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Supination...For/Aft...Alignment...OR?

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I am a "supinator" if such a word exists...clearly evidenced by shoe wear on the outside edges BUT...my natural stance is weight far to the rear...again evidenced by wear on the heals of street shoes. I am using Full Tilt Bumble Bee Pros without foot beds. I have had the boots canted by sole grinding and I have to say 2 things. Finally no pain...numbness...discomfort of any kind...pure bliss...AND...I can finally use my inside edges properly!

Now the question is...How do I eliminate the natural rear weight bias in my stance?! I would hate to start messing with the interior of the boot as they are so dang comfortable. Eliminating the forward lean shim from the back of the boot has helped a bit (contrary to what I expected). What is the next step???
post #2 of 15
allen o'neill...

Quote:
I am a "supinator" if such a word exists...clearly evidenced by shoe wear on the outside edges
This is not a "symptom" of supinitory foot motion. More likely, you are pronatory.

Quote:
Now the question is...How do I eliminate the natural rear weight bias in my stance?!
If there is in fact a fore/aft bias, you need to be assessed by a recommended bootfitter well versed in fore/aft issues. Here's a few strategies:

1) Boot board "delta" adjustment
2) Boot sole "delta" adjustment
3) Binding "delta" adjustment
4) Upper cuff issues/ liner height (height or anatomically incorrect shaping)
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
Interesting...I was always under the impression that "pronator's" ankles rolled to the inside..."supinators" to the outside. In any event...as I mentioned above...i would prefer not to mess with the inside of the boot as truly I have never been so comfortable. Can you guys suggest a procedure for experimenting with binding delta...so I can get a feel for where I am going with this?
post #4 of 15
Quote:
I was always under the impression that "pronator's" ankles rolled to the inside..."supinators" to the outside.
What happens at the "ankle" level does not necessarily dictate this result at the plantar level.

Changing binding delta creates stand height differential which in turn will affect fore/aft bias. I think you'd better leave this one to the pro's (binding interface issues) At least have the binding checked for function.

I think you'd have an easier time first investigating what can be done at the boot shell/liner level. You can do things which are "reversible".

Try a "rudimentary" test by placing shims under the boot sole while standing on a flat surface. Try a 1/8" or 1/4" shims under the toes or heels and see what the result is. Remember, this test will not account for binding delta.

Why don't you have a footbed/orthiotic in this boot?
post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
I will reply to your last question first. I do not have a foot bed or orthotic because with the Intuition liners the theory is that the liner sole acts as such. The boots do not come with a foot bed at all. I have tried various foot beds as well as custom orthotics and frankly this is the first time I have total comfort. I am not sure if there would be room for an additional foot bed let alone anything thicker.

As far as binding function etc. I have access to a shop tech at will. As far as boot fitters with understanding of alignment...for / aft balance...well that is a rarity around Montreal. It was hard enough to find anyone who could do the canting.

What I am very curious about is the following. I have to make a very concious effort to get my weight off my heels when I ski. Should I therefore be adding height beneath my heel to shift my weight forward? When I had my canting done the slope necessary to move my knee back into alignment over my boot toe (from way outside) was the exact opposite of what I expected. So I am wondering where to start.
post #6 of 15
Alan,

Perhaps I can help?

what bindings are you using?
what is your boot sole length?
How tall are you?

With this info I can get a better picture of your fore/aft alignment without seeing you in person and can make suggestions.

There are ways you can experiment with external fore/aft without making permanent changes. Once you find the right combo the permanent changes can be made by your boot fitter or tech.

bud
post #7 of 15
Thread Starter 
Thanks Bud!

