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Can Certain Skis Throw You More Into the Back Seat?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Here's the skilly:

I'm skiing a pair of 188 Lib Tech NAS.

They are 99mm under the foot, twin tips, stiff from tip to tail.

They are mounted decidedly forward from any of my other skis.

I have now gotten close to 10 days in on them in variable conditions and they seem to toss me into the back seat more than any other ski I have owned (other than another pair of twins with a more forward mount).

Now I am slightly notorious for slipping into the back seat to begin with, but these sticks seem to accentuate that and toss me into the position with regular frequency.

So the question is this:

can a ski toss you more into the back seat than normal due to \
1. the mounting point being more forward than normal
2. the stiffness
3. any other reason (i.e. being too much ski?)

Or is this just a case of me being a gaper/wimp?

I'm debating remounting them back a bit because I really want to like them and get them dialed in (they rail something serious on groomers).
post #2 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookey67 View Post
Here's the skilly:

I'm skiing a pair of 188 Lib Tech NAS.

They are 99mm under the foot, twin tips, stiff from tip to tail.

They are mounted decidedly forward from any of my other skis.

I have now gotten close to 10 days in on them in variable conditions and they seem to toss me into the back seat more than any other ski I have owned (other than another pair of twins with a more forward mount).

Now I am slightly notorious for slipping into the back seat to begin with, but these sticks seem to accentuate that and toss me into the position with regular frequency.

So the question is this:

can a ski toss you more into the back seat than normal due to \
1. the mounting point being more forward than normal
2. the stiffness
3. any other reason (i.e. being too much ski?)

Or is this just a case of me being a gaper/wimp?

I'm debating remounting them back a bit because I really want to like them and get them dialed in (they rail something serious on groomers).
I was reading about those skis on TGR and I remember that some of the people over there were saying that because of the ruffles you are limited in where you can mount them. Toe has to be over a dimple or somethign like that.

1. Having the ski mounted too far forward from what you are used to can force you to lean back to stay centered on the ski. This might be what you are describing.

2. A stiff ski can throw you, but will also resit getting deflected better as well if you stay aggressive and drive the ski.

3. I saw you skiing those at solitude at the gathering and you seemed to like them. Didn't seem like too much ski. Usually a more forward mount makes skis seem like less ski, not more. Having too much tail usually causes skis tails to not release or get hung up when turning and throws you too far forward. I don't think it usually causes a person to get thrown back. Usually the opposite, too much tip does that.
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post
3. I saw you skiing those at solitude at the gathering and you seemed to like them. Didn't seem like too much ski. .
I keep going in and out of liking them. I'll have a sweet day on them where I feel dialed into the ski 75% or more (the Solitude day was one of those) and then I'll have a crap day where I can't seem to get out of the BS and the like (this past weekend).

FWIW, I'm noticing that I flip into the BS on these planks on lower angle stuff (go figure).

Of course it could all be in my head as the folks I was riding with didn't say anything about my steez.
post #4 of 28
More tail may not 'throw' you into the back seat, but it will allow you to go and stay there without punishing you as fast. My guess is that you are 'inching' back there over time because you can get away with it.

I noticed when skiing my twins I need to consciously stay forward, especially at slow speeds. I adjust my skiing 'style' depending on the skis I am on.
post #5 of 28
Dook,

I noticed you said that you were sking lazy and this cuased you to get in the Bs on these. On a really stiff ski (which it sounds like this is) you have to be really aggressive all the time. If you get lazy and park and ride the skis can throw you no matter where the mount is set up. I learned this from skiing my im103 this season for a few days. Skis like that are basically for days when I want to be really really aggressive and rip everything. You have a pretty impressive quiver so I am sure you can find where these fit in.
post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattL View Post
I noticed when skiing my twins I need to consciously stay forward, especially at slow speeds.
totally!

i feel the BS grab more so on low angle than steep.

as for adjusting my skiing style, i'm doing my best, but these bad boys keep throwing me off, though i am determined to nail them somehow.
post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattL View Post
I noticed when skiing my twins I need to consciously stay forward, especially at slow speeds. I adjust my skiing 'style' depending on the skis I am on.
My PEs tend to want to ski out from under me at *any* speed. Not so much with my SuperSports.
post #8 of 28
When skiing fast over bumps in a whiteout, I tend to bounce into the back seat. I think it is just natural to want to fall on your butt rather than your face.

