Inside ski pressure ? weight on inside ski

Yes weight and pressure are two different things when you break it down.

You pressure a ski to make it turn.

You weight a ski to stay balanced.

Is it that simple?

I'd say that weighting is what is transmitted to the skis by the skier, and pressure is what is transmitted to the snow by the skis because weighting consists only of force, whereas pressuring is a combination of force/surface area...or something like that!

This is skiing not Engineering. Lets keep it simple.

Puhing down with your big toe will put pressure on the inside edge and cause it to engage the snow and begin to turn.

Heh, I know...personally I just find it easier sometimes to try and think of things in terms of the physics of what's happening - does this not lead to a greater understanding of why a technique is as it is?

If your mind works that way. I think for the office worker or non-tech. it's better to keep things simple.

Different things work for different people. And for the most part here we're trying to help many people.

BC, Good process if that works for you. But I like to keep things simple and enjoy the snow. I'm not an insturctor, but have been around you guys for years and give feed back to my instructor friends as much as they give me tips on how to ski better.

No offense... but this is another example of why PSIA sucks at developing skiers. Harsh - yes - but in this instance true.

I think you're actually onto something epic, because what purpose does telling someone to use pressure on their inside ski serve if that is going to be interpreted as "weight the inside ski?" My guess is we (being the collective wisdom of the Tech and Analysis Forum) could sit in here and argue the semantics of pressure versus weighting for weeks on end and more than likely accomplish nothing as far as making this particular skier "get it" so-to-speak.

Take the still image below for example:


How would your student/collegue interpret that image (post apex) in terms of the amount of "weight" on the inside ski? It is creating a spray, and the tip is deflected very slightly - but I can assure anyone who asks that there is almost no "weight" on that ski - meaning it is doing very little to keep me upright in the turn.

Perhaps that is the best way to describe "weight" versus "pressure." Weight implies that the ski is doing something to keep you upright, thus moving your balance point from being with the outside ski, to somewhere between your legs assuming your are adding weight to the inside ski. Balance with/against the outside ski should always be maintained - when weight is transferred to the inside ski, you lose that balance. The key to this is that "balance with the outside ski" does not equate to "100% of your weight on the outside ski."

Unfortuantely, to add confusion to the topic "pressure" and "weight" are used interchangably. Pressure is a lot closer to meaning that the ski is in contact with the snow but only has a minor to non-existant role in keeping the skier upright. Describing a turn (especially a carved turn) as a recipe of weight and/or pressure distribution between your feet is misleading. Weight/pressure will be distributed as needed if the skier focuses on keeping in balance with their outside ski - so the stance leg/ski has the right amount of weight/pressure at any given time during the turn.

I think that using the two terms interchangably is simple if you are using them to properly describe how a skier should maintain balance in the turn. If you are using one to describe one situation and the other to describe another situation it is confusing and really doesn't tell the skier anything about what they should be doing or feeling in a turn. Teach how to balance with the outside ski and pressure/weight distribution will take care of itself.

It sounds like your collegue could benefit a lot from one footed, pure carved turns on gentle groomers. Take away the inside leg entirely and teach him to ski carve his medium radius (I'd make him carve many different sized turns to be honest) turns without it. Mix in drills that will promote proper upper body movements to keep him from tipping over when only skiing on the outside ski. Make him use long transitions but where both feet only touch the snow for a split second - this will ensure that he isn't using the inside ski to start or end his turns.

Later

Greg

Here's the issue -- there are two things happening at the edges. First, if you are only touching the snow at those two edges, the combination of the vertical forces on the two edges has to add up to your body weight. To me, whatever vertical forces are acting through the edges constitutes a "weighted edge".

Second, there are lateral forces and accelerations happening. Greg's picture makes it obvious that his center of gravity (CG) is way to the inside of the edges. If he weren't in a turn, which brings a lateral acceleration, he'd topple over (or bust a gut trying not to). There are lateral forces on the edges that will offset the lateral acceleration. These constitute an edge pressure, in the sense that I think people talk about "pressure". In reality, that's the wrong word to use.

Anyway, in Greg's picture, envision vertical forces at the ski edges that counteract body weight, and envision lateral forces at the edges that counteract turns. Call the two whatever makes sense, but realize that they are two different forces doing two different things.

One of the problems identified in my skiing at ESA was a lack of weight or pressure on the inside ski. There are probably many reasons for it, but many times I track nearly entirely with the weight on the outside ski. One footed carving if you will. Charlie had us do an exercise where we kept a constant 80/20 weight distribution on the left or right ski, and maintain it through a series of turns. In effect, the uphill ski was weighted more in one direction, maintaining a light downhill ski, then weighting was more conventional turning the opposite direction. The objective of the exercise is to train for a more two footed feeling and balancing off either the uphill or downhill ski. The same exercise can be done using different weight distributions or primary weighted foot. I found it really helped me to ultimately get better control of my uphill ski, keeping two edges fully engaged at all times.

Thoughts?

Did you also try variations of javelin turns? It sounds like those might help a lot in recruiting his outside ski balance skills.

Another eye opener that might be helpful is to have him ski pure carved turns entirely on his inside ski and have him note what that does to his balance point and upper body position versus when he is doing javelin turns only on the outside ski.

Assuming the question is to me, my ski tips were observed diverging, particularly in turns to the right. Drawing back the uphill foot or changing my alignment to focus LESS on angulation and more on inclination was also done.

I have worked javalin turns before, but the exercise trying to keep constant weight on one side through a series of turns, really gave me an awareness of how to achieve a more two footed (and still outside dominate) stance.

That depends whether the pull back is the whole leg, or just the foot. the pull back we are talking about here more than likely is generated by the knee and ankle versus from the hip and femur.

