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Marker 20.0 would not release - Page 2

post #31 of 49
bindings don't protect your knees. says so in all the shop manuals. not skiing, but here is an example of the kind of move that results in a blown acl, watch the video and see if you think your binders would release at any din with that kind of move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHgu5e9K3Ww
post #32 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by epl View Post
bindings don't protect your knees.
Set to settings well above the industry standard, they don't protect your bones either.
post #33 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thanks folks . for the record , I was on a warm up run just before going into the gates with an instructor for the day . I am for sure going to get a binding that I can set around 8 or so and get on with it . I was on the salomons all last year set at 7 or so and never came out once . I would of never been on the 20.0 had they not been given to me by a shop for mounting a plate on backwards . Another marker guy is taking the 20.0s off my hands and if we can get the tyrolias to work , I am getting the FF15 or 17 with a much broader din range . if they wont work on that plate , then the marker 16.0 set at 7 or 8 . I will say one thing " marker race bindings will hold you in for sure
post #34 of 49
Thread Starter 
Oh , would the marker comp 1400 work just as well as the comp 1600 s . those things are heavy as he** . or I am going over to tyrolia .
post #35 of 49
No, the 1400 doesn't work like the 1600. I'm not sure which of those works "well". You could get a Tyrolia, or you could get a Salomon or a Look or Rossignol.

edit2: There is a very dangerous trend in this industry that involves selling comp bindings to non-athletes. Marker doesn't indemnify those bindings that shop gave you. If that shop sold them to you without having you fill out some markedly different paperwork that made it clear to you that these bindings aren't meant for the general public and don't necessarily perform in the same way industry standard production bindings do, they did you a huge disservice and they took on a stupid amount of liability.

Interestingly, Salomon will indemnify their comp binders when they can be set up within industry standards. Also, Salomon finds no need to make a binder that goes to 30. Hmm.
post #36 of 49
I have to say I'm happy with my recently purchased Tyrolia FF17+ on my McGs, and the Fisher-branded (Tyrolia) FR12s on the SCs, and even the antique all-metal Tyrolia 490s on my old Kästles. I have never had an unwanted release or a failure to release with any of them.

I got the FF17+ after a bit of research last year. The only thing dubious about them to an old dog like me is the little track thingy in the toe piece that aids release; it's one more thing that can go wrong and I never needed anything more than an anti friction pad on the old 490s. I have since heard that the FF18s don't have that added complexity on the toe-piece, but I can't find much info on them.
post #37 of 49
Ghost, the FF18 and FF20 do not have the ABS (anti block system) conveyor belt thing-a ma-gig. But I have it on two of my bindings and never had a problem...even if it were to jam, the plastic seems to be made of teflon or something similarly slick so youll still slide out; the fact it spins is just a plus.
post #38 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
Have any of you kept a falls log?
"Gambling is illegal at Bushwood, sir, and I never fall"
post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
Big E, I'm not trying to make out like I'm amazing or anything. I tend to ski fairly fast, like to catch little poppers, and have been doing some progression in my skiing that would make it extremely undesirable to have a pre-release. I have skied with many Bears who've had the pleasure of picking up my , who can testify that 7 is not too high for my skier type, on my particular bindings anyway. While I don't have Pre-Release issues, I also don't have a problem with the skis Not-Releasing, when it is desirable.
I am suggesting that you may have the exact same performance at a lower setting.

Also, I am suggesting (here with certainty) that you'd have more safety against the slow/stupid fall with a lower setting.

But in the end, it is up to you.

My fears are not of the higher speed incidences. They are of the low speed "how the heck can that happen to me, I never fall" sort of falls.
post #40 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

They are appropriate for a Race course or ski mountaineering.
Actually, they're not even appropriate for ski mountaineering unless you're a complete masochist who really enjoys hauling excessively heavy gear. Those bindings alone weigh more than most serious alpinist's entire rig.
post #41 of 49
Thread Starter 
One more week and my cast is off . I guess I heal fast . Now , I just found me a pair of superspeeds in a 182cm to cruise on . Those stockli race skis are fun and gone - but I want to just relax for the rest of the season .
post #42 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
No, it doesn't. Speed and terrain have nothing to do with the torques that will break bones in your lower leg.

Want a cookie? I've prereleased at settings considerably higher than that in several brands of bindings. I also weigh ~200lbs and wear a 304 boot.

Can I touch you? You ski in effing Michigan, or Minnesota, or Illinois, or whatever. And you ski on Markers. I know twelve year olds that would prerelease from Markers set at 8. BFD. Freeskiing in Marker comp bindings is just stupid. Ski in a Look or Salomon comp binder that actually works at reasonable settings. Duh.