Also, it can make a big difference as to how your weight is distributed by your body build. Women tend to sit their weight back. I have a small butt and am big in the chest... to I can put the weight forward pretty easy.

I have been thinking about building some kind of machine where a skier can stand on a ski over multiple weight sensors to analyze weight distribution. I think there is more science that can be applied.

However, I ski centered on my old Pocket Rockets and have been working on moving my weight way forward on steep and deep. But, in flat pow.. I have to lean back in my boot. In the end it is practice and muscle development.
post #9 of 28
certain bindings can throw you in the backseat.
post #10 of 28
I think you're finding yourself in the backseat because you're regaining your balance... the center of which is lingering behind you. You're too far forward, trust yourself and remount.

Have you ever owned a demo or adjustable binding in that ridiculous quiver of yours? (it seems you're always on new skis. )

I skied for 30 seasons before my Jet Fuel system that I've adjusted. I find it incredible how much I can notice a difference in just 5 mm. I now know my gotamas are too far forward. (but not worthy of a remount.)

Follow your balance.
post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post
3. I saw you skiing those at solitude at the gathering and you seemed to like them. Didn't seem like too much ski. Usually a more forward mount makes skis seem like less ski, not more. Having too much tail usually causes skis tails to not release or get hung up when turning and throws you too far forward. I don't think it usually causes a person to get thrown back. Usually the opposite, too much tip does that.
explain how too much tip would throw you back in crud and powder?

Dookey your skis are mounted to far forward remount them.

also dont park annd ride which you do do, this means keep moving those hips forwards ALL the time, **** those turns.

The reason why some of you guys let your twins get away from you is you ve been riding ski with hyper sidecuts all the time. The sidecut incourages park and ride skiing. Once you learn to stay with a longer sidecut ski, skiing a hypercarver will be even more fun.
post #12 of 28
Remounting, although maybe being the correct solution, shouldn't be the first thing changed. I mean I've skied the libtechs mounted on the line and i didnt feel in the backseat (disclaimer: i'm a lot taller than dookey so maybe my balance point is different)

I'd again emphasize checking ramp angle and fore-aft balance issues first
post #13 of 28
If you want to feel what "back seat" feels like, try skiing some K2 Hell Bents!!
post #14 of 28
I like the gaper theory, it would be the easiest explanation .

Let's forget about weighting for a minute, and talk about directional control.

If you are too far forward on the skis, you would notice that the tails have too much influence on directional control -- in other words, the edges back there would both impede and augment carving. I've been on forward mounted skis, and I definitely detected that "yaw" sensation coming from the tail. So I would try to get a feel for this impact. How does the distribution of edging feel? Does the tail seem to have too much contribution to directional control?

A second consideration is how the skis feel in crud. Do you feel the tails grabbing or hanging up a lot? Does this come through the boot and feel like sideways pressure on the heel? A ski with too much tail behind your boot can definitely give you a tail-gunner sensation. Interestingly, the opposite is not the case -- if you were too far back, you'd have a hard time pressuring the tips and they would be skittish. Whereas, if you're too far forward, you're likely to notice too much pressure on the tails. This is due to the fact that we drive the tips but ride the tails (or more simply put, one is in front, the other behind).

Finally, try to determine where the sidecut center of the ski is and where your BOF lies. That will give a quantitative measure of the situation that can either confirm or alleviate your suspicion. And it may lead you to pick a better mounting point for the next go around.
post #15 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilT View Post
certain bindings can throw you in the backseat.
They are presently mounted with Dukes.



