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Wandering ski tips

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
I am a female, 5' 2", 110 lb., level 6/7 and improving. I presently ski on K2 Tru Luv skis at 146 length. I love the skis. They work fine in powder (I am in Breckenridge right now with a foot of new snow) but at higher speed on groomed slopes the tip of the ski starts to "wander." Would this indicate I need longer skis? Shorter skis? I greatly appreciate your feedback.
post #2 of 42
The lack of responses here are mainly because the "wandering" you are describing can come from lots of things....can you be more specific?

When exactley do you notice it...?

Do they "Wander" in different directions, or just varying degrees in the same direction? ie when going "left" do they suddenly wander to the right? or just when going left, the somtimes go a little left and somtimes alot left...and everything in between?
post #3 of 42
Thread Starter 
Sorry!! At higher speeds the tips feel like they are "loose" and move slilghtly from side to side. I am having trouble describing this, but while the rest of my ski has a solid grip and firmly under control, the tips seem to be "floating." Does that help?
post #4 of 42
I'm thinking the ski is too short and too soft in flex. But it's hard to tell from what you're saying.. Btw. How can a ski in 146 work "fine" in powder? - even though you are light..
post #5 of 42
JW2,

This might be part of the problem. With new shaped skis, it is common for them to wander while going straight and flat on the snow. Is this the case? If so, tip the skis up on edge just a little and you will find the wandering go away. True, you will turn and not go straight. But small turns left and right in the flats are fun. (Railroad Track Turns) Hope this helps---Wigs
post #6 of 42
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input. I set out this year to buy new skis and our local ski shop convinced me the 146's would work based on my height and weight (and they had the k2's on sale). I may have understated my skiing ability (I am probably more of a 7+ than a 6/7). My Dad thinks I should have bought skis in the mid-150's. I am going to go to Christy Sports here in Breck today and demo a longer ski. Any suggestions?
post #7 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JW2 View Post
I am a female, 5' 2", 110 lb., level 6/7 and improving. I presently ski on K2 Tru Luv skis at 146 length. I love the skis. They work fine in powder (I am in Breckenridge right now with a foot of new snow) but at higher speed on groomed slopes the tip of the ski starts to "wander." Would this indicate I need longer skis? Shorter skis? I greatly appreciate your feedback.
Where do you feel pressure in your boots, mostly the shins and front sides of shins or the calf area? If you feel it in the calf area you need to flex your ankles a bit more( or maybe try to pull your feet back beneath you) to get connected with the front of your boots. That is only 1 possible thing, there are others, try doing the railroad track turns wigs described, if you can make 2 clean tracks all the way thru the turn you will be more connected with the whole ski.
post #8 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
I'm thinking the ski is too short and too soft in flex. But it's hard to tell from what you're saying.. Btw. How can a ski in 146 work "fine" in powder? - even though you are light..
eh,short skis work fine in deep snow contrary to belief. Just not as good as long fat ones.
post #9 of 42
Thread Starter 
I feel pressure in my shins. In fact, they hurt after a hard day. As to the powder and my short skis, I know it is not the conventional wisdom, but I am skiing in powder up to my knees right now in Breckenridge and ski un-groomed trails every weekend at home in Montana. Maybe it is just these particular shorter skis that work? My boots could also use an upgrade, as well. I am skiing in (fitted) lower level intermediate Salomon boots. They fit great (thanks to fitting) but may be too soft as to flex? Would that make a difference with my issue?

Regards
post #10 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JW2 View Post
I feel pressure in my shins. In fact, they hurt after a hard day. As to the powder and my short skis, I know it is not the conventional wisdom, but I am skiing in powder up to my knees right now in Breckenridge and ski un-groomed trails every weekend at home in Montana. Maybe it is just these particular shorter skis that work? My boots could also use an upgrade, as well. I am skiing in (fitted) lower level intermediate Salomon boots. They fit great (thanks to fitting) but may be too soft as to flex? Would that make a difference with my issue?

