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What does "hips forwards" mean? - Page 3

post #61 of 63
I totally agree reading statments/posts without context can mislead....but I dont think that anyone is going to rehash things, so every post can be a stand alone essay....

As for what it implies...it implies nothing other then basic facts of the human body...there is no adamant rejection of anything...there is no "how to teach" in my post...only basic facts...if it is misleading, anyone is free to ask for clarification, going off with that it is wrong, when ....it isn't, is just a waste of band width.
post #62 of 63
Thread Starter 

Keep posting boyz

Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

I think you need to re-read VSP's post.....actually re-read ALL the posts from the knowledagable posters....there is nothing "new", "revolutionary" or "contradictory" in anything I wrote...or in what they wrote, we are all in agreement here.

If you are looking for "proof" by way of finding these moves found in isolation...you wont find it....obviously when you move one joint...the others will naturally be adjusted as well...but the bulk of the movement will be as I mentioned above.

Again...somtimes a black cat....is just a black cat.
Im not saying that any of this is new or revolutionary. I was just taking a note that you isolated two movements, the ancles and the knees and suggested that they would be the right joints to flex (ancles) and extend (knees) in order to get your hips forwards. Here:

Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
To bring the hips forwards you have 2 options.

1: Flex the ankle
2: Straigten the knee

That is it.....no other options exist.
Note, Im not saying you are wrong but the reason I said it was contradicting was because vail snopro suggested that we should flex our ancles AND our knees. Here:

Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Let me start by clarifying something I see as a mis-interpretation. With many skiers and instrs, the phrase "bring/get the hips forward" is construed as straightening or extending the hip joint, without regard to the knees and ankles. This can not be further from what is intended. The mechanism of moving the hips fore and aft is a function of flexing the ankles and knees, not just extending the hip joint.
I think not.......
I think its great to have two different viewpoints and that is the reason I called it a new dimension.

In this below quote you describe very clearly how you think the hips should be brought forward and I personally am a bit puzzled by this becaue I cannot do it on snow. Ive tried it but its just not possible. Thats the reason why I find your input here mucho importante.

Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
In skiing...we typically start to move the hips forwards by straightening the knee, then flex the ankle.....of course one could argue there is no "typical" turn...which can be argued....but generally if you need to increase pressure while bringing the hips forward, go the knee...if decreasing pressure while bringing the hips forward, go the ankle.

Ultimatley thou, being able to separate fore/aft balance from pressure control is one of the marks of a true expert skier...so constant, seamless blending of the above is what you would expect to see at the top end of the game.
If you look at resis photosequence you see that she is "flexing" her knee at the gate and if not shifts her hips forwards a whole lot of their location in the previous frame at least some in ref to her outside foot (we were not really agreeing 100% of how much they moved forwards in ref to her outside foot).


We have now reached deeper into the actual movements being used to manage our hips in the fore aft plane and how our different body parts relates to each other. Rereading the thread reveals that there is valuable information just as skidude mentioned recently. A couple of postings stand out that I want to quote here below. Much of what was said in the beginning of this thread indicated that there is much confusion and that the consept of bringing the hips forwards is being hugely missunderstood and falcely instructed. Here is what skidude said early on:

Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Good thread TDK,

Getting the hips forward is the most overused, misunderstood cry of the intermediate intstructor there is......

A few years back I asked one of my coaches....CSIA National Demo Team - L4 Examiner...awesome awesome skier....what is the best tip you ever got....his response...paraphrasing abit here.....

I cant remember the best...but I can certainly remeber the worst...it was get your hips up over your feet and keep them there...., as he litterllay was shaking his head...he went on to say...."It held my skiing back for years".

The evidence that get your hips over your feet...or its other forms...flex your ankle...get forward....is valid...but only at certain points in a turn is enourmus.....just watch any ski race, "free ski" movie....technical video....it is obvious. The idea of having the hips...as opposed to the COM physically AHEAD of the feet seems very strange....at most you want your COM up at your toes....but you certainly dont want to be doing the "superman" pose hanging over your ski tips!