I'm curious as to what the "park and ride" terminology refers to, since apparantly I am doing it (as per Bush's diagnosis...he's the most recent person I've ridden with back to back for a week).

As for the skis in crud, not feeling them so much. I dunno if they hang up, but they aren't feeling that nimble, but then that might just be because I need to drive them.

I have found that really driving them on steeper terrain (crouching into the turn, popping up and over so as to fall out of the turn) really works. Also they love to run on the groomers. They have insane edge (Bush caught me making some nice, semi-short radius round turns on one of the groomers at Solitude a few weeks back).

All in all there's enough that I like about the skis, but they do tend to want to toss me into the bucket a lot more than anything else I've ridden (other than those Armada AR5's, again another twin).
post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
explain how too much tip would throw you back in crud and powder.
Leverage, when you are sking in pow the snow flows by your skis and puts pressure on them. The longer the tip, the more it will tend to float and the tails sink. Here are a couple of pictures I drew.

The first pircture the skis are mounted too far forward and when things level out the skier has to lean back to keep centered on the ski.

The second picture shows a ski mounted too far back. If the skier wants to keep the ski centered he has to actively lean forward. If he stays centered its a wheelie. This is still better than being too far forward.
525x525px-LL-vbattach2783.jpg
525x525px-LL-vbattach2784.jpg
post #17 of 28
Nice sticks, Tromano. Lot of this thread makes me wonder about other "mass forward" tricks like heel lift and "female" mounting location. I can see it in hardpack, but in soft snow, will they help by compensating for rearward COM, or hurt by creating additional tendency to get the hips back, keep the tips up?
post #18 of 28
Thread Starter 
all i know is that my knees really hurt after a day on the Libby's (they never hurt on my other skis).

that and i have lost the burn in my thighs, which means i'm not as backseat as i think i am, but still feeling "pushed" into that position, especially on these stix.
post #19 of 28
Women's specific mounting. Just finished demoing a boat load of skis, many of which were women specific, eg forward mount. Dookey, they didn't throw me back so much as i found that i 'had' to sit back to get the skis to perform and i didn't like it. ended up with unisex skis again, although i wish i'd had the opportunity to try one or two of the girl's skis with a more rear-ward, unisex positioned binding mount.

Do you have bindings on those skis with any play? that is, can you move them back without having to remount altogether? Even if it's only a little bit, you could try it and see if it makes even a slight improvement. Then you'd know if it's worth it to remount the bindings.
post #20 of 28
tim I like you bud but mount a pair of powder skis to far forward and your asking for burnt thighs.

Spence park and ride is in refernce to how you move though the turn. You move your COM into the new turn quite well but once you are there you stop moving and become static. If you would focus with allways moving you COM forward all the time maybe the skis wouldnt throw you as much back seat all the time.

And conversly if you move the the mount back to where gunderson has his you might be more likely to move forward. It will easy for you to keep moving your COM moving forward if there is something there for it to balance on IE more tip.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
tim I like you bud but mount a pair of powder skis to far forward and your asking for burnt thighs.

Spence park and ride is in refernce to how you move though the turn. You move your COM into the new turn quite well but once you are there you stop moving and become static. If you would focus with allways moving you COM forward all the time maybe the skis wouldnt throw you as much back seat all the time.

And conversly if you move the the mount back to where gunderson has his you might be more likely to move forward. It will easy for you to keep moving your COM moving forward if there is something there for it to balance on IE more tip.
Agree josh, I wasn't saying that he should mount too far forward, I was just trying to show visually how a too far forward mount would cause someone to want to lean back all the time and result in thigh burn. I think picture on flat ground really shows that you have to be way back from vertical to be balanced on a forward mounted ski. Mounting back would make you need to learn forward and give you something to lean on like you said, so it will be good as long as you stay aggressive. If you mount back and then don't ski aggressive you end up really far back and not be able to control the long tops which can then really throw you.
post #22 of 28
The mid-sole mark on every volkl ski
I've owned has been too far aft by
about 3/8". If mounted on the mark
this has always put me in the back
seat.