So that raises an interesting thought... could "pressure" be exchanged with "engaged" in this instance and end up having more meaning to the student?

So, are we back to here?

Sort of... accept we are talking about the little toe edge of the inside ski.

Oh yea I realize that. I just didn't want to add to much...I think that kind of happens automaticly when you realize how to do the movement. I alway's tell frinds it a big toe little toe thing.

I wish most skiers that don't ski that often could realize how easy this really is when you learn what to do with the toes, feet, shins, knees and upperbody.

My wife tells me the same thing about dancing. :

This weight/pressure thing gets some people very confused. In fact, some get very twisted if they hear one of the terms used to describe something they firmly believe is representative of the other. Sorry, but I actually find it all a bit comical.

For any turn, our body (being driven by both gravity and momentum) will exert a specific amount of force to the snow. Call that total force pressure or weight, it makes no never-mind to me. The more important factor is to understand that we have complete freedom to manage how that total force is distributed across our skis, both on the lateral and fore/aft planes. The choices we make in how we distribute weight/pressure/load/force have great significance in how our skis perform, and our bodies support that performance. And the level of our ability to exercise that management has so much to do with our overall prowess as skiers.

More to come in a future thread, soon as I get the time to compose a presentation..

Rick, please keep it simple or you will loose people.

People trying to learn a new movement just need simple steps to get there. It's about skiing not talking.

When I'm in a lesson, even with Mike Rogan I told him how I learn, give me a clue and show me. Lets ski. I followed therusty which also helped me. Mike even give me a phase that really works for me. Whenever I make the same mistake his words come into my head, I will never forget what he said as long as I ski.

This, I think, is the key. Most skiers don't make a choice as to the pressure/weight distribution, rather it just happens to them. As the skier's ability to manage that distribution increases their overall skiing performance takes a huge jump.

I too find this issue a bit comical at times, but Weight and Pressure are two different concepts - that most people use interchangeably (and that's probably OK in skiing chat).

Weight is expressed by a single specified Unit-of-Measure and contains only that single qualifier: Pounds, Kilos, etc. Weight is historically a measure as taken specifically against the pull of Gravity - not Centrifugal force nor muscular extension/retraction movement, etc. 'Weight' is (Indirectly) a measure of Mass.

Pressure on the other hand is expressed by a pair qualifiers: Pounds-per-square-inch, Kilos-per-square-meter, etc. Pressure underfoot is directly related to weight when we're not moving. Once we're moving, the relationship between the two depends on exactly how we're moving.

The distinction is important when you look at ski-snow interaction because a flat ski has many more square inches of contact to distribute pressure than an edged ski does. Likewise using Independent Leg Steering to increase pressure on the engaged tips of our skis is more clearly described as a 'pressuring outcome' than a weighting outcome.

Keeping it simple is good but confusing the concepts and distorting the implications is not so good. I agree that we need to keep on-snow instruction simple but sometimes a few extra words on the chair prevents years of confusion and mis-application.

Epic didn't even suggest that PSIA had anything to do with his own student's statement.

PSIA is very clear about the difference between Weight and Pressure. If the student believes he needs to "...keep some [weight/pressure] on the Inside-Ski to keep it working on the snow..." - then he thinks correctly. Whether Epic saw too-much or too-little weight/pressure on it (overall) and wished to change things is another matter.

Skier219 - nice breakdown. You mention 'pressure' as being the wrong word to use. Is there any other term that might work? Perhaps the real issure here is 'pressure' aganst the Base vs. 'pressure' against the Sidewall of the ski (on that inside-ski)?

"Pulling back the Inside-Ski" has the effect of supporting our 'weight' more on the forebody of that ski. The act of pulling the inside-foot back transfers our weight forward - not to the outside-ski... in fact, to pull it back we actually have to shift out CM to the inside of the turn in order to bend the forebody of that ski and remain in balance. We're 'weighting' it *more* heavily when we pull it back.

If you don't believe this, try it on your own skis when standing in place. Try pulling either ski back and keeping its tail on the snow. I think you'll have no choice but to shift your upper body Mass to that side to accommplish the task and remain in balance.

.ma

No worries MC - Rick usually puts up some pretty good concept posts & threads spelling things out at length. Since this is an Internet Forum, we can't ski here anyway - just absorb ideas from text and images. Here, Better text = Better understanding.

Also, this kind of discussion is great for instructors because they need quite a bit more depth of understanding when doing movement-analysis and prescribing solutions. Using all available TechnoGeekery to figure out what's really going on and considering a wide number of possible solutions, the competent instructor transforms a potentially complex biomechanical movement needs of the student into a simple, very-targeted statement of change.

If Epic's student was leaning heavily onto the inside-ski then Big-Toe, Little-Toe suggestions are not a reasonable target for useful change. Perhaps "lift the inside Hip' or 'fold the upper-body over the outside-ski' might be more a appropriate training drill.

.ma

Thanks Michael, I know the benefit of having an instructor with a "full bag of tricks". I spent a number of hours helping a friend study for her Level III. We still discuss our skiing.

I use her as my mentor and she has someone she uses as her mentor. Someday may be I'll get close to skiing like him, yea, in my dreams...

I also look at skiing as a puzzle, with lots of pieces. I figure about a 1000 pieces. I figure I have about 880 pieces. The next 120 are the hardest to get. I have seen what it looks like when you have all the pieces, it's amazing.

When I arc and I'm on my edges I can easily lift my inside ski from the snow - am I screwed!?

epic,

I think of weight as the distribution of my mass between the feet (skis).
Pressure for me is the force I feel of the ski pushing back at me (a combined force).

RW

No, this means you pass with flying colors.