Dont worry TDK you already know the answer...despite what some persistent posers may try and tell you....
Skidude brings up a very important issue and that is that our hip location varies due to where in the turn we are. This is the reason I dont like the exression that we should bring our hips forwards if not explained exactly when. My bet is that most of the instructors preaching this in their daily work dont know it. Rick made an excellent posting earlier, it actually explains a lot about this issue in a very hands on manner:

Originally Posted by Rick View Post
The "get your hips forward" prompt is really pretty standard feedback across the world of race training. Heluva and I were talking about the American girls the other day, and I mentioned how they were skiing so much better lately in respect to fore/aft, getting their hips forward. I said I didn't know who was coaching them, but speculated that it was a Euro because they (especially the Austrians) do that so well. Greg immediately checked and reported back that, "yep, an Austrian".

"Hips forward" is such a needed teaching prompt because hips back and aft skiing is so pervasive throughout the sport. Max's and skidude's drawings show clearly examples of upper level skiing with center of pelvis well forward of center of outside foot. This is a position and balance state many recreational skiers have never experienced. When they do finally achieve it, the typical reaction is to marvel at how responsively the skis respond, the power of their initiations, and the control of turn shape they feel.

This is not to suggest that this hip-forward-of-turning-foot position is a constant, even in WC skiing. Transitions are frequently retracted, which brings the hips aft of feet. But it's that very fact that mandates that a strong fore move needs to be done to get into a fore position with a strong outside leg for the start of the new turn. This is where most recreational skiers fall short, and end up just riding through the coming turn with their hips never fore recovering. You only need to observe from any lift ride at any resort to see that the majority suffer from of this deficiency.

SkiDude, from what I understand the Canadians have a reputation of tending to have a crouchy/hunchy stance when they ski/demo. Yes, this type of skiing does move the hips back further than upright skiing. But it's not really upright skiing I'm advocating. Retractions are fine, but fore recovery must occur if one desires to follow the strong skiing form and function of the WC model. And I bet in Canada there's recognition of the value of a long strong outside leg. If so, then in successful pursuit of such, hips forward is an unavoidable byproduct.

The problem in this comes when hips over boots come to be viewed as an "at all times" event,,, and are viewed in the absolute vertical plane only, leaving the skier very stiff and non-dynamic. "Over" the feet really means over the outside foot in a force line sense,,, so one can be highly inclinated, yet still have pelvis leading feet. Think long/short,,, but combine that with strong transitional fore move and you'll be good to go
post #63 of 63

I guess if you and I believe it was SI took my "1:2" post as meaning that I meant your should either use your ankles or knees...that is a problem...let me clarify.

Yes you will be moving the ankles/knees/hips...and possibly the spine...together...the ratio in which in you move (either flex or extend) these joints will determine your COM placement relative to your feet.

For the purpose of this thread....ie, just talking about hips...then it is the movement of ankles and knees that will determine where your hips end up...both will likely be moving together.

That is not to say thou, that move the same WAY or amounts for everyturn...as these same movments also adjust pressure control....thus we need to move in such a way that we can manage pressure, and manange fore/aft....now getting super simple...you have my 1:2 post...although it is correct in saying it is a touch more involved then that...for example if you went the ankle (flex)....there would naturally be some knee flex, and possibly some hip flex or maybe extension...just depends on intent, turn etc....the amount thou, would ultimatley depend on pressure control needs....lots of ankle flex, lots of knee flex, lots of hip flex, will result in little forward movment , but lots of flexion to reduce pressure..ie bumps or bottom half of a high speed gs turn...if you had lots of ankle flex, but less, knee, and hip flex then you would get alot of forward movment, with little pressure reduction, ie cranking gs turns in the fall-line....

Knowing how much...is the mark of a great skier, and it is one thing we teach students to feel...playing with ratios....a great exercie for this is pivot slips....real basic turn, with no g's or anything, but I get them to play with different ratios...then work it to basic parallel...then to high speed GS.....

Hope that clarifys.
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