Originally Posted by borntoski683
Are you sure about that statement Miles? You better check...
My understanding of inside foot tipping is that it starts the kinetic chain which draws the hips into the turn, which results in "tipping" the stance ski...not "turning" it. In fact, when skiing arc to arc, you most definitely do not want the stance ski to be rotated or turned...only tipped. That is paramount to PMTS arc-to-arc skiing..the elimination of unwanted pivoting.
There is something more to the BPST technique which does in fact cause the stance ski to turn or pivot on the snow. Its clearly seen in HH's videos where he does BPST turns at uber slow speeds around a ski pole on a gentle slope.
At that uber slow speed, its apparent that he is not doing any unweighting or other movements that would represent a heel push. He is doing some kind of balance shift that causes his skis pivot on the snow. What is not immediately obvious from watching the video is that he is doing it without applying rotary forces with his legs. But if you follow his instructions in that drill you can experience that its possible to perform this drill without using any rotary forces in your legs. Its actually a cool feeling to experience and I believe all skiers should be familiar with it.
Lifting and tipping the inside foot causes the outside ski to first flatten on the snow due to kinetic chain, which causes you to drift down the hill while standing on that uphill ski. But what is interesting is that the tip drifts down faster than the tail during this time. This could be because of fore-aft balancing, but I believe its more effected by the fact that the skier is in an anticipated position when starting this slow BPST turn. He is anticipated because he is holding on to the ski pole with his upper body facing somewhat down the hill. That creates tension between his upper body and lower body so that when the inside ski is lifted and tipped, the uphill ski becomes flattened due to the kinetic chain, and then that tension between the upper and lower body needs to unwind, which effects a pivoting force on the ski...without ANY extra effort required by the leg muscles.
As the ski pivots into the fall line it is very easy to simply rock your weight towards the tail of the ski a little bit which then causes the tails to continue to fan down and around, due to gravity pulling you.
Basically, you can try this drill and notice that you can make your skis do a 180 degree slowspeed turn with a lot of tail fanning/pivoting, without using any rotary effort in your legs. Its simply related to balancing on the skis a certain way and taking advantage of the anticipation tension.
I believe PMTS skiers learn to take advantage of anticipation and balance skills to get the skis to fan out when they need them to, without applying deliberate leg rotary.
Actually any skier that has practiced ski ballet moves of spinning around and around going down the hill, can experience a lot of this already. What I mean is when you are doing 360 after 360 after 360, in a continuous flow down the hill. That isn't done with leg rotary. That is done mostly by fore-aft balance changes combined with momentum. The foreaft balance changes are timed with the phase of the turn and the direction the skier is facing relative to the slope, which makes it possible to keep spinning and spinning. All of that, combined with anticipation, is the essence of the PMTS BPST turn that you are all arguing about needlessly.
Interesting...thanks for posting....not sure if any PMTS's will agree with you thou
....hopefully they will.
The bolded part reads like you could have cut and paste it straight from the CSIA manual....stock standard stuff...the move used to flatten the skis...ie the inside leg tipping/lift...is perhaps abit too prescriptive for the CSIA models, but it would certainly not be "wrong"...again thou, this is where I struggle to see how these are fundamentally different ways of skiing.
The part in blue looks abit wonky thou....just saying.
But to move forward lets assume what you wrote is "correct" according to PMTS....then the question comes...how do you teach it...how do you control it?
This is what I asked before. Some struggle to see the significance of these questions so here is why it is important.
When conventional systems teach pivoting or rotary, the key element
is not the simply act of muscular effort to get the leg to rotate in the hip socket the key thing that is taught is getting that pivot point to be under the skier foot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is one of the key elements that exercises such as the pivot slip teach...in the pivot slip, you can create the effortless pivoting of the skis you describe...and it should be effortless, by the way.....but that is not to say there is no muscular control. Typically when people try to turn the "pivot point" is up near the ski tip....if this happens carving later in the turn is impossible, skiing bumps and powder are also virtually impossible as well. Hence this is how convential systems teach it...the skis are flattened, then after that it is pretty much what BtS wrote, and muscular effort is then used to control the point at which pivoting happens...under foot, not at the ski tip...fore/aft
balance often plays a role in this as well....if your fore/aft is out, your pivot point will be too....so again this is very very similiar to PMTS.
As for controlling, well fore/aft balance needs to be constantly adjusted in good high end skiing...no where is this more evident then in off piste conditions such as bumps or crud or powder....in this regard pivoting is controlled...ie limited from muscular effort....it allows the skier to be on the fore/aft plane as required for the turn....
A key, and intresting example is the hottly contested pivot entry turn. At speed on a steep slope if you intiate a pivot entry...the ONLY way you will get that ski to hook up immediatley is to have perfect fore/aft balance, such that you are centered on the ski...too forward, and the tail will let go, to far back and the tip wont engage....now with pivoting/rotary as taught by convential systems this fore/aft disconnect from rotary allows the skier this option....if you are forced to control the rotary by moving back or forward...this will limit your ability to hook the ski up after....and it is this hook up of the skis into a pure carved turn that makes the pivot entry a harder move to master then the arc to arc.....and if what PMTS's write here is true, it is perhaps why they cant do it....PMTS has never taught the seperation of fore/aft from rotary.