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Base Bevel - Page 3

post #61 of 74
I think 0º base is rather unskiable, yes surelly it was a strange proposition, but actually his philosophy is to start with a small base and edge angle after the restoration, and if not feeling comfortable increase them smoothly . I will speak again with him for 1º base and 2º side and if he insists mantaining a very small base angle, is it a good idea to ask for 0.7º for example? Would it influence the 2º side bevel?
Thanks

Dont, worry if he get more than 1 degree base after all this stuff I will kill him .
post #62 of 74
A .7 would be a good compromise. None of this will effect the 2 degree side edge. But if you change from a .7 to a 1 later you will need to redo the side edge.

Before your final decision, tell me about the Dynastar ski, like the length, sidecut and tip,waist, tail dimensions and what kind of skiing you like to do!

After your final comment, I know we are on the same wavelength!
post #63 of 74
Right, skis are Dynastar Contact Limited 2007/2008 model, 172cm, radius 15m, 122-72-102, (I am 183cm tall, 84kg). I do ski only on pistes, mostly on medium and medium-hight speed with average-good level and as most of amateur skiers, skiing is much closer to SL than to GS. Well the last part is rather subjective : but hope it helps.
Thanks!
post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
I used bold only to differentiate my response from the issues raised.

No, the tool is extremely easy to read, the size is no issue.

the red portion is a pendulum with a magnet in the bottom point. when you palse this on the base or side edge the magnet holds the pendulum to the angle of the edge. On the top of the tool are 2 plates with etched scales marked at 0-6 degrees at 1 degree increments. one for base bevel and one for side edge bevel. You apply the tool to ski in different ways and then read the appropriate scale .

Yes, I check the bevel before I start. then after each light pass i check the bevel in multiple spots along the edge and continue any filing until the edge reads the angle i am trying to achieve.

It has changed how I tune in that I have reduced the number of passes to achieve a .7 or 1 degree dramatically. also, even to get a 1 i am using the .7 degree SVST base beveler.

I can pinpoint any areas of the edge that are not in compliance.

There is no minute reading to be done here. The tool has large clear scales that you read. As i said earlier to only caveat to the tool is cleanliness is of utmost importance and you msut have absolutly no sidewall interfering with the tool.

My skis have never skied better!!!! I have tuned a number of other folks skis and have received glowing feedback on the tunes. And these are very accomplished skiers and racers.

PM me you email address and I will shoot some better pics of it and send them to you!
Cliff,

Feel free to send your base beveler back to SVST anytime you think it is off. I mention this because Jim Vermillion is pretty proud of this tool and SVST is happy to keep it at 100%.

coup
post #65 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mateyhv View Post
Two months ago I got Dynas Cntct LTD and they has 2 degree base bevel and 1 deg side bevel. I found it very strange and actually on early morning packed hard snow they are rather uncarvable..

First I thought of reducing the base edge to 0.75º or 1º and left side at 1º or maybe extend it to 2º. It seems rather complicated task as ptex have to be cut and I am afriad some professional could do a mess..
What is your advice, should I left it as is or make the change? :
These skis should have come 2 side edge and 1 base edge. Even the worst finished ski from Dynastar would never be close to 1 se and 2 be?

coup
post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by coupdevill View Post
I agree! I have been tuning this ski (actually Mark Morrison) for 3 years, and 2 side 1 base is perfect.

Sometimes a 0 degree base edge is really a recessed base edge, and in the real world it's not terrible. Not all that desire anymore, but not terrible.

Coup

Dynastar rule of thumb tuning specs:

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']1.5 base, 2 side:[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Legend XXL[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Legend Pro[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Mythic Rider[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Huge Trouble[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Big Trouble[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Exclusive Pro [/font]

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']1 base, 2 side:[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Legend 8000[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Exclusive Legend[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Exclusive Active[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Trouble Maker[/font]

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'].75 or 1 base, 2 side:[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Contact 4x4[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Contact Groove[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Contact 10 [/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Exclusive LTD [/font]


I'd be glad to explain, but these are pretty tried and true. Waxman is another good source for Dynastar.
Thanks Coupe'
post #67 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by coupdevill View Post
Cliff,

Feel free to send your base beveler back to SVST anytime you think it is off. I mention this because Jim Vermillion is pretty proud of this tool and SVST is happy to keep it at 100%.

coup
Sean, ya mean the Pro-Bevelmeter?

Thanks for the comments!
post #68 of 74
Yep! Thats what I mean. Pro Bevel Meter!