I am a shade over 5'10" and weight 205lb. generally quite fit...very strong calf muscles. My boots are 310mm sole length. I have numerous skis...all with different bindings...however I think I would give my Fischer AMC 79's with Railflex bindings a try first as I use them most often. I find they ski best when I force my weight to stay over my arches.
post #8 of 15
Allan,

How would you rate your flexibility?
Do you have a high arch?
post #9 of 15
Thread Starter 
Flexibility in general is very good. My Left ankle is a bit less movement due to a very old skiing injury. Arches are pretty average ih height under the arch...but my feet are very thick in the arch area.
post #10 of 15
Allan,

How's your range of motion @ the ankle joint? (dorsilflexion)
Is your ankle joint looser or tighter?
Is this feeling of a biased heel area isolated to this boot or have you had this problem previously?
What type of bootfitting was needed (if any) to make this boot comfortable?
post #11 of 15
Thread Starter 
The range of motion is very good...although slightly diminished in the left due to being in a cast for 6 months. Overall I would say that my degree of motion is more than sufficient to get my knees over the toes of my boots. This problem is present regardless off the boots I use. As I mentioned before, I walk on my heels as well.
post #12 of 15
Allan,

When your in the boot, at what point in your flex pattern do you feel your weight transfer from your heels to your balls of your feet? (1st met head) You can do this rudimentary test on a flat floor with your boots on and snapped into your bindings. If you release the first and second buckle(starting from the toe buckle), does the transfer happen quicker or differently?
post #13 of 15
Thread Starter 
Could u please tell me how to describe "where in the flex pattern" and I will reply back.
post #14 of 15
I want to know where your weight is when you're in a neutral position, (no forward pressure on the tongue and no backward pressure on the back of the liner).

I also want to know when the heel pressure starts to transfer more toward the front of your foot as you put more pressure into the tongue.(flexing the boot) Does it seem you need to overflex the boot for this shift to happen?

As I asked in an earlier post, does this pressure or timing of the shift change as the boot is loosened at the toe and instep buckles.
post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan o'neil View Post
Thanks Bud!

I am a shade over 5'10" and weight 205lb. generally quite fit...very strong calf muscles. My boots are 310mm sole length. I have numerous skis...all with different bindings...however I think I would give my Fischer AMC 79's with Railflex bindings a try first as I use them most often. I find they ski best when I force my weight to stay over my arches.

There are four parameters that I look at in the fore/aft plane:

1) boot board ramp angle - affects location of cm. and is one aspect of "net forward lean" equation. This angle can be changed to better match your ankle range of dorsiflexion. (less dorsiflexion needs a more open ankle joint or less "net forward lean", while a hypermobil r.o.m. needs less ramp and more forward lean to create a greater "net" forward lean.

2) forward lean of shaft - affects amount of ankle and knee flexion (more fwd lean equals more flexed joints, less equals less. This angle also affects where the knee plumbs over the ski. Contrary to popular belief, changing forward lean does not move your com forward or back. Forward lean is the other half of the formula which determines "net" forward lean (fwd lean less ramp angle = net forward lean).

3) Delta angle - is created by the stand height differential of the heel and toe pieces of the bindings. Different binding manufacturers and models create different angles which need to be considered in the whole fore/aft scenerio. Your boot sole length also has an affect on this angle because the smaller the boot sole the steeper the angle, and the longer the boot sole the shallower the angle, created by the same binding. The delta angle affects where the knee plumbs as well as the amount of flexion and the location of the com. It does not change the net forward lean at all.

4) Binding placement is the fourth consideration which noticeable affects where the sweet spot of the ski is located under the boot which in turn determines where you need to stand on the ski to affect the best turning. This is not easily experimented with unless you have demo bindings which allow independant heel and toe placement along the ski. In general the most universally accepted positioning tends to be placement of the ball of your foot on the center of the running surface as a good starting position.


SOOOoo. when considering all these parameters and systematically adjusting them, one can find their optimum position over the skis. In your situation, "muscular calves" (may create more forward lean), 310mm boot sole (medium), and Tyrolia Railflex bindings (medium stand height differential) it is difficult to say there is anything grossly out of the norm but I would suggest experimenting with a piece of 3mm thick bontex insole shim placed between your toe AFD and boot toe. This will pull your whole boot more upright creating a slightly taller stance and more shin to tongue pressure on the boot. Try skiing this way for a few runs then try the shim between your boot heel and binding. you should notice a marked difference and perhaps prefer one way vs. the other. If you prefer the way this lift feels a boot lifter can be permanently affixed to your boot sole and the toe or heel lug routed accordingly to return the boot to DIN specs.

hope this helps your understanding of what is possible.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ask the Boot Guys › Supination...For/Aft...Alignment...OR?