Regards
It's the Skier not the skis.
post #11 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JW2 View Post
I feel pressure in my shins. In fact, they hurt after a hard day. As to the powder and my short skis, I know it is not the conventional wisdom, but I am skiing in powder up to my knees right now in Breckenridge and ski un-groomed trails every weekend at home in Montana. Maybe it is just these particular shorter skis that work? My boots could also use an upgrade, as well. I am skiing in (fitted) lower level intermediate Salomon boots. They fit great (thanks to fitting) but may be too soft as to flex? Would that make a difference with my issue?
Regards
Another thought as it sounds like you have good flex in your ankles , are your skis bent and/ or lost their camber? I have been skiing before when I bent a ski and have had a similiar sensation to the wandering tips on hardpack/groomed snow. I don't know if you would feel that sensation in powder though.
post #12 of 42
Hi JW2,
Welcome to Epic. I ski the same ski in a 153, but I'm 5" taller & 5lbs per extra inch heavier. With all the powder we've had in Tahoe this past month I've skied alot of powder on them just fine. On the groomers I really don't look at my tips, but they should lay down some nice RR tracks for you. It's a fairly light ski so the tips do get deflected some & sometimes alot in really chopped up heavier snow. I'll be skiing again Monday & I'll make a point of checking my tips' action for ya on the groomed. Next time you get a chance to take a good lesson, bring it up to your instructor, there maybe something else going on, or maybe your outgrowing that ski &/or boots for how you are now skiing. Also, this ski does not have a real wide shovel , so they are not going to be grabbing or really hook up at the tip like a lot of other skis if that's what you are used to. Thinking about it now, I was in softer intermediate boots last year,same ski, tips may have done a bit of wandering then. This year my boot is a Krypton Storm & I really don't think I get that. But I'll check.
post #13 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JW2 View Post
Sorry!! At higher speeds the tips feel like they are "loose" and move slilghtly from side to side. I am having trouble describing this, but while the rest of my ski has a solid grip and firmly under control, the tips seem to be "floating." Does that help?
Sorry, just noticed this particular post. Not sure about the side to side part, but this is an intermediate & lighter ski, & at higher speeds I agree, the tips tend to "feel" loose until you really put them on edge. But again, this ski isn't designed to really "hook up" at the tip & if you haven't already found out , it allows for tail wash really easy if you want. So it's a fun all around all mountain kind of intermediate ski. But, if you want to do something really specific at a higher level, you may want to think about talking to Trekchick & start building a quiver.
post #14 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
I'm thinking the ski is too short and too soft in flex. But it's hard to tell from what you're saying.. Btw. How can a ski in 146 work "fine" in powder? - even though you are light..
Guess about the same as a 153 adding 5" in ht. & a few more pounds? Maybe it's the dimensions & design ?
post #15 of 42
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all of the input. I am going to do three things, for now:

1. Demo longer skis.
2. Work on upgrading my boots (they are 55/60 flex).
3. Take a lesson.

Based on the good "comp" from "911over" it may be more related to boots and technique than ski length. Like "911" I find these skis more than adequate in powder, even at this length.
post #16 of 42
Yes, the skis are too short, and too low a level for high speed skiing, but the problem you are experiencing would likely occur on any highly shaped ski when trying to run flat and straight. The surface of the snow is not perfectly smooth, and the side cut is interacting with every little random undulation in that surface. The ski is "hunting" for turns. It's an annoyance with modern highly shaped skis. Tip them on edge and they will follow your direction instead of hunting back and forth. Instead of bombing straight down the hill, tip ever so slightly one way and then the other to make the problem go away.
post #17 of 42
Ghost, I agree with everything you said. Except-length, which I'm finding is highly subjective. I keep hearing women are being sold too short a length of ski. As I demo ski's this year I try the same model in a 150's & shortish 160's. Some I like better in the 150's alot more than the longer model. Others I've liked better in the 160ish model. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that with women (probably men too) that heighth, weight, body proportion as well as skiing style & skill make a big difference. I'm guessing that is why there are soooo many brands,models & sizes for us to pick from. And then add to the mix each brand & model ski differently in each size.