Coup
post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by coupdevill View Post
Yep! Thats what I mean. Pro Bevel Meter!

Coup
Ya goin' to Crystal anytime soon?
post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by coupdevill View Post
These skis should have come 2 side edge and 1 base edge. Even the worst finished ski from Dynastar would never be close to 1 se and 2 be?
coup
I know, i know...
post #71 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by coupdevill View Post
Cliff,

Feel free to send your base beveler back to SVST anytime you think it is off. I mention this because Jim Vermillion is pretty proud of this tool and SVST is happy to keep it at 100%.

coup
He ought to be proud. Nice design, nicely finished, easy to use, quick and accurate. You 'know' it's right.

The other aforementioned measuring methods do get you very close (spent some quality time with many measuring techniques this weekend), but take much longer and leave a touch of uncertainty if you are concerned about absolute accuracy. Otherwise, they are viable options, depending on personal goals (and price points).
post #72 of 74
During Bill Johnson's gold medal run, you may have noticed that he almost ate it. His skis were very squirely and did'nt track very well because of the 4-5 degrees of base bevel. A base beveled ski is easier to intiate a turn, but slower to get the edge to bite, and can make for a ski that does'nt track well at speed. If you are having difficulty with turn initiation, or catching edges, then I recommend a little bevel. Be care and make small 1/2 degree increments.
post #73 of 74
I agree with your general description on how base bevel effects turn initiation (& completion for that matter).   However, I'd like to point out that yes, Bill did allow his skis to "float" during his Gold medal run - a technique still used today to find maximum glide -  but his base bevel specs for his 223 Atomics, though significant compared to today's skis, were only 2.5 tip / tail and 1.5 underfoot.
post #74 of 74

Want to point out something that doesn't seem to be discussed when debating base bevels.

 

For a 0.5 deg base bevel, you take 0.0007 inches of steel off the outside edge, and taper it back to 0.0000 as you get back to the ptex. This assumes your edge is flat to the ptex and at 0.0 degrees to start (in theory what a base grind does for you) This also assumes that the edge is 2 mm, or 0.080 inches wide. That is an incredibly small amount of material. I am a mechanical engineer, and the only way to do something that precise with a really tight tolerance is with a precision grinding machine using ceramic wheels. The base bevel tools that use hand files are set up for that angle, over a large distance, but the depth of cut from the file comes into play at these small numbers. Just for reference, the thickness of a sheet of paper (from the copy machine at work) is 0.004 inches. So we are talking about something 1/6 th  the width of a piece of paper. Doing it by hand will be hard for the bevel not to vary somewhat, and the touch required on the file will be very important. What I am saying is one pass with a heavy touch will remove more than .0007 inches and over bevel your skis.

 

Atomicman is basically correct about everything he says in this thread concerning base bevels. I just had skis tuned by SkiMD in Framingham, MA and I am amazed at how consistent and accurate he was able to put a 0.7 deg bevel on my skis with his machines. He told me that he couldn't really do a 0.05 bevel, that he has calibrated his machines to a 0.75 bevel and holds that as close as possible. He is saying the difference of 0.25 deg is so small it is at the limit of what ski tuning machines can produce, even with his calibrations and knowledge.He is always trying to hold 0.5 to 1.0 degrees for race tunes. I am guessing the exact number depends on the useage on his grinding stones, new ones produce 0.5 and  used up ones are approaching 1.0 deg. He will produce a consistent bevel number on a single pair of skis.

 

After measuring almost 10 pairs of my skis (family skis) the bevels vary from almost 5 deg to slightly less than 1.0, and I mean that on the same pair of skis.

 

Getting a consistent bevel all along the entire edge is very important. My skis vary a lot, and this causes them to ski very bad on hard conditions. I would guess that having the edge vary by +/- 0.25 deg is pretty standard, even for a good tune.

 

I am taking my skis to a new local shop to correct them and they can only hold as low as 1.0 deg base bevel with accuracy. They seem to hold it pretty well and the bottoms are flat, so this is good enough for most skis, except my race skis. Their prices are reasonable as well, so they are getting my business. I am doing some skis by hand to compare how I can tune versus the new shop's machines.

 

BTW, I have found a lot of bevel math on the web, which is just plain wrong. SkiVisions site is wrong by a factor of 2 on their base bevel information, in terms of material removed for a given base bevel. I have their tools and now question if the base bevel tool is also wrong by a factor of two. I suspect it is.


Edited by bttocs - 12/23/13 at 9:12pm
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