose success is founded only on marketing never last long.

On the actual substantive topic of ski technique (as if anyone actually cared about that ...) I don't actually know how short-radius non-carved PMTS turns work. I've never heard a good explanation, either from Harald or Max or anyone else. I have speculations, which apparently are compatible with those of BtS and Tom/PM, but I've never heard Harald give a complete explanation. Next time I'm on snow I intend to do some experiments to try to figure it out, but even that obviously is not authoritative. In my (and possibly our) defence, I'd say that I've never seen anyone give a convincing explanation of how a leg-steered turn works either, and I'm sure most advanced skiers can't explain their skiing any better either.

It is pretty clear though that the two turns are different. When people look at Harald's skiing and say he's not doing what he teaches, or look at Max's or Miles's and say they see leg steering, I don't understand what the hell they're talking about. Max's skiing looks like Harald's (but Harald's is better). My skiing looks somewhat like Max's (but Max's is much better). Lonnie's skiing looks nothing like Harald's (which isn't to say it isn't good).

Simon
Quote:
 Originally Posted by rob I think it might be a whole lot more easy, not to mention pleasant, if Skidude and Max had their own bulletin board and just bored themselves to death. I mean, really, can you two guys get a grip? Why do I feel that you two could inspire a semester's worth of groans just by raising your hands? Can I say this? Get a life. Get an 800 plan, swap phone numbers and have at it. But spare us. Together you make this message board feel like a Klingon dork pad. What button must I push to make your parents come by and take you home? If you feel that you in any way make this board a better place, you're wrong. You have about as much a chance enlightening the folks around around here as you have a chance of touching female genitalia. Moderators, can I start a poll here? Is it possible to vote these two off the island? Or at least mix them a batch of koolaid? Good lord, grow up or shut up. Can I hear an Amen? Rob, who remembers this board as a place of gentle learning (SCSA notwithstanding)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo Amen, Rob.

"Spare us?"

"Grow up or shut up?"

"Amen?" (from an EpicSki admin, no less)

Go read, or do something else, then. Nobody is forcing either of you to waste your precious time reading something you don't want to read. If this thread for you is nothing more than a boring argument between two people, and is not "easy" enough for you to read, here's an idea... stop reading, and move on to something else!

Skidude72... take a lesson from some of the other posters on this thread (including Max, most of all), and attack the arguments, not the person.
Baja,

When you gonna be at MC?
We haven't skied together in a loooong time.
I'd love it if this board could be a place of gentle learning, can I get an amen to that?
Back at ya, Joan. Amen.

rob

P.S. To that end, I am willing to contribute \$100 to Max and Skidude forming their own message board site. Any other takers? If that's not realistic, I'm willing to split the cash for each them if they can discover the pm feature on the site.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo I'd love it if this board could be a place of gentle learning, can I get an amen to that?
Amen!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo I'd love it if this board could be a place of gentle learning, can I get an amen to that?
Double Amen!!

I was hanging out today in the Golf Channel Discussion boards and you constantly see the same behavior there too. Really sad.
I love these comments......

Best way to appease a bully is to keep your eyes down and comply.....you are all sad. I chose to stand up to the BS. Always do.

I love the "get them their own board comments" too....I think to our credit Max and I created a separate thread to have this "debate" (although Max refused to engage)....so if you dont like it....stay out of here....yet for some reason you keep coming back.....:.

As for the "attack the arguments not the person" comment...well, I have never intended to "attack" anything or one here, only put forward my view, reasoning, and rationale....maybe you should read the entire thread, and the one in which this whole thing started......
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo I'd love it if this board could be a place of gentle learning, can I get an amen to that?

This board is a place of gentle learning, Joan... particularly when we look for the gentle learning material, and ignore the noise.

So "Amen" for EpicSki the way it is -- an internet resource for open dialogue [sort of] on skiing.

Quote:
 Baja, When you gonna be at MC? We haven't skied together in a loooong time.
Yes, Bill. Too long.

Perhaps a Saturday toward the end of the season. (That's when you're there, yes?) I hate that place on weekends. :

She Who Must Be Obeyed would love to ski with you again as well.
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