I think you nailed it for why the tips are moving. About the only time I look down at my tips is when running flat somewhere thinking about what I want to do next, & those tips do move around for those reasons.
post #18 of 42
lifting off your heels. If your shins hurt your have to much pressure on them you are standing to far forward or forwad possitioned. This places pressure on the balls of your feet instead of uniformaly across your full boot length. this will on some skis flex the point of pressure on your ski base kinda like {skiing on a ball berring.} I had my bindings mounted to far forward once and never had my boots fittet to not only myself but my skis also. My ski on a long high speed section of hard pack to get to the chair did the same thing, Kinda wabaly and wiggly right. I moved the bindings back 2cm and problem solved. I was at the ideal pivot point for turning but lost straight line stabilaty on smooth hard pack and groomed . You may find also that the ramp angle on your bindings is to steep forward? Some bindings are higher at the heel than the toe and reverse also. Im no boot fitter but if you have lots of pressure on your shines I know that your not supost to have. Every ones foot is differant so it might be a good idea to have your balance ON YOUR SKIS in your boots checked for nutrality. Sounds like to me any way you may need a toe wedge to get your shins of the tong so hard. if you find you are flexing forward so far do your thighs get a burn farly quick? Thats usualy a sign that your out of true balance on your skis. Youe boots can feel great just wearing them but once your on your skis everything can change because of the angle of the bindings and the placement of the bindings. It sounds more messed up than it is. thers always little things to think about to get everything just right. a good boot fitter can realy help you out hear. I know you said you had a boot fitter work on you but did he check your balance on your skis also?
post #19 of 42
Your skiing a flat ski. Put it on edge and you will be in control. Skiing a flat ski, especially on the groomed, is skiing out of control, IMO.
post #20 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by whipper View Post
lifting off your heels. If your shins hurt your have to much pressure on them you are standing to far forward or forwad possitioned. This places pressure on the balls of your feet instead of uniformaly across your full boot length. this will on some skis flex the point of pressure on your ski base kinda like {skiing on a ball berring.} I had my bindings mounted to far forward once and never had my boots fittet to not only myself but my skis also. My ski on a long high speed section of hard pack to get to the chair did the same thing, Kinda wabaly and wiggly right. I moved the bindings back 2cm and problem solved. I was at the ideal pivot point for turning but lost straight line stabilaty on smooth hard pack and groomed . You may find also that the ramp angle on your bindings is to steep forward? Some bindings are higher at the heel than the toe and reverse also. Im no boot fitter but if you have lots of pressure on your shines I know that your not supost to have. Every ones foot is differant so it might be a good idea to have your balance ON YOUR SKIS in your boots checked for nutrality. Sounds like to me any way you may need a toe wedge to get your shins of the tong so hard. if you find you are flexing forward so far do your thighs get a burn farly quick? Thats usualy a sign that your out of true balance on your skis. Youe boots can feel great just wearing them but once your on your skis everything can change because of the angle of the bindings and the placement of the bindings. It sounds more messed up than it is. thers always little things to think about to get everything just right. a good boot fitter can realy help you out hear. I know you said you had a boot fitter work on you but did he check your balance on your skis also?
Just so you know, putting a wedge under the tow does not move a skier back, but forward. This would bring the hips up and cause more pressure on the front of the boots. By standing taller, the skier will not become as fatigued as much as they would if the hips are in back of the heels.