Tom
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by t1henderson View Post
The mid-sole mark on every volkl ski
I've owned has been too far aft by
about 3/8". If mounted on the mark
this has always put me in the back
seat.

Tom
too far aft for you. What size is your foot?

Volkl, and not only volkl, utilizes one shell size when detrmining the center mounting point. For many of my skis in the past, G41, G4, Gotama, I have called Volkl to ask them which shell sized they used for my ski length. For each of those three pair in a 188, 188 and a 183, Volkl said they used a 26 shell to determine the mounting line... brining my 25 or 24 shell forward to match my BOF with the skis' sweet spot.
post #24 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
tim I like you bud but mount a pair of powder skis to far forward and your asking for burnt thighs.

Spence park and ride is in refernce to how you move though the turn. You move your COM into the new turn quite well but once you are there you stop moving and become static. If you would focus with allways moving you COM forward all the time maybe the skis wouldnt throw you as much back seat all the time.

And conversly if you move the the mount back to where gunderson has his you might be more likely to move forward. It will easy for you to keep moving your COM moving forward if there is something there for it to balance on IE more tip.
I think i may move them back 1/4" as per Gunderson's suggestion in a LIB oriented thread on TGR.

As for "COM", does that = "center of mass"?

i gotta work on the hips fo' sheezy (thrust or bust).

danke for the input compadres.

now just gotta find a reliable binding amigo here in Cali (I really enjoyed the work Marshal Olson did whilst I was in Colo, but won't be back that way until late March).
post #25 of 28
Thread Starter 
Scored a back-up pair of the Libby's over Mem Day.

They have demo binders on 'em.

Pushed the binders back as far as they would go, which his approx 1/2" back of the factory line.

Noticed a difference in how they rode.

Folks I was riding with noticed a difference in my stance, as well (I was on my original pair mounted at the line on Sat and the "new" pair mounted 1/2" back on Sunday).

I'm just trying to dig up additional intel on whether or not I can push the mount back to 3/4" or a full inch without tweaking the performance.

Right now, however, 1/2" back of the Lib Tech factory line seems to be pretty close to being money.
post #26 of 28
I know this is an old thread, but I had a pair of 193 EHP's that I had a very hard time staying forwards on.

I think it was because I'm used to getting a tiny bit backseat to pressure my tails at the end of turns to get some rebound and snap into the next turn.

The pintail design of the EHP's means that if you get back seat for a second, there is nothing to push off of to get yourself forwards again. It really screwed with me when landing airs especially.

So yea, certain skis can make a big difference. However, the NAS are definitely not a twin tip, so I'm not surprised you got it figured out with a different mounting point.
post #27 of 28
Thread Starter 
yeah, old thread, but i just got the back-up pair over Mem Day and was able to fiddle with them at Mammoth on closing weekend.

it was good to ride my original pair on Sat and the "new" pair on Sun in the company of the same folks.

one of my riding buddies immediately mentioned that my stance looked more balanced and that it seemed as if i was finally skiing the whole ski.

we even compared pictures from Sat and Sun and my form looked a lot better (more upright, less in the bs).

now i'm curious as to exactly how far I can go back.

the binders are maxed, but i'd be curious to know what 3/4" or even a full inch would feel like.

or should i just leave well enough alone and go with the 1/2", which felt pretty damn bueno (I'm a bit wishy-washy on decision making, if you can't tell).

the bottomline of all of this is that moving the mount back 1/2" made a totally noticeable difference, not so much on groomers, but def in manky spring taters (I felt like i had more control going in and out of the turns).
post #28 of 28
FWIW I've also noticed that trying to use slightly longer poles can knock you back seat as well. Maybe knocking an inch or two off the poles would get you reaching forward more and improve/compensate your fore aft position.
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