I skied over a blind rollover today, grabbed a rock where the thing had slid deep, lost a ski, and beatered about a hundred yards. I'm sore as hell, sure I'll be worse tomorrow. Would my ski have stayed on if my binders were set to 14? Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't change the strength of my bones. As it was, I was skiing on one of my pairs of skis that has (THE HORROR!1!) retail Salomon bindings, and they somehow manage to keep my skis on my feet when I think they should.

I'm surely not as core as the people skiing Markers that go to 20 though. :
Wow. That's a good solid post, Garrett....: Really makes a lot of sense....

Do you think I've never owned any other brand of binding? I actually have a pair of Look P18s and a pair of Salomon 914's right now. They are all on the same DIN setting. They all work.

I'm just offering one person's personal experience. I apologize for living in Michigan.
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer
The speed and terrain you ski plays a large role.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
No, it doesn't. Speed and terrain have nothing to do with the torques that will break bones in your lower leg.
I need to respond to this one specifically....

So what you are saying is, no matter how fast you ski or what terrain you are on, there is no way that you will need your bindings set any higher than the "chart" calls for. Is that right? Are you seriously suggesting that?

I just skied at Jackson Hole with buddy from home. He's a ski instructor (level 3 cert), Ski patrol, etc.... Solid, solid skier. At home he skis groomed runs at fairly moderate speeds, and doesn't race. He uses Salomon bindings set on 8, which is correct according to the chart. At home he never pre-releases. In our first MORNING at JH, he pre-released at least 6 or 7 times, on Tower 3 chute, Alta Chutes, Expert Chutes, Paint Brush and Cheyenne Gully. It seemed like every run, me or my other buddy were carrying a ski down to him. At lunch he turned them up to 11 and didn't have any more problems.

It's ridiculous to say that higher speed and steep terrain don't apply higher forces to you bindings.

I don't crash a lot, but when I do, it's usually a spectacle to witness! I guarantee, my skis come off NO PROBLEM when they need to.
post #44 of 49
I can't help wondering what would happen if suddenly,one night in the wee small hours, the ski fairies magically changed everyones DIN so that the release/retention tensions remained the same but the numbers now all read 10 above the previous numbers! I'm sure some people would now feel more core riding with settings of 18 rather than 8. In the great words of Spinal Tap- "This one goes to eleven!"
post #45 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ME
No, it doesn't. Speed and terrain have nothing to do with the torques that will break bones in your lower leg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
So what you are saying is, no matter how fast you ski or what terrain you are on, there is no way that you will need your bindings set any higher than the "chart" calls for. Is that right? Are you seriously suggesting that?
If that is what I was saying, I probably would have typed it into my post. It isn't what I was saying, and I don't know why you think it is.
Quote:
It seemed like every run, me or my other buddy were carrying a ski down to him. At lunch he turned them up to 11 and didn't have any more problems.
What is your point, exactly? Your buddy doesn't try very hard in Wisconsin? Don't you have at least some steep stuff there?

The reason why it is worthwhile to use higher settings is that the consequences of losing a ski can be dire, even on a groomer. This is why I use higher than chart settings. I accept greater risk of lower leg injury in exchange for lower risk of pre-release. If you ever stopped to actually read the material the binding manufacturer gives you, you'd see it says exactly that about Type III. Going beyond the chart settings is simply taking that trade off further.
Quote:
It's ridiculous to say that higher speed and steep terrain don't apply higher forces to you bindings.
You should call up Vermont Ski Safety and tell them that. Of course, you probably know more about ski bindings than a firm started by the guy who invented the modern AFD. Higher speeds, IME, do require higher heel settings in practice. Toe settings not so much. If I was skiing SL competitively I'd use higher toe settings than the chart...in my freeskiing I have found little or no need to. At least in French bindings.
Quote:
people who know more than both of us combined[/url]]
All research efforts to date show that the magnitude of the load a skier applies to a modern binding toe piece decreases with speed (even during competition) and yet all problems of retention (inadvertent release) are blamed on the binding setting. Over time competitors at all levels employ ever increasing release settings, usually at both heel and toe, to address problems real or imagined. Setting increases are even precipitated by rumors of someone else's bad experience. This practice is dangerous and unnecessary.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School SL
In the great words of Spinal Tap- "This one goes to eleven!"
Exactly. Marker: Our bindings go to 30.