As mentioned in the next post and as I suggested in my first post, the skier is skiing on a flat ski and this is what is causing the ski to wobble.----Wigs
post #21 of 42
I agree with the possibility that jw2 is overloading these skis. 911over lays out some of the considerations about selecting a ski. All skis within a brand's model line get proportionally stiffer as they get longer. We would do better with a standardized measurement of the energy a skier needs to put into a ski (from their height, weight, technical ability, speed, quickness, etc.) to make it come alive and the level where the ski is overloaded, but no such measurement exists except our feelings on a demo run. jw2 might do OK with the TrueLuv in a longer size (stiffer) at the speeds she's running, or with a more capable ski in her present size.

The sore shins is a concern. The skier should stand centered on their skis so the pressure is felt under the foot just behind the arch. The boots might be way too soft for jw2's present ability, and she's trying to find some performance from these lower level boots and skis.

I disagree with the statement that all highly shaped skis are unstable when skied flat. I'm steady on my Head Supershapes (12m radius) and Head Xenon 7.0 (13m radius) when skiing with these skis flat as fast as I've ever skied. The skis are well tuned with 1° base edge bevel and flat bases.
post #22 of 42
If the ski does this when on the flats, then it's normal and can be alleviated with slight edge pressure. Almost all modern skis will do this, and it gets worse as the sidecut gets deeper. The wider the tip gets relative to the waist, the more the ski can yaw and wobble around when perturbed by irregularities in the snow.

If the ski does this when edged, I can think of two common causes. Most likely -- you are not keeping your weight forward and over the edges. For instance, if turning across a steep trail, the tip of the downhill ski can wobble if your body weight is not projected down the fall line (say if you're leaning into the hill). Sometimes tip wobble is my reminder to keep my upper body leaning down the hill.

Second, I have noticed that some skis have jittery tips when I first ski them new (or after a tune), and this is always remedied by lightly dulling the tips and tails. It's not always needed, which is why I wait until I ski them for a few runs. If I feel like the tips shimmy around and are grabby when edged, then I dull the tips. If not, I leave them sharp.

Good luck!
post #23 of 42
WIGS that was only if the ramp angle of the bindings was to far forward this way you can get more nutrual. If your fighting this you will sometimes force your self over the ski casing tong pressure hence the heel lifting. I relize tow lifts put you forward but they put you forward not you put yourself forward if that makes sence. i souldnt have posted at 1:20am. Just sounds like to much toe pressure to me not even , more nutral body possition would help and make sure bindings are mounted central and straight also. it also could be boot canting,fit,ect.
post #24 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JW2 View Post
I feel pressure in my shins. In fact, they hurt after a hard day. As to the powder and my short skis, I know it is not the conventional wisdom, but I am skiing in powder up to my knees right now in Breckenridge and ski un-groomed trails every weekend at home in Montana. Maybe it is just these particular shorter skis that work? My boots could also use an upgrade, as well. I am skiing in (fitted) lower level intermediate Salomon boots. They fit great (thanks to fitting) but may be too soft as to flex? Would that make a difference with my issue?

Regards
It's the Skier not the skis.


Yeah every time I think its the equipment, deep down inside I know its always me-hence I am a disaster skier

post #25 of 42

disasterskier:  Good research skills.  I read your other thread.  My guess is that since you have been skiing for thirty years, you learned on longer straight skis and when skiing straight you skied them flat and not on edge.

 

IMHO, your answer lies in @Wigs' post #5 and @Ghost's post # 16. You must learn to carve a parabolic ski by tipping your knees uphill to put your skis on their uphill edges with nearly all of the weight on the outside/downhill ski.  Parabolic skis are not meant to be skied flat (at least on a hard surface) and as a result they will wander or wobble if you do.  And no amount of forward or cuff pressure will stop that wandering/wobbling if the ski is flat and not tipped onto edge.

 

And it would truly be helpful if you would give us your weight, height, and make, model, and sidecut or radius of your skis.  "Just the facts." per Joe Friday.

 

Now that you're an official member of the community it is your duty to private message @JW2 and ask her to come back and update her thread to let you and the rest of us know how she solved her wandering ski problem.  I mean, she no doubt has something to share since she has had 8 years to figure it out...

 

Best.


Edited by Tim Hodgson - 11/23/16 at 6:06am
post #26 of 42

Just a couple of cents on the "I feel the burn on my shins (even get bruises and skin peel-off) after a long skiing day":

 

It is often the case that this happens not because of the forward weighting while skiing, but because of the way we stand on our skis while being stationary (waiting on the ski lift queue, taking a break etc). It is perfectly possible to have shin bruises in the afternoon even if skiing sitting on our back the whole day.

 

Not saying this is the case here, just a reminder that it's not a safe sign of correct weight distribution by itself.

post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Hodgson View Post
 

disasterskier:  Good research skills.  I read your other thread.  My guess is that since you have been skiing for thirty years, you learned on longer straight skis and when skiing straight you skied them flat and not on edge.

 

IMHO, your answer lies in @Wigs' post #5 and @Ghost's post # 16. You must learn to carve a parabolic ski by tipping your knees uphill to put your skis on their uphill edges with nearly all of the weight on the outside/downhill ski.  Parabolic skis are not meant to be skied flat (at least on a hard surface) and as a result they will wander or wobble if you do.  And no amount of forward or cuff pressure will stop that wandering/wobbling if the ski is flat and not tipped onto edge.

 

And it would truly be helpful if you would give us your weight, height, and make, model, and sidecut or radius of your skis.  "Just the facts." per Joe Friday.

 

Now that you're an official member of the community it is your duty to private message @JW2 and ask her to come back and update her thread to let you and the rest of us know how she solved her wandering ski problem.  I mean, she no doubt has something to share since she has had 8 years to figure it out...

 

Best.

Thank you a ton, Tim. The deal about the forward pressure pretty much puts that idea to rest and I will concentrate on edging.  Yes I used to have the Olin Racing 181's I think.  

My Skis are the Stockli Rotor with the palm trees on them.  They are back dated but new for $256.  They are I guess 180 twin tip.  Right now they are center mount but I have a duplicate pair I'm getting mounted to the far back factory setting.  The bindings are Salomon and I am happy with them.  They were about 156$  The boots are a little or maybe a lot above my skill level.  They are lang 130 flex (the blue ones)  I am from the 80's so when I see the word Lange, that name gets my complete attention.  The poles are just K2 Four Speed.  My height is 5'10" and my weight is 170.  I don't think I'm an official member, just addicted to getting my ski problems fixed with whatever time I have left.  I am 47 and lived my life like I get a "do-over".  Yes I will absolutely contact this @JW2.  I would be delighted to pass along anything that helps someone else.

Mark

Oh and also yes I have the 80's obsession with the things we had back them but have upgraded the ski things to keep up with technology.

post #28 of 42

Hey buddy!  GoodOnYa'M8!  That's news we can use.  @LiquidFeet who knows alot more about this stuff than me, commented on your twin tips, and I think I know where she was going.

 

Where do you ski?  What resort and what terrain?  Groomers?  Off-Piste?  Terrain Park?

 

So here's the deal:  I listened to this global skiing podcast interview of world renowned technical skier and PSIA Trainer Jonathan Ballou and he said MOST SKIERS ARE ON TOO WIDE SKIS FOR THE TERRAIN.  (Actually Mr. Ballou is much more softspoken than that, so I added the all caps for emphasis...)

 

I don't know anything about Stockli twin tip skis, so take the following with a grain of salt.  You likely wont' be able to learn to carve those twin tips without the uphill ski diverging out of the carve uphill.  The only cure for that in my experience with old school twin tips is a lot of (too much) forward pressure while on edge. And that may be the basis for your instructor's admonition.

 

Keep the twin tips for:  1.  the Terrain Park, and  2.  the Powder.

 

Get a 172cm to 176cm long, true frontside carving ski (not a true SL race ski) for your Groomer ski.  And you will learn to carve and you will have the most fun you have had with your clothes on since skiing powder.  And by the way, your Lange's (like my Lange's and many other instructors' Langes on this forum) were made to be matched with carving skis.