If you ski Markers and Looks at the same settings and don't come out of the Markers, you have the Looks set too high. Even the Look chart reflects that difference FFS.
post #46 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
If you ski Markers and Looks at the same settings and don't come out of the Markers, you have the Looks set too high. Even the Look chart reflects that difference FFS.
That's what I thought, based on all the rhetoric I have read on this site, so I had my Looks set on 10 until I hit some icy chatter and my ski popped off in a fast GS course. Now they are on 12 and I haven't had any problems since.

Let me just amend ALL my previous comments to say: MY bindings are set correctly for ME. I stay in when I need to stay in, and I release when I need to release. I arrived at my release setting incrementally. If my ski was releasing when it shouldn't, I turned it up. I have found a setting (I really could care less what the number in the window says) that is right for the conditions, terrain and speed that I ski.

My only point is that the setting that ends up being right for you may not be the same number that the chart recommends.

Garrett, your man-love for Look and Salomon is a little over the top. Those bindings work well for lots of people, yes. So do Markers and Tyrolia's and whatever else. How could Marker get to #1 in market share with such an obviously inferior product? Partnering with ski companies and producing "systems?" Well, what ski company would do that if they knew that Marker was so unsafe? It just doesn't make sense. I appreciate your anecdotal evidence, and your mention of Vermont ski safety, but you aren't exactly providing "evidence."

EDIT: I can't believe I'm trying to argue with a 23 year old..... there just isn't any sense in it.... sorry.
post #47 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
If my ski was releasing when it shouldn't, I turned it up. I have found a setting (I really could care less what the number in the window says) that is right for the conditions, terrain and speed that I ski.
Yes. Me too.
Quote:
My only point is that the setting that ends up being right for you may not be the same number that the chart recommends.
Yes, I agree. Which is why I've stated repeatedly that I accept some risk and set my bindings to what they need to be set at.
Quote:
How could Marker get to #1 in market share with such an obviously inferior product?
SRSLY? Superior marketing and business savvy. See: Microsoft. See also: Original VW Beetle. Also: Porsche 911. All products with obvious design deficiencies that did really well in the marketplace, often with those design problems sold by marketers as advantages.
Quote:
EDIT: I can't believe I'm trying to argue with a 23 year old..... there just isn't any sense in it.... sorry.
Wow, you really put me in my place there. I'm going to go back to my coloring book now. Enjoy Indiana.
post #48 of 49
FWIW, Garrett and UP, you're talking past each other. Yes, torque breaks bones, tears cartilage, and shears tendons, not terrain or speed. But yes, terrain and speed help dictate the amplitude, direction or abruptness of that torque relative to the release characteristics of the binding. Which is why slow twisting backward falls tend to occur more often in heavy pow than hardpack. You're both right. :

To the OP: I may have missed what injury you suffered. Agree that once you're experienced, you're qualified to make friends with any setup at even anatomically stupid settings. But that said, IMO different knees justify different bindings. Tyrolias are the best, period, for previously injured ligaments because the heel really makes a difference in backward twisting loads (sort of like a brace; they won't prevent an injury, but they'll help ease wear and tear later once the damage is done.) Old turntable Looks are the best for bones because of the alignment with the tibia; that and the elasticity may be why I see so many of them jury-rigged onto newer racing skis in my area. The newer versions are probably more precise, but I'm just getting into recreational racing and only use FKS Looks for that. OTOH, Marker plates are probably the dampest out there for ice, which means less bone to bone if that's where your cartilage is at, but few here are impressed with the heel for predictability. Sollies IMO are responsive, bombproof, and maintain such an ancient basic design that they should be reserved for totally healthy limbs; no extra help there. Don't have any experience with Atomics or Vists, but they're well-spoken about in terms of design. YMMV...Meanwhile, I'd put more energy into rehab right now.
post #49 of 49
Up to what I learned all binders set above 15 won't release if you don't really force it in the case of a crash, at least for my light weight. I've only been twice on binders that had around 18-20 as minimum setting (on race ski tests where the SG skis I wanted to test were only available with 20-30 types of binders). Luckily I never crashed with such binders but in case of a crash I would just try to smack the tails into the snow to get the skis of if needed, just like when purposely releasing binders set to lower din. For me prerelease is far more dangerous than high DIN.

So for the exception that the binders somehow were broke and didn't release I think any high DIN non release is more of user error than dependant on brand of binding.

I mostly snowboard though, but had some friends which had binding failures or ripped out inserts while carving, most managed to get the second binder off to somehow after the first had released (it's really not nice to have a raceboard only fixed to one foot in case of a fall). Luckily quality of binders and inserts or direct mounting has improved over the years so what happened quite often 10 years ago is now really rare.
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