 

I really like my 176cm Dynastar Contact (10's?) carving skis and I am a little over 5'10" and about 200lbs.  

 

You can find the Contacts online for cheap now.  Others here will have other recommendations for a frontside carving ski.

 

One final word of advice:  DEMO, DEMO, DEMO !!!   And use demo carving skis in your next Groomer lesson so your instructor can get you to experience something really fun and new.


Edited by Tim Hodgson - 11/23/16 at 7:11pm
post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Hodgson View Post
 

Hey buddy!  GoodOnYa'M8!  That's news we can use.  @LiquidFeet who knows alot more about this stuff than me, commented on your twin tips, and I think I know where she was going.

 

Where do you ski?  What resort and what terrain?  Groomers?  Off-Piste?  Terrain Park?

 

So here's the deal:  I listened to this global skiing podcast interview of world renowned technical skier and PSIA Trainer Jonathan Ballou and he said MOST SKIERS ARE ON TOO WIDE SKIS FOR THE TERRAIN.  (Actually Mr. Ballou is much more softspoken than that, so I added the all caps for emphasis...)

 

You likely wont' be able to learn to carve those twin tips without the uphill ski diverging out of the carve uphill.  The only cure for that with true old school twin tips is a lot of (too much) forward pressure while on edge. And that may be the basis for your instructor's admonition.

 

Keep the twin tips for:  1.  the Terrain Park, and  2.  the Powder.

 

Get a 172cm to 176cm long, true frontside carving ski (not a true SL race ski) for your Groomer ski.  And you will learn to carve and you will have the most fun you have had with your clothes on since skiing powder.  And by the way, your Lange's (like my Lange's and many other instructors' Langes on this forum) were made to be matched with carving skis.

 

I really like my 176cm Dynastar Contact (10's?) carving skis and I am a little over 5'10" and about 200lbs.  

 

You can find the Contacts online for cheap now.  Others here will have other recommendations for a frontside carving ski.

 

One final word of advice:  DEMO, DEMO, DEMO !!!   And use demo carving skis in your next Groomer lesson so your instructor can get you to experience something really fun and new.


Wow that is amazing.  I go to Snowshoe every year and it is usually ice covered with snow.  Then I go to Snowbird once a year and they have all this thing they call Powder.  I just looked at the Frontside carvers and I have the same problem when I rent them.  I was at Mineral Basin last March in Powder Basin and the tips were all over the place.  If I cheat and go a little knock kneed the skis go straight.  They're both slightly on the inside edge.  I didn't want to keep that up because I think it solves an issue now but causes problems later if that makes any sense.  If anyone needs a cracked rib just let me know.  I've got one.  I fell in a no fall zone in South Andros Bahamas.  I was drunk and I fell on the Cabana step.  Its not always the rocks that get us.  Funny but true.  Oh and by the way as someone said..."Yeah but these are my rock skis."

post #30 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by disasterskier View Post
 


Wow that is amazing.  I go to Snowshoe every year and it is usually ice covered with snow.  Then I go to Snowbird once a year and they have all this thing they call Powder.  I just looked at the Frontside carvers and I have the same problem when I rent them.  I was at Mineral Basin last March in Powder Basin and the tips were all over the place.  If I cheat and go a little knock kneed the skis go straight.  They're both slightly on the inside edge.  I didn't want to keep that up because I think it solves an issue now but causes problems later if that makes any sense.  If anyone needs a cracked rib just let me know.  I've got one.  I fell in a no fall zone in South Andros Bahamas.  I was drunk and I fell on the Cabana step.  Its not always the rocks that get us.  Funny but true.  Oh and by the way as someone said..."Yeah but these are my rock skis."


Mineral Basin is not in Powder Basin its at Snowbird-I have been drinking Vodka

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